Eugene, OR
Quoted from FlippyD:The foil looks awesome!
https://www.facebook.com/sternpinball/videos/600176774680200/
Wow those are beautiful!
(Topic ID: 300431)
Possibly the get connected app could work to encourage location play. The more you play on location the more priority you get for locking in a LE
Get rid of the limited number deal.
Make 750 or 1000 or whatever. THe fact that these LE's sell out before being released even if you are on a list or not shows there is a demand. To make 1000 machines and half or whatever go over seas leaves a small number left to the people is the USA.
To me it is like buying a car, you want entry level buy this brand (Pro), you want more features buy this level (premium), if you want all the bells and whistles and want to spend more for the top of the line it is the LE's....not a limited number.
If they make 1000 machine and sell out within less then 1 hour or less without the rest of the pinball community getting in on it, that is bad for the hobby.
Forget the limited number, after 1000 sell out, just make another 500, if that sells out make a another run of 300. It is easy found money, less cut throat, it gets rid of the flippers and the distributors that hang on to them and are already selling them higher then what Stern has them listed for even after one day.
I think Stern should have a special order line to add extras to the premium, a la carte. You want a shaker installed plus sides art installed and maybe the better side rails or to have the rails already powder coated. Or give the option to buy all the different back glasses.
If JJP released another 500 POTC LE's, they would sell out real quick.
Keith's machines (IMO) are awesome, I hope they let hime and the other awesome pinball guy they hired (not John Borg, not Brian Eddy, not George Gomez)(sorry, I don't know his name)...let them loose.
Loved Steve Richie, but they need new blood and to me Godzilla looks awesome....LE or premium...
Just my 2 cents...
Quoted from pinballplusMN:Possibly the get connected app could work to encourage location play. The more you play on location the more priority you get for locking in a LE
What? They LE is specifically for home market. If people are paying $10k to have the games in their home, what would be the point of pushing them to a location? That really makes no sense to me at all.
Quoted from bigchief99:Get rid of the limited number deal.
Make 750 or 1000 or whatever. THe fact that these LE's sell out before being released even if you are on a list or not shows there is a demand. To make 1000 machines and half or whatever go over seas leaves a small number left to the people is the USA.
To me it is like buying a car, you want entry level buy this brand (Pro), you want more features buy this level (premium), if you want all the bells and whistles and want to spend more for the top of the line it is the LE's....not a limited number.
If they make 1000 machine and sell out within less then 1 hour or less without the rest of the pinball community getting in on it, that is bad for the hobby.
Forget the limited number, after 1000 sell out, just make another 500, if that sells out make a another run of 300. It is easy found money, less cut throat, it gets rid of the flippers and the distributors that hang on to them and are already selling them higher then what Stern has them listed for even after one day.
I think Stern should have a special order line to add extras to the premium, a la carte. You want a shaker installed plus sides art installed and maybe the better side rails or to have the rails already powder coated. Or give the option to buy all the different back glasses.
If JJP released another 500 POTC LE's, they would sell out real quick.
Keith's machines (IMO) are awesome, I hope they let hime and the other awesome pinball guy they hired (not John Borg, not Brian Eddy, not George Gomez)(sorry, I don't know his name)...let them loose.
Loved Steve Richie, but they need new blood and to me Godzilla looks awesome....LE or premium...
Just my 2 cents...
I think you don't understand why the LE market works. LIMITED. That is why they are worth more.
Sydney
Quoted from woody76:Raise the price of the LEs to $20k sold directly from Stern (no distro) and do 1000 of them. Then lower the price of the pro and pre for use common folk.
Best idea ever - just make LEs ludicrously expensive and lower the pro/premium costs. It makes them super exclusive, those who really want their bling will pay for it regardless, while the rest of us actually take some sort of benefit from it.
Note: Only as long as they keep premiums the same game with the same gameplay features (I can totally foresee LEs getting extra ramps/toys/mechs or something if they went this route). 
Quoted from FlippyD:The single best way to prevent flipping is to adjust pricing till it's perfect. The spot where it's so high you simply can't flip it, but it's not so high that nobody buys it.
