(Topic ID: 327128)

FIXED!! Stern Hot Hand, no feature lights

By johnboy1313

1 year ago


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#1 1 year ago

Hello everyone. The feature lights started going out and coming back on last week. This week they went out and have stayed out since. I reflowed the header pins on the lamp board and the psu. I have 5 volts at test point 2. I have voltage at tp3 but I don’t remember how much voltage.

I’m not familiar enough with what I should see at each pin to diagnose this myself.

Can any of you take a look at page 5 of the attached schematic and point me in the right direction? Ive lost every feature lamp on the playfield and in the back box. It’s gotta be something common to every lamp.

Thanks!!

https://www.ipdb.org/files/1244/Stern_1979_Hot_Hand_Schematic.pdf

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from johnboy1313:

It’s gotta be something common to every lamp.

Most likely you have a burnt connector pin at the rectifier board, specifically connector J1 pin 7. Also check the 10 amp fast blow fuse at F1.
Measure the voltage at test point TP1 on the rectifier board, it should be around 6 volts DC.

It's very unlikely the problem is at the lamp driver board.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Most likely you have a burnt connector pin at the rectifier board, specifically connector J1 pin 7. Also check the 10 amp fast blow fuse at F1.
Measure the voltage at test point TP1 on the rectifier board, it should be around 6 volts DC.
It's very unlikely the problem is at the lamp driver board.

Thanks Quench. I’ll check that out and reprt back. I appreciate it.

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Most likely you have a burnt connector pin at the rectifier board, specifically connector J1 pin 7. Also check the 10 amp fast blow fuse at F1.
Measure the voltage at test point TP1 on the rectifier board, it should be around 6 volts DC.
It's very unlikely the problem is at the lamp driver board.

No blown fuses on the rectifier board. .5v at J1, pin 7, .5V at tp1 on the rectifier board. The schematic shows that I should see 7.8VAC at E10. I only see 4.5VAC.

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#5 1 year ago

Got your meter in AC?

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from johnboy1313:

No blown fuses on the rectifier board.

Did you test the fuse out of the board?

Quoted from johnboy1313:

The schematic shows that I should see 7.8VAC at E10. I only see 4.5VAC.

That 7.8VAC listed on the schematic is when measuring E10 with respect to E9. Those transformer wire points do not use ground as a reference.
i.e. meter set to AC voltage, one meter lead on E10, the other meter lead on E9. Infact, put one meter lead on E10 and measure the voltage with the other meter lead on both sides of the F1 fuse. The result should be the same for both sides and will tell you if the fuse is good in circuit without pulling the fuse out.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

Got your meter in AC?

Test point 1 is DC. E10 is AC.

The fuse is good in and out of circuit. 8.6VAC between E10 and E9

#8 1 year ago

That's why I asked.

So what about the connectors previous posters asked about.... Have they been replaced?

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from johnboy1313:

.5V at tp1 on the rectifier board

Sounds like your bridge rectifier BR1 on the rectifier board took a dump

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from slochar:

That's why I asked.
So what about the connectors previous posters asked about.... Have they been replaced?

It’s a nearly brand new board. The connectors and contacts were all replaced when I installed the board.

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#11 1 year ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

Sounds like your bridge rectifier BR1 on the rectifier board took a dump

Thanks!! I’ll check it out. I appreciate the help guys/gals.

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from johnboy1313:

Thanks!! I’ll check it out. I appreciate the help guys/gals.

Hmmm, it being a new rectifier board changes my opinion on that BR1 going bad. It's possible but less likely. If you read the voltage of TP1 with only rectifier board J2 plugged in, what do you get? That will be a reading not under load.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

Hmmm, it being a new rectifier board changes my opinion on that BR1 going bad. It's possible but less likely. If you read the voltage of TP1 with only rectifier board J2 plugged in, what do you get? That will be a reading not under load.

5.9VDC at tp1 and j1 pin 7 with j1 and j3 disconnected.

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from johnboy1313:

5.9VDC at tp1 and j1 pin 7 with j1 and j3 disconnected.

