Stern Galaxy - Strange Intermittent Kicker Issue

Got this game from a guy in O-Town, who said he has just taken the game back from Florida Freeplay.

I played it before I bought it, and everything seemed to work, it did not display the Intermittent kicking behavior.

You can play several games with no problems. A couple of bulbs are out, even after replacing the bulbs with good known ones. An ohm meter shows no power to these sockets. I think it's the 30,000 bonus lite, and more problematic, since it may somehow replace to the kicker issue, neither of the "X"s in galaxy lite up. No power to sockets. But you CAN complete Galaxy. Sometimes though, maybe on the 3rd, maybe the 10th, game the kicker will stop working. In the middle of a game.

Related I guess, sometimes the kicker will get stuck "kicking" as if the switch were closed, because the kicker kicks over and over (not to be confused with locked on). Turning the game off and on doesn't fix it. Starting a game will. VERY odd behavior!

-B

After More Research.....

It seem like Switch 39, the Star Rollover for the second "A" in galaxy, was intermittently stuck on, due to mis-adjustment. Seems like it only fires when you actually roll the ball over the star, not when something next to it gets bumped. I'm not sure if that affected anything else, I haven't witnessed the continuous-kick from the galaxy kicker again. Maybe that was somehow related.

Unfortunately however, the problem with the switch for the Galaxy kicker gets deeper. When it goes into "No kick" mode, that is, the ball is on the Galaxy Kicker switch, but for some reason it isn't telling the solenoid to kick, if the ball IS making that switch, like it's supposed to kick, then, several other switches cause strange behavior. For instance:

- G rollover causes the TOP Pop bumper to fire
- A Rollover causes the Lower Right pop bumper to fire
- L Rollover causes the Lower Left pop bumper to fire
- A Star Rollover causes the right lower kicker to fire.

I'm not exactly sure what this all means, but it seems like something is quite wonky in the switch matrix! Is this the symptom of a bad, or a series of bad diodes?

-Brian

Watched some videos on Youtube talking about how to diagnose switch matrix issues. Seems like I've replaced all the diodes in all 4 corners that relate to this- Or maybe I haven't. Seems like Ball Kicker, 35 makes a rectangle with Switch 16, left sling shot. Earlier I missed that the saucer, causes the left slingshot to fire. Replaced those Diodes too.

While the ball is in the kicker lane, not being kicked, any of the switches on the same row, saving #33, the outhole, that seems to work okay. I tripped that, while the ball was still in the galaxy kick lane, and the ball ended, and counted up bonus like normal.

I'm giving up on this for the night. If anyone has any constructive advice, I'm all ears.

-Brian

Thanks Ace.. I guess I'm just ignorant/inexperienced in these issues. Can you tell me where I went wrong in my thoughts that it would be a Diode issue? In my past experience - albeit mostly with Williams games - But when you see things happening that aren't being fired, and they all seem to be on that same row - or Strobe line as I'm beginning to understand. The videos I watched described several scenarios where a broken diode would cause these types of issues. Is there anything other than just hard won experience that tells you it's connectors vs. Diodes? I'm not doubting you, I'm trying to figure out where my diagnosis went wrong so I can correct it for next time.

I suppose the connector could cause the intermittence I've described. It's just so frusterating.. I thought I'd had it licked, and then 8 games into testing, the kicker stops working. AGGG! Calgon Take me away!

I know for sure that connector issues are even WORSE for Bally/Stern games. On Williams games things seem fairly straight forward, and if you see a problem with the flippers, then it's likely related to the flippers. With Bally, it might not be the case. Like the strange issues causes on my Meteor before by connectors not making good connections.

On this Galaxy, I plugged, and re-plugged several times, but as it seems like the .10 connectors are even more fragile than the .156s.

Just when I'm going to order my complete set of .10 headers / pins / keys, etc.. Ed from Great Plains is on vacation.

Also, does anyone know if the crimper for the .156's work to crimp the .10 pins as well? It's sort of hard to tell from the websites.

Regarding those tools of yours, I looked at them, and I was thinking of order the whole batch of them.. It didn't look like it'd be that expensifve, and you'd have the entire kit! These tools would somehow have pointed to no problems with the diode?

-Brian

Thanks for your help Ace. I'll be trying all of your suggestions- Wiggling, etc. haha..

As for the test kit, yeah, if you got a bunch together as a kit, I would consider buying one.. Like i said, I added up the cost of all the components and it was less than $200 I think.. Some of the test pieces were VERY cheap! Anyway, let me know, I'd be in for buying a set of these things..

Thanks again. I'm going to do some wiggling!