Unfortunately this is an incredibly hard thing to adjust right. I literally think Stern could sell the LE's for $18k and they would still get listed for $20k.
Any silly shit like enforcing terms of ownership is gonna get laughed out of court and never be a real tactic you can use.
I just posted the same. LEs should be $20k direct from Stern.
Change the words from "limited edition" to collectors edition. You don't need to raise the price becuase you like the extra features. Just make more. Eventually after doing a couple of runs, everyone will get what they wanted. Then when they stop making them, then the price should climb over time if you waited too long to buy one. People with cash/credit cards that want to buy something should not be subjected to endless phone calls.....dealing with flippers.
Quoted from 80sMan:Maybe, but things are changing now.. true fans were able to secure LE's. There's tons of flipping going on. Allow insider access to buy LE's, limited to 1, Stern makes money on more memberships, less flipping.
Why less flipping? If I'm going to make $2000-$3000 on a flip, you don't think I would spend $40 to sign up for a second insider account?
Is this your first rodeo with scalpers??
Quoted from 80sMan:Then they could make as many LE's as the demand for those few days.. after that? Let the last 500 go to the distributors and they can do whatever they want with them, like charge $20,000.. plus they'll still sell a ton of Premium's and Pro's.. so everyone wins.
Again, once you goto 'make as many...' you've sunk the majority of the model. The reason why we moved from "I wonder if the LE upgrade is worth it..." two years ago to "The LE is sold out on rumors alone!!!" today is because people are racing each other to fight for a limited spot. No limited spots, no such pre-sale demand.
Quoted from Speedracer773:Sure you're right in that respect. I get it from their point of view, but I'm the buyer, the customer.
Who is trying to recommend how a business runs without taking into account why the business does what it does. You want better access as a customer.. better access isn't necessarily in the interest of the guy selling it.
Quoted from Speedracer773:All I want is the ability to buy the product at the price decided by Stern
Welcome to the hobby - Pro Tip - don't buy NIB and don't buy LEs NIB. 95% of these games are being sold to home use buyers and a large portion of those are going to sell that very game with almost no use on it in <3 years.
Quoted from Speedracer773:Regardless of the way, I believe there is a better way for more people to get an LE and not get ripped off by someone in between jacking up the price. I think the idea of one per household makes sense - I think 80sMan is onto something.
Another easily defeated limitation... I'll ship to my next door neighbor. To my office, to my kids house, whatever.
You aren't going to artifically make the games accessible to everyone while the game is still in such demand. The only thing you can do is try to level the playing field, by doing things like lotteries, access, etc.. but as long as the demand exceeds supply, there will be a market for resale and there will be scarcity.
Increasing supply to the point of diminishing demand is counter to the interest of the manufacturer
Quoted from flynnibus:Again, once you goto 'make as many...' you've sunk the majority of the model. The reason why we moved from "I wonder if the LE upgrade is worth it..." two years ago to "The LE is sold out on rumors alone!!!" today is because people are racing each other to fight for a limited spot. No limited spots, no such pre-sale demand.
I think this is the key point people are missing. The stuff on the LE isn't enough to justify the upgrade every time. For some people, for some machines it is, but not for the big collectors every time. Making it limited adds the extra incentive that makes it sell out every time.
Maybe put a sandbag or two inside of the machine if you are having an issue with it flipping? Not sure as I’ve never had this issue with my LE but it makes sense to me.
All of this screams Inflation. Just be careful of what you wish for, folks! And I hope you like the price increases! 
Quoted from starfighter:15 Mandalorian (LE) for sale on Pinside as I type this. Same thing will happen to Godzilla LE when BTTF LE is announced.
It's the Pinside Circle of life ... you see Simba ... we eat the grass.....
15. Of 750. On the most popular and logical place to sell a high end machine.
Quoted from porkcarrot:15. Of 750.
True, but they are available right now and someday Godzilla LE will be as well. The market ebbs and flows, but never dries up.
Quoted from starfighter:True, but they are available right now and someday Godzilla LE will be as well. The market ebbs and flows, but never dries up.
My point was people are acting like flipping is a huge problem. It is happening, but i don't think it is as wide spread as people think.
