No. It's pure hate. It's the only truly indefensible design I've ever seen. The game plain sucks and that opinion is close to unanimous.

Love them both. The Stern IJ4 is fine, just because it doesn't have 30 million different combo shots doesn't make it bad. If there is anything bad about it is the backglass. Seriously, look at Indy's face on there, even he thinks its garbage! Other than that, its a great machine with a nice, friendly enough playfield design with fantastic music and sounds, and the Ark is one of the best gimmicks there is.

That being said, the Williams version is better.

The williams version is a lot more fun with some decent flow, dual ramps, and really decent ruleset. The stern one is just ok with a ton of stop and go. Just about every shot stops the ball for an uninteresting Dmd animation. The 8 ball arc mb is really near but that's sort of it. The game isn't horrible. But it's not that great and for the money you can do way better.

Pretty extreme. Consider this disputed.

I'll take a huo stern ij4 junk heap for two, Alex.

Williams way better.

Possible worst machine evar.

Love them both and the Stern kills the Williams in earning with the general public, its the first one they go to time and again.

No brainer, the Williams Indy is the winner here by a absolute mile.

Is it possible the stern version gets an update for the code someday?

Agreed. It's horrible on almost every level. The ark is cool to see for the first couple of times...that's about it. It's one of the few pins that I've gotten bored of and just don't even want to finish my game, let alone the Replay I've won. I'm not really into Williams one either, but I enjoy playing it in other people's collections... it's a well designed and interesting machine that uses the theme well.

The reason you don't see that many is because A.) Stern didn't make that many B.) The homeowners who DO have it probably aren't the Pinside types...they're probably perfectly happy with their one game next to the pool table w/ a theme they like...that non-collector pin owner probably thinks it's fine...they're in no rush to sell it.

The features I like on the stern game are the rising and lowering scoops with capture balls and the ark multiball. That is were it really ends for me. Just an average game for the most part.

I really enjoy the Williams version for every other reason.

If there is a choice I think WMS is a no brainer comparison here.

I do think that the Stern game could have been awesome with a code update to do certain things differently, like using the amazing raising and lowering captive ball thing in a different way. Having said that, I really like the layout of that game, and it has that 'one more game' thing to me, although I can honestly say that I don't know why. If I see it in a line up with say Spider-Man and Family Guy, two games I will tell you are better, I'll play IJ4 first.

I'll also tell you that I would put an IJ4 in my house ANY DAY before I put an IJ in my house. I *love* the Indiana Jones theme, and I have a ton of Indiana Jones stuff up even in my game room, but I cannot stand the Williams version mostly due to the fact that it has THREE video modes. With few exceptions, I *hate* video modes more than just about anything else, and IJ triples down on that. I find the layout also pretty slow and overall, the game just to be dull.

I *wish* I liked either enough to own them, it would be nice to hang up all my IJ stuff near a machine...

I believe you-

Why do you think that is? The Williams one faded and looks older? Just curious.

I have a Stern and it's a fine pin. There is a lot of stop and go so the flow isn't very good, especially with the holy grail shot over and over again. The game is very attractive and is a big draw for the non pinhead. The sound is awesome, the field is attractive (better looking than the Williams IJ IMO), the gimmicks are neat (temple of doom and ark MB) again, great for the non pinhead. It is no surprise to me the Sterns is a bigger money maker with the general public.

As for the Williams, I am not a fan. I Have played several to try and understand the appeal. It's overrated IMO. But that is just one persons opinion.

I can give you some insight... Ark Multiball is easy to obtain and looks really interesting. it's a great "first quarter getter". The gameplay is then simple enough that you can really understand what is going on just by playing it once or twice.

The best earning games combine simplicity with rule complexity - ie MM, POTC, IM, etc. You have a very obvious goal - hit castle, ship or raise Monger - that you can see before the game starts. Then, you have an obtainable goal that does something cool.

For IJ4, you can get that Ark Multiball pretty easily, and that's a great hook for new players. It's visible enough that you know something cool is going to happen. And, it's got a great theme. I've heard that the ones around here earn *outstandingly* too, probably a big part of the reason you never see them for sale.

Maybe not worst ever, but definitely worst 2K Stern...for reasons I've already ranted about in other threads. Both the physical layout and rule design needed a lot more development time than it received. IJ4 still earning well on location is a depressing thought, since it means Joe Blow's intro to the genre is from such a super low bar (and I never see one on location lasting more than a few hours before the auto-ball feed for the ark screws up and it is stuck searching for balls...which makes me wonder how many quarters are dropped just to find out the thing isn't working).