Well, then that means it's not the bridge rectifier. Something further up the chain is dragging your voltage down. Could be a broken light socket, could be something on the lamp board. Try this... plug back in either J1 or J3, and test the voltage again. Then try it with the opposite plug (so J2 and J1, then J2 and J3). J1 is your playfield, J3 is your backbox. This will help narrow down where the problem is.

Edit: I suppose the bridge could be failing under load but I think that's unlikely. Others can chime in
Could also try plugging J1 and J3 back in, but unplug J1, J2, J3 from the lamp board and test the voltage again. If voltage is where it's supposed to be, then try plugging in each plug on the lamp board one at a time, see if you can get the voltage to drop. This will narrow down which lamp(s) to check

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from Knxwledge:

Well, then that means it's not the bridge rectifier. Something further up the chain is dragging your voltage down. Could be a broken light socket, could be something on the lamp board. Try this... plug back in either J1 or J3, and test the voltage again. Then try it with the opposite plug (so J2 and J1, then J2 and J3). J1 is your playfield, J3 is your backbox. This will help narrow down where the problem is.
Edit: I suppose the bridge could be failing under load but I think that's unlikely. Others can chime in
Could also try plugging J1 and J3 back in, but unplug J1, J2, J3 from the lamp board and test the voltage again. If voltage is where it's supposed to be, then try plugging in each plug on the lamp board one at a time, see if you can get the voltage to drop. This will narrow down which lamp(s) to check

Thank you. That gives me something to look into this weekend. I appreciate the help.

#16 1 year ago

So with J1 connected on the rectifier board and j3 disconnected, I get about 6VDC on TP1. With the blue wire pulled from pin 6 on J3 and that connector plugged in, TP1 still reads about .5VDC. None of the lamp sockets or bulbs on that bus in the backbox appear to be out of sorts, compared to each other.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from johnboy1313:

So with J1 connected on the rectifier board and j3 disconnected, I get about 6VDC on TP1. With the blue wire pulled from pin 6 on J3 and that connector plugged in, TP1 still reads about .5VDC. None of the lamp sockets or bulbs on that bus in the backbox appear to be out of sorts, compared to each other.

I'd try reconnecting the rectifier board but completely disconnecting the lamp board. Then plug in J4 of the lamp board, which is power and data, recheck the TP1 voltage. Then with J4 still plugged in try reconnecting J1, J2, J3 one at a time, checking the TP1 voltage each time. J1 J3 are playfield, J2 is backbox.

Others can chime in with more efficient ways of doing this test, but if you do trace it to a set of controlled lamp sockets I think you might have to desolder all of them, then start reconnecting them one at a time to determine which socket is dragging your voltage down.

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from johnboy1313:

TP1 still reads about .5VDC.

This sounds more like an open circuit than a short circuit. A short will cause the F1 fuse to glow and blow.

Dismount the rectifier board and inspect the soldering on the E9 and E10 wires and also the soldering on the BR1 bridge legs. Make sure the F1 fuse is in tight, maybe replace it in case it's internally fractured/intermittent.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

This sounds more like an open circuit than a short circuit. A short will cause the F1 fuse to glow and blow.
Dismount the rectifier board and inspect the soldering on the E9 and E10 wires and also the soldering on the BR1 bridge legs. Make sure the F1 fuse is in tight, maybe replace it in case it's internally fractured/intermittent.

I did this last night before I saw this post. I was trying to get a voltage reading and as I messed around, the lights all suddenly started working. I reflowed most of the board. Now I have half of my feature lights on the playfield (No Aces, Kings, or Tens lit plus a few more) and only a handful in the backbox. The oddest part is that the lights aren’t lighting like they’re supposed to during gameplay. When only the diamonds flush is lit (or at least when all of the switches have been triggered to make a diamond flush), it now lights the 4x jacks light which should only be lit when the four jack cards are lit. I could probably troubleshoot this out the rest of the way if it were playing by the game rules. The odd behavior is over my head. Again, it was working fine a couple weeks ago.

Thanks again.

All connectors are fully seated where they’re supposed to be.

#20 1 year ago

You reseated your connectors, and now some things are partially lighting, but when they should not, leads me to ask you to verify your connectors are not off one pin or installed backwards. To keep that from happening, verify the key for each connector is in place.