Why not just announce the games for the upcoming year in October at Pinball Expo at the Stern Party? I tend to think that it would create a ton of hype and that way people could plan their purchases instead of flipping their LE's to get the next one that they didn't know they wanted till it was announced. (sorry for the run-on sentence - I'm dictating this post)
There would still be excitement about the pending game playfield reveal and people would create a second go-round of hype around that event. Keep Stern on their minds all year long.
What if Stern held a raffle and let 100 people buy an LE for $100? Sure it would cost them a bunch of money and make absolutely no business sense, but it would make those 100 customers happy and isn't that all that matters to a pinball company?
Overall I'm just suggesting there may be a better way to let others, that aren't so well connected to the distributors, have an opportunity to buy an LE. I don't believe the chaos is all planned. (Although it sounds like some do) Are the owners manuals with multiple typos and wrong information planned? is it part of their plan to sow FOMO chaos in the market? Are the production delays always intentional? or are they mistakes they work around? I'm not really arguing these points just pointing to some spots were it seems things are in less than an ideal state.
I'm not trying to bash Stern. I like their pins. Plus my exposure to their customer service has been good and helpful. I think lot a lot of companies, they do the best they can. I'm just suggesting that there maybe a better way to sell LEs, Whatever that way may be. Or perhaps backglass and side art / extras (I think they look much nicer than translites), I can see someday finding that special pin and wanting all the goodies. extras art etc.
If nothing else this demand will certainly create more opportunities for other companies and more competition. Figuring out a good way keep customers and fans of your products loyal to your brand is a good way to keep business. Most of us can't just buy a new pin every few months. If company ABC makes a nicer pinball machine that plays great, for less money....well I might just go spend my cash over there - "besides I don't have much of a real chance to get an LE right?"
I think like a lot of things there is some room in the middle. A way for more customers to get more loaded pins, Stern to make more money from those pins, and the distributors still happy so everyone wins, more. I'm not suggesting anyone give up anything, or give away anything. Rather just think about a better way, that benefits everyone, a bit more evenly.
How about this as another idea? Stern produces the LE with a number and COA etc and a version unnumbered but still with the back glass art package powder coat etc. Mr or Ms Limited Exclusive collector still gets the exclusive and other folks could get the upgrades without buying from a flipper? Or any other numerous ideas / suggestions.
Quoted from woody76:Raise the price of the LEs to $20k sold directly from Stern (no distro) and do 1000 of them. Then lower the price of the pro and pre for use common folk
I sort of like it, turn the LE into Stern's version of Supreme. Hell, make it $30k. For wealthy people it will make no difference.
Then DITCH THE STUPID PRO and the premium becomes the primary model, like back when pinball was normal.
One game, full featured. Ops can turn off features they don't want to service.
I never bought a Stern because of the multi-tiered crap.
For me, it started with Metallica. First one I ever played was a premium and that was the error. Soon I started looking to purchase, only to discover to get the complete game costs alot more. It felt like a classic bait and switch. I couldn't believe they would actually strip down an arcade game.
I like many new Stern's, but only play them on location. I have read all the quality complaints, and they do feel cheaper to me compared to 90s B/W. Fun to play, but not interested in buying for the home, not since the cost cutting started.
Then we get to these prices. Holy shit. I'm glad to have a few physical games in the basement, acquired prior to massive inflation.
I am considering adding a virtual pin to finalize the collection. These prices are too much for me.
If I’m stern, I’m changing absolutely nothing and seeing how ridiculous this hobby can get. I love when people try to “figure it out” for stern. There is nothing to fix - stern is literally printing money at this point and unless people stop buying at these prices, it will continue to get worse. I don’t blame them - just like I don’t blame them for selling overpriced toppers b/c idiots keep on buying them.
Quoted from delt31:If I’m stern, I’m changing absolutely nothing and seeing how ridiculous this hobby can get. I love when people try to “figure it out” for stern. There is nothing to fix - stern is literally printing money at this point and unless people stop buying at these prices, it will continue to get worse. I don’t blame them - just like I don’t blame them for selling overpriced toppers b/c idiots keep on buying them.