Williams IJ, on the other hand, is an entire planet apart. Not the greatest ever, but at least its overall design is a lot more refined in comparison to IJ4. Bonus for it not containing any reference to the crappy Crystal Skull movie.

I haven't played the stern version yet, but I don't care for the Williams Indy. Slow, long and boring IMO. But if it was free or cheap I'd take one..just wouldn't pay they're current high price for one at the moment.

I am also in that odd category. I like Sterns version better. I can understand the complaints, but its a game I go back to over and over for some reason.

I enjoy both games. I own a williams ij and find the game great fun the modes are interesting, and the multiball is great fun. Artwork is very nice and the music is outstanding of course. On the negative side the game is a little cramped for a wide body with some wasted space. The only long shot is to the captive ball and I wish there was at least one more longer shot in the game. Overall I really like it, a classic williams game. Plus my wife loves the game and its a big hit with non pinheads at parties

Ij4 is the game that got me back into pinball. I played the game a lot at wdw when it was new. As with the williams game the theme intergration is great with all the music, sounds and new are the video clips (which in the home environment I could see getting old). I like the artwork on the playfield and cabinet. The layout is pretty good. My main problem with the layout is all the stand ups that surround the ark and don't really do anything. I think mr borg could have moved the placement of the ark a little and gotton rid of the stand up banks to make room for one more shot maybe a second ramp. Also, the code feels unfinished and I don't like the 1,2,3,4 for the scenes - they could have at least named them. But overall I like this game too and for the right price I'd pick one up

I also have to agree with dan, when I see ij4 on location I usually play it first and for awhile

I own the Williams version and have played the Stern in public many times.

I found the Stern to be just uninspired. They could have done more with the map room feature, I think. The cairo swordsman just needed to be a "bash" toy like Balrog on LOTR. Didn't like the single "Avatar like" ramp either. Ark mb is one of the coolest mb's I have seen though.

I do like the movie audio clips on both machines. However, the modes, design and overall fun factor have to go to the Williams IJ for me.

Williams IJ for me!

Williams IJ sucks bad. I'd take a Sterns IJ over B/W any day. But neither are worth a damn in the grand scheme of things. I can think of 50 other games i'd rather have.

OP, add a poll to this post, apparently from the responses, The opinion that IJ4 totally sucks @ss is not as unanimous as some may think. I personally think Williams IJ is much better. But for the right price, I may be interested in a IJ4.

I would, except only a newbie or a contrarian would defend IJ4, with a few limited exceptions. I did say ALMOST unanimous, after all. Remember, folks, there are about 25 standup targets on IJ4. Some of them do NOTHING. Not even 10 points. Indefensible. That Cairo swordsman? A POS, for sure. The modes don't even have NAMES, for heaven's sake. And to have to hit anything upwards of 100 times in a game to see the wiz mode is just plain stupid. I haven't even mentioned the loop that drops into a kickout hole. Rookie design mistakes abound, combined with lazy, half-assed software make IJ4 one to avoid. Buy one at your own risk. Unless you're paying sub-$2k, you risk losing $ when you finally realize you, too, abhor it.

Williams version is much much much much better. I agree w/ pinlawyer.....you would have to pick up the stern version for pretty cheep to justify buying IMO. Even then I would not....

Someone else coined the term "Golden Turd" for IJ4, and I think it's appropriate, for the litany of reasons already submitted. Unless there was some opportunity to flip an IJ4 for serious profit, I would never consider buying it, and would certainly not want to own it in a collection. Further, it feels like work when I've had to play it in a competitive environment.

Williams IJ is a far superior pin -- provided that it's in good working condition.

That being said, IJ4 seems to get played an awful lot more than the Williams IJ sitting next to it at Pinballz in Austin. So earnings-wise, IJ4 > Williams IJ.

I like both, both there's no comparison as to which one is better.

William>Stern by a mile in this case...

Stern's IJ is junk in comparison.

^^^This. It is awful on so many levels. It's like the came up with the ark and decided to stop there. It is so boring and reptitive, it is almost painful and the scoring is some of the most unbalanced in all of pinball.

In all fairness to Borg, I read the Gameroom Magazine article on the game where he talks about what they wanted to do, Crystal Skull ramp was going to be a Temple of Doom mine cart ramp and such, but they were not allowed to.

I own both and like both. I agree with most that WMS is the better game. I was going to sell the IJ4 right after I picked it up because of the lack of love by my pinhead peers. But then it grew on me and I decided that I don't give a rat's behind what others think about it. I like it and will keep it.