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from Billc479:

You reseated your connectors, and now some things are partially lighting, but when they should not, leads me to ask you to verify your connectors are not off one pin or installed backwards. To keep that from happening, verify the key for each connector is in place.

That was the first thing I looked at and why I reported that all connectors are fully seated in their correct positions.

#22 1 year ago

With the machine in test mode to cycle all feature lamps, it seems like something is off in the address or data lines. The lights that are missing are the same pins on U1-U4 of the lamp board, meaning pin 4 on U1 is working, as is pin 4 on U2, U3, and U4. When probed with my logic probe, only the pins connected to the working lamps flash high. The pins connected to the dead lamps are also dead. I’m not sure where to go from here. I’ve metered the connectors. There doesn’t seem to be any bad connections on the lamp board and MPU in regards to the address and data lines.

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from johnboy1313:

With the machine in test mode to cycle all feature lamps, it seems like something is off in the address or data lines.

Use your logic probe to check for activity on the four address lines, four data lines and also the lamp strobe #1 signal going into the U1-U4 chips.
The four address lines and the lamp strobe #1 signal are the same across the four decoder chips so only need to check those signals at one chip. But the four lamp data signals individually go to one chip each.

As Billc479 was alluding it's likely going to be a connector issue with regards to these signals (J4 at the lamp driver board or the J1 at the MPU board).

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Use your logic probe to check for activity on the four address lines, four data lines and also the lamp strobe #1 signal going into the U1-U4 chips.
The four address lines and the lamp strobe #1 signal are the same across the four decoder chips so only need to check those signals at one chip. But the four lamp data signals individually go to one chip each.
As Billc479 was alluding it's likely going to be a connector issue with regards to these signals (J4 at the lamp driver board or the J1 at the MPU board).

I have continuity when probing the resistor on the MPU to the resistor on the lamp board for each pin on the connectors, for instance, I put the red probe on R76 connected to J4 pin 14 on the lamp board. I put the other probe on R70 connected to J1 pin 15 on the MPU. There was about 0.8 ohms of resistance on each pin I checked. They all have the keys.

All four address lines check the same on each pin on each chip with the logic probe. All four data lines all check exactly the same on each chip with the logic probe, but I’m not near the machine right now and I can’t remember the results other than they were all the same.

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from johnboy1313:

When only the diamonds flush is lit (or at least when all of the switches have been triggered to make a diamond flush)

Which Diamonds Flush light are you talking about? Do you mean the 10X light at the top pockets that lights when you make all diamonds?
If yes, it's output #9 of U4
The Jacks 4X is output #8 of U4
The difference between these is address line 0 being stuck low.

Give us more examples of wrong lights illuminating so we can try and see a pattern.

The address and data lines should all indicate high with low going pulses.

Quoted from johnboy1313:

Now I have half of my feature lights on the playfield (No Aces, Kings, or Tens lit plus a few more) and only a handful in the backbox.

Did you by chance mean Aces, *Queens*, and Tens?
If yes, this again points to address line 0 being stuck low.

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

Which Diamonds Flush light are you talking about? Do you mean the 10X light at the top pockets that lights when you make all diamonds?
If yes, it's output #9 of U4
The Jacks 4X is output #8 of U4
The difference between these is address line 0 being stuck low.
Give us more examples of wrong lights illuminating so we can try and see a pattern.
The address and data lines should all indicate high with low going pulses.

Did you by chance mean Aces, *Queens*, and Tens?
If yes, this again points to address line 0 being stuck low.

No, Aces, Kings, and tens are all dead. The Queens and Jacks are lit. Address line 0 is working on all four chips U1-U4. From memory, these pins are flashing high on all 4 chips when the lamp test is active, 4, 7, 8, 11, 14, 18, and 19 if I remember correctly. I’ll check again when I get back to the machine.

I mean the diamond flush on the playfield. When all diamond cards, A, K, Q, J & 10 are lit (or supposed to be lit). For some reason it is now lighting the Jack 4x light as if all four jacks (diamond, spade, heart, and club) are lit even when they aren’t lit. The pic below was taken in test mode when the machine should have been lighting all feature lights. You can see what’s lit and what isn’t.
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#27 1 year ago

And here’s a pic of the backbox. The four lamps that are circled are the only ones working.