-Brian

WELL-Well-welll!! (said in the Dana Garvey church lady voice)

When I got this Galaxy, Paul the guy i got it from drew my attention to A4J2 which he told me he replaced since I guess it was bad. To be fair, I've yet to get my crimping equipment and crimp the first one. However in my experience, the physical test the crimp must pass afterwards if you apply nominal force to the crimp joint, it holds. These came off in my hand without pulling. I'm surprised it worked as well as it did. Even if you're inexperienced in crimping, if you pull on the wire and it and it comes off in your hand- ITS A BAD CRIMP!!!

"100% no problems." Should be a flag for me. Because I've only seen ONE Game that gave me "no issues" it was a newer mousin around. If someone claims a game is perfect. It's gotta be a fib!

IMG_4684 (resized).JPG

I don't know if I've actually looked at that many of these plugs, and I know the guy wasn't a robot, but the female pins that are exposed through the little slits there, usually when they're from the factory they're all perfect in a row. These don't look so uniform. You can see the one on the right looks definitely different, some of them looked like they were sort of stuffed back in there.

Oh! I just noticed the pin second from the right is coming out of the plug! What is with this thing? It looks like the standard pin though, with a base part crimped on the wire, and the top part crimped on the insulation. I wonder if he didn't have the proper crimper?

So about doing this repinning...

When one does this re-pinning, and crimping these little ends, is it common to re-use some of them? It seems like with the Duty-cycle issue you referred to, it's going to be nothing but problems to have a couple new pins, and the rest old ones, just to get one or two of the oldest ones to make. Sort of like only replacing the fibrelink, and not the rest of the flipper kit and wondering why the flipper still sucks. It looks like he replaced A4J2's plug, as it's white unlike the red ones used from the factory. So the idea is to replace the WHOLE thing, Headers, Socket, Pins, ALL of it, so there is no "Weakest Link" anymore, correct? Wait, two of the boards in question are newer Altek boards. I guess I don't know HOW new, but not the originals - I assume these aren't going to have any cold solder joints, or problems with corrosion on the header pins? The blue stuff of which you spoke. But new boards don't replace the plugs or female pins.

All toward the idea of making the game 'bulletproof' -- at least for a few years so you won't have to keep coming back and fixing the same problme over and over. Do it once right and be done with it.

-Brian

Well, there you have it.

Thanks for your help Ace. I'll get these clips, plus, pins, etc.. Install them... and Let you know how it worked out!

Thanks again Ace.. And let me know about a set of the tools to debug- Well, is it going to be a different set of tools to diagnose Bally vs. Williams? They both have a switch matrix, but the plugs won't, right? Do you supply some sort of cross-over plug, or ways to clip into different systems?

Thanks Ace!!!

-Brian

ps. Have a happy T-Day - Don't overstuff!!

So I was looking At the options, #4 looks like it might be right up my alley!! I've been soldering since I was a little kid, however sometimes the things I solder still look like it! Ugh, if this is how they look when I'm 48, I can't IMAGINE the stuff I soldered when I was 8!!

Someone at work keeps threatening to give me his soldering class. He used to teach it to government employees. But most of my experience has been with several of those Vellman stamps Ive put together. Traffic light, xmas tree, dice, I never finished the message led.. but with this megar experience putting together electronics, is this something I would be able to do? I have the crimpers, (and this thing keeps replacing crimpers with crumpets!)

But maybe it'd be better to spring for the extra and make sure it's assembled correctly.

Thanks Ace! I might just know what to ask Santa for this year!!

Strange, I know I posted about this a minute ago- Anyway, I got the plugs, and pins, etc. All is good except for one of the plugs, they had to source them from 3 different suppliers.. Molex, TE, and someone else. Anyway, the TE ones, are Gold terminals. Its only for I think the 12 pin connector, but everything I've read says do NOT mix dissimilar metals! The plugs I need for this, and the earlier problems with the Meteor, I've got the stuff I need to do those.

Oh, GREAT document on soldering! Thanks! Got one on crimping? I don't want it to fall out like the originals did! I think I can handle it though, I've crimped some wires before at work and things worked out okay. Those were RS232 connectors, but same idea, crimp on the insulation, crimp on the wire, pull to test, insert into clip until it locks! "Easy-Peasy" as Brooks would say.

-Brian

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Replaced the fault plug and pins at A4J2. I verified the colors and positions with the manual. Unfortunately, this did not fix the problem. It's amazing the thing worked at all with those crimps hanging on by a thread like that. I watched a couple of good videos about it, one from TE that is WAY professional. It took a couple to get in the swing of things, but now that I know which wire sizes to use for crimping, stripping, etc. it all comes together well. Anyway, I'm very satisfied with my crimping tools, and materialsg That plus is, "Rock solid" as they say.