Well, I'd argue that when people spend an extra $3k on a "flipped" game that they missed out on through direct channels, that's theoretically $3k less they have to spend on Stern product. So looking forward past the initial sale, it actually can affect Stern. I make this same exact same argument about toppers. When they don't make enough, it's not Stern that profits.
------
My suggested fix for "flipper" buyers, would just be to require them to sign a contract before they buy an LE. The contract would stipulate that the buyer must provide verification of actually having opened and setup the game. Give them 60 days, or something like that, to send in a photo. If they don't they'll be billed an extra $2k dollars. Would immediately put a stop to NIB flippers.
You could take it a step further and require them to hold onto the game for at least 6 months. Might seem intense, but Batman SLE buyers proved that plenty of collectors will go to extremes to get their highly-sought-after LE games.
Regina, SK
Quoted from mamawaldee:Then DITCH THE STUPID PRO and the premium becomes the primary model, like back when pinball was normal.
"The pro just plays faster" crowd would be disappointed then.
Rob
Quoted from porkcarrot:But that doesn't benefit Stern. With the current system, they know going in that they are going to sell X number of LEs at their set price. That money is basically guaranteed to them. There is no benefit to changing it. If there weren't a stupid demand, partially in place because of flippers, there wouldn't be a guarantee of sales.
Stern has no reason to care if the machines are flipped and the people who want them have to pay more. If Stern cared about their customers, there wouldn't be an LE model in the first place. It exists only to take extra money from whales. With they system in place now, they know those sales will be made and they can count on that money. The people who didn't get one and refuse to pay a flipper will just buy a premium anyway. And there is a decent chance the flipper buys one too with their extra profits.
Dude, we’re all whales, buying $6-10K pins for amusement. Don’t get all the bitching over $1K give or take. If you can afford $9K, I won’t believe you can’t afford $10K.
Anyways, Premiums are the way to go, but I have room for one more pin, so definitely made it my first and probably last LE. Have to do it once.
Quoted from Speedracer773:Overall I'm just suggesting there may be a better way to let others, that aren't so well connected to the distributors, have an opportunity to buy an LE. I don't believe the chaos is all planned. (Although it sounds like some do) Are the owners manuals with multiple typos and wrong information planned? is it part of their plan to sow FOMO chaos in the market? Are the production delays always intentional? or are they mistakes they work around? I'm not really arguing these points just pointing to some spots were it seems things are in less than an ideal state.
I'm not trying to bash Stern. I like their pins. Plus my exposure to their customer service has been good and helpful. I think lot a lot of companies, they do the best they can. I'm just suggesting that there maybe a better way to sell LEs, Whatever that way may be. Or perhaps backglass and side art / extras (I think they look much nicer than translites), I can see someday finding that special pin and wanting all the goodies. extras art etc.
If nothing else this demand will certainly create more opportunities for other companies and more competition. Figuring out a good way keep customers and fans of your products loyal to your brand is a good way to keep business. Most of us can't just buy a new pin every few months. If company ABC makes a nicer pinball machine that plays great, for less money....well I might just go spend my cash over there - "besides I don't have much of a real chance to get an LE right?"
I think like a lot of things there is some room in the middle. A way for more customers to get more loaded pins, Stern to make more money from those pins, and the distributors still happy so everyone wins, more. I'm not suggesting anyone give up anything, or give away anything. Rather just think about a better way, that benefits everyone, a bit more evenly.
How about this as another idea? Stern produces the LE with a number and COA etc and a version unnumbered but still with the back glass art package powder coat etc. Mr or Ms Limited Exclusive collector still gets the exclusive and other folks could get the upgrades without buying from a flipper? Or any other numerous ideas / suggestions.
It’s still possible, even with no pre-existing relationship. Wasn’t sure my distributor would come through so emailed half the Nation and found 9+ LEs yesterday. Granted, only found 2 at MSRP, but they were out there for 45 min of work.
Quoted from porkcarrot:Stern knows today that they have a guaranteed sale of 1000 LEs at $10,000 for their next game before they even announce it. Why would they rock that boat?
how confident are you that there are 1000 buyers in a 'RUSH' to pony up LE money for sterns next purported title. im not getting the notion that they 'rock' 1000 peoples boat.