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#28 1 year ago

The pattern I see is lamp address lines 0 and 1 are shorted together.

Most likely happened when you reflowed the pin headers on the lamp driver board. Closely inspect the soldering at pins 14 and 15 of J4 for an accidental solder bridge.

Quoted from johnboy1313:

I mean the diamond flush on the playfield. When all diamond cards, A, K, Q, J & 10 are lit (or supposed to be lit).

The only lamp that lights when you get all diamond cards is the 10X by the top pockets. The diamond lamp to the left of the centre suite of cards is the "card suite selection" lamp - i.e. it does not indicate when you make a diamond flush.

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

The only lamp that lights when you get all diamond cards is the 10X by the top pockets. The diamond lamp to the left of the centre suite of cards is the "card suite selection" lamp - i.e. it does not indicate when you make a diamond flush.

I know that. I’ve had this game for several years. It only recently started acting up. During gameplay, the jack 4x light is coming on instead of the 10x light. It’s not supposed to.

#30 1 year ago

Here is a quick video I made of the logic probe on all 24 pins of U1. The results are exactly the same on all four chips.

Thanks again!

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

The pattern I see is lamp address lines 0 and 1 are shorted together.

Most likely happened when you reflowed the pin headers on the lamp driver board. Closely inspect the soldering at pins 14 and 15 of J4 for an accidental solder bridge.

I think you missed the first half of post #28 above ^^^
Did you check if those pins I mentioned are shorted?

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

I think you missed the first half of post #28 above ^^^
Did you check if those pins I mentioned are shorted?

Sorry, I forgot that part. No, they aren’t shorted.

#33 1 year ago

There's a short between those two signals somewhere.

Below I've marked all your lamps working in lamp test mode. They are on outputs #0, #3, #4, #7, #8, #11 and #12 of the four 4514 decoders.
The truth table from the 4514 decoder datasheet shows that these outputs mentioned are selected when both input lines AD0 and AD1 are the same level. Your outputs that aren't working (not being selected) are those requiring inputs AD0 and AD1 to be different - because these signals are shorted, some wrong lamps are being selected.

For example, the upper 10X pocket lamp (diamond suite achieved - marked as mystery score on the schematic and playfield) is output #9 of U4 and requires address AD0 to be high (5 volts) and AD1 to be low (0 volts).
But U4 is seeing both these signals as low (0 volts) and is selecting output #8 which is the Jacks 4X lamp.

At any of the four 4514 chips, measure the resistance between pins:
2 and 3 =
3 and 21 =
2 and 22 =
21 and 22 =

HotHand_LampIssue.pngHotHand_LampIssue.png
HotHand_LampIssue_4514.pngHotHand_LampIssue_4514.png

#34 1 year ago

It is funny how things work. I found this thread last night, while working on a Hot Hand at a home. Theirs turned out to be all the alkaline damage to the lamp driver board. First Hot Hand I have ever seen too.

#35 1 year ago
Quoted from RandyW:

First Hot Hand I have ever seen too.

I've had a Hot Hand for years and enjoy it.

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from Quench:

I've had a Hot Hand for years and enjoy it.

Hot hand is a fun game, especially with multiple players.

Quench I’ll get those resistance readings this afternoon. Thanks again.

#37 1 year ago

“measure the resistance between pins:”
2 and 3 = 0.2 ohms
3 and 21 = 3.3 M ohms
2 and 22 = 2.7 M ohms
21 and 22 = 3.5 M ohms

U4 is socketed. Out of circuit the short between 2 and 3 isn’t present. I see 39.9 kohms between J4 pins 14 and 15 when the connector is unplugged and 5.9 kohms when the connector is plugged in.

#38 1 year ago

I have a LDA-100 Rev C here that came out of a quicksilver a few years ago. Is Rev C a direct replacement for the Rev B board that’s in there now?

#39 1 year ago

Yes all those lamp drivers are interchangeable.

#40 1 year ago

FIXED! After swapping the Rev C board in and seeing that it had issues of its own, I flipped the Rev B board over and had a closer look at my soldering. I found a solder bridge between pins 2-3 on U2. I cleaned it up and all is well again. Thanks for the help everyone.

#41 1 year ago

Congrats!

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