Tom

Like comparing a Ferrari to a Yugo, and I don't think I have to say which is which WMS IJ deserves it's place in the top 10, IJ4 deserves it's at the bottom.

Crack is a very bad thing. Please explain to me what sucks about Williams IJ?

Is it the most playable modes of any machine ever made? Is it the three video modes, which are all fairly good, as far as vid modes go? Is it the possibly best mini PF, which is used in multiple ways for different aspects of play and modes? Is it the loop person combos that can be built, which is another addition to the depth of this machine? Maybe it’s the great artwork, widebody design used perfectly, or the well used and themed toys? Possibly you don’t like the narrow escape that adds another bit of uniqueness to this machine. Maybe it’s the amazing sound package, and DMD animations, likely some of the best for WPC machines.

The machine is a super fast with ramps and orbit returns and plays amazingly. I have never understood how some people don’t love this game.

Despite this, I’m SUPER interested to hear its flaws, please hammer away...

I HATE the video modes, and three relatively easily accessible video modes is just stupid. On certain games, one video mode ruins it for me (Tommy, I'm lookin' at you), and the three on IJ are alone enough to make me really annoyed by it.

I don't like the mini playfield at all. It seems like a half thought through idea to me that just feels like it should have had something else.

The game is a giant fan layout that seems to operate much slower than a regular game with a fan layout.

I agree with you that it has great art and music, and I like the gun to start the game, but beyond those three things - none of which have to do with gameplay - I just cannot stand the game.

There is more that I know that I don't like about it, but I haven't played one in a while and I'm forgetting what that is exactly right now. But, I've played them multiple times, been offered them cheap, and can't pull the trigger because I just don't like it at all.

Sorry. And like I said, I'm a huge Indy fan - I have a TON of stuff from the Disneyland ride, including a giant framed poster print of it in my basement, but there is no way that I would ever own a Williams IJ.

It would take me a lot to own a Stern one too to be fair, but I really honestly do like it far more than the Williams one.

I think a huge problem with the Williams Indy is that if you play a clunker that isn't clean/dialed in, it can really suck. Ramps are super tough to hit, the mode start saucer is a pain in the ass, and the mini playfield can just plain not work properly.

Granted, a poorly maintained machine can ruin the experience of pretty much any game, but I've seen people hate on IJ because they've never played a clean, dialed-in one.

I own both and while the Williams IJ is my favorite pin of all time, I actually like the Stern too. The way to have fun with the Stern is to put all of the modes to extra easy - it actually makes the wizard mode seem almost attainable.

I would kill for an IJ Stern code update, even if it was a fan-made thing. If only I had the skill.

Just for my reference point, I know three people that keep their games immaculate and in perfect working order that have them, and those are the games that I have based my experience on. I generally will ask people when I don't understand the allure of a game to explain to me what I'm missing, and even with that having been done, I still don't "get" IJ at all.

Having said that, I like a lot of stupid crap that other people don't... not to be "contrarian," but I tend to really like games that the majority of people don't, and I tend to not like games that the majority of people do. I've had a lot of chances in this hobby to pick up games like IJ too, I just would rather get games that I want more...

...remember, VND is one of my top 4 games of all time. I'm not normal.

You have a very large playfield, which you play about 27% of. Only the middle center really is useable. The saucer kicks out about 50% of your shots. The whole upper left is taken up by this shitty POA that is a total piece of shit. The right side is taken up by a cool ball lock, but takes up way to much space. So what you have to actually play is 2 ramps, saucer, 4 drop targets and a loop. Just not fun. Could have so much more going for it. Playfield design is terrible. Sounds are great. I had a super nice one, wanted to like it so bad, because I love the movies. But the more I played it, the more I hated it. Ended up trading it for another CV. I'd rather have 2 CV's than to have 1 IJ sitting in my house. That's how much it sucked.

You really this that 70"s art inspired Williams
Indiana jones is a good fame? Crappy artwork
Design could easily done in a standard body. The plane
Toys are some of the cheapest Williams made.

The stern is far superior in looks, the general public prefers
It if they are side by side any day and are rewarded with the ark multi ball
Fairly soon. It actually is very deep and have not found
Anyone that has gotten to let alone finished the
Final adventure. I put it in my arcade new and it has yet
To slow down earnings. While cactus, medieval and other top Williams
Games fell by the wayside and were sold because of bad earnings

To be fair, goals that are basically impossibly difficult for no good reason don't really make a game deep, just unbalanced. It's cool to have a super deep goal like that if the rest of the game is great (IM), but IJ4 doesn't have that.