Unfortunately however that didn't fix the problem. It still does that strange thing where in the middle of a game, the Galaxy kicker will stop working. I've never seen it happen on the first ball, and you always know it's going to happen, becuase normally when the ball goes into the outhole the Galaxy lights don't flicker like the ball landed in the Galaxy trough. If you pick the ball up manually, and put it back into play, everything works fine. If you leave it in the Galaxy trough, and start a game, everything is fine, and it starts working again. However, if you turn the game off, and back on, it'll kick kick the ball out of the Galaxy trough, and when the ball lands in the outhole, the Galaxy kicker will kick repeatedly as if it's switch were being pressed. This is in GAME OVER mode mind you- I tried several other switches, and while the ball was in the the outhole, the Galaxy Kicker going to town, when I hit the left sling shot, it triggered the Saucer Kicker!! Which I believe is the OPPOSITE of what happens abnormally happens, in that you trigger the saucer, and the triggers the left Slingshot.

I WILL get to the bottom of this. It just might take a little while.

-Brian

Thanks man! Yes.. I thought it was a switch matrix issue too. After watching some videos, and the one thing triggering several other things to go wrong, or versa-visa. I have a matrix I printed out from some site, but I looked at it and it also jives with the switch matrix as layed out in the Manual, it's just, um, backwards, and inverted.. But using the "Rectangle" Method, I first drew the rectangle from 11 Blue Drop Target, to 15 Right Sling Shot, , and 35 Galaxy Kicker, to 39 Top Right Rollover Button, All 4 of those diodes were replaced, and in the direction that the came out from, verified by the other switches around them. That didn't fix it, Plux, looking at the "Rectangle", it seems I missed the larger Rectangle of 09, Black Trop Target, 16 Right Slight Shot, 33 Outhole, and 49 Saucer, since I discovered they were involved too. My notes say I replaced all 3 of those, and tested the outhole, which according to the -> setting on my Multi-meter shows 541 in one direction and 0 on the other, so I took that for good. Is that valid though? I wanted to ask- Are diodes something that will intermittently fail?

Firstly make sure all drop targets are reset back up and take all balls out of the machine.
Then go to the switch test in service mode:
a) Does it show '0' in the Ball display or is it showing a closed switch number in all Player displays?
b) If you press the Galaxy trough kickback switch, what number appears on the Player displays?
c) If you put the ball in the outhole, what number appears on the Player displays?
Looking back at the symptoms you described in your second post relating to a ball sitting dead in the Galaxy trough kickback and you then pressing the G-A-L-A switches causes pop bumpers/slingshots to activate, does this happen both when the blue drop target is up or down, or only when it's down?
If it only happens when it's down, it tells me the diode on the Galaxy kickback switch is shorted. Can you test this diode? You might as well test the diodes on the outhole switch and probably the drop target switches too.
BTW, which exact diodes have you already replaced and did you orient them the right way around? (diodes are directional)

Test mode shows 0 with no switches pressed. Galaxy Ball trough Jives with the Manual as 35. Outhole reads correctly as well -

It's hard to get the game into service mode while it's acting up, I think I did though, and it seems like the Galaxy Trough still reported itself as 35, even though the game didn't seem to be interpreting it correctly. Turning the game off, and back on does not seem to fix, nor does a slam-tilt that re-sets the system. I see your point about how the game treats balls in troughs, and saucers differently if a game is in game over mode, or if it's playing a game, however if it works the way you say, and the problem isn't really GONE so much as ignored when you start a new game, why is it that the kicker will return to normal operation for a while? What is it that makes the problem intermittent? Or is that what we have yet to uncover?

Did I mention these are alltek boards?

-Brian

The alltek boards, both the MPU, and the Solenoid driver. The Lamp Driver, as well as the sound are original. They were in there when I got the game and was told the guy had "bulletproofed" it. >

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I don't believe the drop targets have any bearing on whether or not the kicker kicks, but I'll verify that in a little bit.
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HOLY $hit You're right!! While the kicking behavior is happening, the Blue Target causes it to start/stop!! What does that mean?

Regarding the testing, you mean clip the leg, test the diode, and solder it back together? It's not possible to test them in place, without cutting the lead, is it?

-Brian

I looked at the Galaxy switch, I don't see any shorts. I tested that diode - my notes say I replaced it. (Btw, these diodes are 1N4001s 1 amp 50V?, that doesn't matter, does it?). The readings on the tester were similar to the last one I tested, 0 and 500 something. I'll go test the rest of the diodes In question. Since you say you can test them in place.