Quoted from greenhornet:how confident are you that there are 1000 buyers in a 'RUSH' to pony up LE money for sterns next purported title. im not getting the notion that they 'rock' 1000 peoples boat.
Pretty confident. Because with the LEs people are buying on speculation, not just theme.
Also, the key here is Stern ISN'T selling to you. They are selling to the distributors. so those games are going to get sold.
Quoted from jester523:I thought about Stern enforcing the MSRP (not sure if that is legal) and if you buy an LE you have to hold it for atleast a year to buy a new one / next one. Somehow prove you still own it.
Quoted from FlippyD:Any silly shit like enforcing terms of ownership is gonna get laughed out of court and never be a real tactic you can use.
Stern used it on Batman 66 (Premium) SLE. Ford used it on some GT350 models.
Almost all of the suggestions I've read would create a decline in sales. The main problem seems to be that 'regular' people do not have a chance to get an LE. The only potential solution I can see to this is for Stern (or whoever) to create a lottery for a pre-determined percentage of games that they sell directly. Obviously the distributors have their good customers that they have to take care of.
I've read suggestions that assume pinball companies are the government and they should be operating in a way that's beneficial to all. Stern and all pinball companies are in the business of making money and have all realized that you need to create "fear of missing out". American pinball company is the only one who haven't created a LE and their sales reflect this. Expect that to change with the next model.
Quoted from delt31:If I’m stern, I’m changing absolutely nothing and seeing how ridiculous this hobby can get. I love when people try to “figure it out” for stern. There is nothing to fix - stern is literally printing money at this point and unless people stop buying at these prices, it will continue to get worse. I don’t blame them - just like I don’t blame them for selling overpriced toppers b/c idiots keep on buying them.
They did change somethings. Went from 500 to 600 average on LE's to 1000. This is the only change I would keep doing. Make the number by popularity of game. Mando could have been same amount. BKSOR was 500 and that's all they needed. See the point I'm getting at.
The point of this was to discuss better ways of getting pins out to those that want an LE for their own. Some of the replies are very odd in the sense that all they do is defend the current process. We all know the current process. Unless your rich and connected it sorta sucks. ...."the ways things are, is the way things are" mentality.
What I've gathered so far in how to get an LE
Get rich
Get connected
Get a distributorship
...when all else fails get a premium - got it -thanks
I still contend there is a better way. One that still creates hype FOMO, one that still expands sales to people that are looking to keep the game rather than flip. I understand the point why would Stern care? They are getting their money. True enough I suppose.
So in summary - Get a Premium. I'd probably fully agree if I could buy a backglass
I still contend there is a better way. One that still creates hype FOMO. One that still expands sales to people that are looking to keep the game rather than flip. One that allows Stern to capitalize on their products but expands the LEs. Even so I understand the point "why would Stern care?" They are getting their money. True enough I suppose.
So in summary - Get a Premium. I'd probably fully agree if I could buy a backglass
Those clamoring for unlimited “limited editions”. see jjp. The LE moniker means nothing and gnr still flipped for several thousand over msrp for a year until the playfield and more importantly customer service shit down their leg.
This is supply and demand. Demand for an LE is gold for stern. And they are smart to keep nudging the price up but they have to keep at least the illusion that you are lucky to attain one.
This may be a hobby to a lot of us, but it’s business to stern.
Quoted from Speedracer773:What I've gathered so far in how to get an LE
Get rich
Get connected
Get a distributorship
As a relative noob to the home pinball market I was going to ask just that, as what you outlined was my basic impression.
Since I've been following it seems a more niche theme someone has a reasonable chance of picking up an LE at msrp day 1 if they happen to have tons of cash set aside and ready to order fast.
Like Elvira for instance I wanted an LE somewhat, but was low on funds when it came out so missed the window, soon after LEs became unobtainable and even premiums are sold at a hefty premium..
More widespread appeal themes like Godzilla (even with the bump to 1000 LEs) and Mandolorian look to have been gone basically instantly without having connections and/or tons of case.