I would plop 50 cents into yours if it was near me right now though.

Have u had a Ferrari? I bet the Yugo Is more reliable

Not true, IJ4 does not suck, it's just as stated above, not finished! It has some cool shots and multi-balls, spinners and captive ball/s. I asked John Borg about this, and he confirmed it was a licensing issue, that they gave them very little to work with, especially in regards to the 4th film.

It's really strange to say that one is so much better than the other, because while one is incomplete (ij4) the other is a one trick pony (lock multi-ball, repeat for the real points) I would say that the Williams version probably has better build quality, but they are both two fun pins overall.

I will say this- IJ4 is one of the hardest pins on the planet to complete. The number of hits to complete each of the modes is insane. I never did complete it while I had mine, but posted 500 million plus for score and came close. I really wanted to bad too.
Williams IJ, I could beat every now and then if the kickout hole was behaving.

As far as not seeing too many for sale, they didn't make many of them. I thought I heard 1500, but who knows for sure.

Is your arcade the Bene Pizza Paste at Omaha? Me and a friend of mine are planning an eventual 4 hour road trip up there just for the arcade.

Yes come on in, ill make sure to feed u well. We just had the joust
World record holder in to turn our machine over.

Who is the joust World record holder? Just curious as I know a guy from Iowa who has claimed that he was.

Machines with two flippers for the most part have fan layouts, as shots are for the most part only accessible via the flippers. Name me another mini PF that is as interactive and used in so many modes and other ways than this one? How is it shitty? It turns, it has two drop holes depending on what you are doing. Pretty well thought out for a mini if you ask me.

As for the saucer issue, well, rebuild it and tune it. Mine is about 95% good. Since your comparisons are for CV, the CV juggler saucer for the first ball lock is more or less useless unless you have the pinbits modded piece that keeps it where it should be. That is a factory issue as well, the IJ saucer is from years of poundings with the strongest flippers.

As far as wasted space and limited shots, I complete disagree, and you note CV as a better choice? I have CV as well, but there are about 4 shots in that game, and a vast amount of wasted space in the juggler area and that stupid contained ball area. And this isn't a fan layout??

I'm not bashing CV, I love it too, but CV is no IJ in my opinion.

They are all well implemented into the them, they are all challenging (provided you set them on difficult), and knowing all the vid modes out there, which for the most part I do not like in pinball, and hate most myself, these have to be considered some of the best. I'm not claiming I like vid modes, but these are fun to play FOR a vid mode.

Lonnie Mcdonald, Google him

Seems too easy. I got over a 100M on my very first game on IJ4, at an arcade at, RIP, Point Pleasant on the Jersey Shore. I didn't want to play the replay. I have played it many times since, and although there are things about the game I like, much like TDK, it just gets repetitive and boring. Talk about long ball times!

But Ark 8-ball MB is, and will always be, rad!

least with CV you use the whole playfield. Your not confined to this lower center playfield because of all these big things that take up so much space. And I don't know what your talking about the juggler lock mod. I don't have one, and never had a problem with the juggler not catching and tossing the balls over to the other saucer. Have no idea there is a problem there.

As far as POA goes. It's a piece of shit. It's useless. The controls are clunky and you really don't have any control over anything. It's to steep for what it is. I can think of many mini playfields that blow that one out of the water. TZ is far superior in every way, SOF, Shadow, TSPP and others I can't think of right now. For what it does, it is useless. It would be just as fun if it didn't move at all and could bounce around some instead. Like pinbot or LOTR.

I like Williams IJ, but I have to agree that the mini playfield was too steep for good (or much of any) ball control when I set the playfield at the recommended angle. I then messed around with shimming the angle of the mini playfield to a less steeper angle, and I came up with an angle that makes the mini playfield quite enjoyable. It's not super easy to flip the ball from side to side, but it's doable when your timing is spot on.

If I had to leave the mini playfield at the stock angle, I'd be super bummed with it.

Jeff R.

I've only played Stern IJ on location 30-40 times and Williams IJ in people's collections 10-15 times. My preference is CERTAINLY for Stern IJ.

I've recently set my playfields to 6 degrees on my DMD pins, starting with our new IJ. I also eased the outlane post settings. The family appreciates the games so much more that they can last longer and see more of the modes , etc.. Prior to that I used stock angle which was usually 6.5 degrees, or more to make it more challenging for me. I live, I learn.

Brian