Sure there will be special cases like Iron Maiden where I heard a good chunk of the LEs went to people connected with the band itself. I guess my point is how are more "casual" fans who don't avidly follow pinball news and rumors supposed to even know a game is coming with any kind of time to prepare?
Like if there is some crazy hardcore Godzilla fan/collector, but they aren't a pinhead by the time they even heard about the machine existing; let alone the different models, the LEs would be long gone with the Stern model of just a light teaser, then the game goes on sale very soon after and the LEs are mostly gone already.
In comparison I think the Spooky model worked relatively well for Halloween and Ultraman. While not perfect I felt there was more buildup, everyone had a fair shot to know exactly when they would go on sale, and I as a regular person without connections was able to go to their website upon sale and secure an early number CE. From what I saw that seemed similar for JJP titles.
Just my impressions, but the Stern method sorta feels like an "old boys club" where besides getting lucky on a hot title all LEs go to the rich and connected.
Quoted from Speedracer773:What I've gathered so far in how to get an LE
Get rich
I mean, yeah. Why would anyone who doesn't have a stupid amount of money to burn even consider an LE? It exists only so that that people with stupid money can show off how stupid they are with money.
As for defending the current process, I truly don't care what they do because I'm not about to spend my money on one. I've just been pointing out why it is like it is and why I think Stern would be crazy to change it.
Quoted from Speedracer773:The point of this was to discuss better ways of getting pins out to those that want an LE for their own.
agree if I could buy a backglass
As someone who can't buy a backglass your opinion on how Stern should be doing things is less valuable to them than their game buying customer's opinions.
One does not have to be rich to have many pinball machines and a good relationship with their distributor.
Quoted from Obed_Marsh:how are more "casual" fans who don't avidly follow pinball news and rumors supposed to even know a game is coming with any kind of time to prepare?
You don't. This isn't a mass produced item on the scale of a Furby or an iPhone where you can just go camp in line for a weekend and get one on day 1.
Quoted from Obed_Marsh:In comparison I think the Spooky model worked relatively well
Spooky & JJP don't have much in common with Stern. Their marketing and manufacturing aren't on the same scale and use appropriately different methodologies.
Quoted from porkcarrot:I mean, yeah. Why would anyone who doesn't have a stupid amount of money to burn even consider an LE? It exists only so that that people with stupid money can show off how stupid they are with money.
As for defending the current process, I truly don't care what they do because I'm not about to spend my money on one. I've just been pointing out why it is like it is and why I think Stern would be crazy to change it.
You're not wrong, I don't get the types who absolutely must have every LE ever released beyond having too much money, but for grail themes for people I think its the mentality of I'm already spending insane money, so I might as well pay a bit more and get the top tier version
Quoted from Obed_Marsh:You're not wrong, I don't get the types who absolutely must have every LE ever released beyond having too much money, but for grail themes for people I think its the mentality of I'm already spending insane money, so I might as well pay a bit more and get the top tier version
Well the grail theme concept makes little sense to me too.
Quoted from Obed_Marsh:You're not wrong, I don't get the types who absolutely must have every LE ever released beyond having too much money, but for grail themes for people I think its the mentality of I'm already spending insane money, so I might as well pay a bit more and get the top tier version
Agreed!
Quoted from Obed_Marsh:You're not wrong, I don't get the types who absolutely must have every LE ever released beyond having too much money, but for grail themes for people I think its the mentality of I'm already spending insane money, so I might as well pay a bit more and get the top tier version
The problem with this logic is the whole myth of the LE being the top tier version. It's just an over inflated price on a some cosmetic issues. The only reason this works on people is because it seems hard to get. People think everyone wants it and it so hard to get it must be special.
Quoted from Darscot:The problem with this logic is the whole myth of the LE being the top tier version. It's just an over inflated price on a some cosmetic issues. The only reason this works on people is because it seems hard to get. People think everyone wants it and it so hard to get it must be special.
My Zep LE was super easy to get. I just thought it looked cooler so I spent the extra $1500.
Why? Cause I have more money than I need. It's one of the reasons I'm in the pinball hobby.
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