I went ahead and snapped a couple pics, one is of the Galaxy switch, The other is the back of the switch bank. Is that right that one if those drop targets doesn't share the same common like the other three targets?

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IMG_4702 (resized).JPG

It's a little hard to see in that picture of the drop targets, but I noticed that the left three drop targets, Blue, Yellow black, which are all on the same common wire (The strobe line?) Anyway, each of the drop targets is wired up the same, the top lug is the common one, current goes through the switch, and then through the diode, and out the other wire. well on the last switch, It looks like the common wasn't long enough so they hooked it to the other lug, and switched the direction of the diode. I'm trying to figure this out logically if it still works right- It seems like an odd change to make to save an inch and a half of wire. Does anyone have pics if it came from the factory like that? I doubt it- it doesn't make any sense from a manufacturing point, and really confuses the situation.

-Brian

I've thought this before several times during this last few days, but I think I fixed it. Before my attempts to fix were sort of stabs in the dark, I mean, that connector with the pins that were falling out, okay, it wouldn't have worked anyway, but this determining that the way that drop target was wired didn't look right, and when I looked closer I saw remnants of the original common wire that fed that lug, and how it was backwards. One thing I tell myself, "when it left the factory, it worked, and was put together a certain way. That is PROBABLY the best way to have it work now, if I can return it as close to the way it looked when it left the factory. That drop target hookup definitely looked out of place!

And I had noticed the before, but I saw that they reversed the direction of the diode, so I figured Oh, okay, they thought about this and made the change, but apparently they didn't think it all the way through. Because if you're going to change two of the connections, That common wire, and the Diode, You'd think you'd have to move that third wire- The "out" or "in" I'm not sure which is the right term for it, but that connection stayed the same and looked like the rest of them, so I guess that's it! I sure hope so.

You know that scene in Apollo 13, right after they get the air scubber thing plugged in, and everyone is looking around wondering if they're going to still suffocate, but Tom Hanks looks at them and says, "Breath normal Fellas.." That's how I feel every time I think I've fixed this little bug.

I think I'll go play 15 or 20 more games before I hit send on this post....... It still hasn't failed again. Whoopie! i can breathe!

Thank you gentlemen - sincerely.. If you guys hadn't kept telling me to keep looking, and especially Ace, that part where you listed the types of things to look for, bent switches, or things touching, or basally "out of place" which is when I thought about how it ought to look from the factory, and that the drop targets weren't that.

I owe you guys a round next time we're up at the pub.

-A very Thankful and Grateful
Brian

Regarding the red wire that is not what it seems. I posted- or started to post this on my phone, but by the time the picture uploaded the conversation had moved on and I had fixed the problem.

This other picture shows how the camera caught this in such a way, as to distort it into looking like an actual connection.

-Brian

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Ace- in your markup to that picture, 1) solder blob. Affirmative. I'll remove that.

regarding "bare wire". Is that. Problem? Seems like they do that all the time on target banks with a common like that. They usually use one piece of wire, looked like it's tinnned, or some silver cable of some sort that is weaved through the same lugs along the Bank. I've seen it on older machines I guess. This is one of the target banks in my EBD. I looked at my RBG, but it's got boards and IDC plugs with optos,so that'll be a whole DIFFERENT set of issues. Next time I do one of these I'll put some shrink wrap on it.

-B

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Can anyone tell me if the wireform that the ball goes through after the spinner- Is that supposed to be one-way? Mine isn't.. And- if not- what is this thing's purpose??

-Brian

The final issue with this game (will the issues ever stop coming??) is the two Xs. Both in the Trough, and on the left rollover never lite up, even though you can complete Galaxy so it is getting made, just not displayed.

I thought seeing as they were both the same letter, and they both are out with known good bulbs, but they're fed off completely different lines. Both on the same J3 connector, Pins 1 & 15 - And if you trace it back to the transistors, they get run from Q51, and Q57 - no relation at all apparently.

How do you go about debugging something like this? neither light will light under any circumstance - with lighting the X during a game, or with the light test in self test mode, or in attract mode. It's just incommunicato!

Thanks Gentlemen..

-Brian

Sockets- Like the ICs? I'm not sure. I haven't dug that deep. I'm more of a If it's not broke, don't take that part out, and bend the legs putting it back in. But I could, or reseat the chips if need be.. or at least that one.

But with the experience the other guys have given me, it's always connector first, then branch out. I'd like to test those pins at the board to see if they're transmitting correctly. Pin 1 is the 30K Bonus light, and that wasn't lighting up either. So I'm having problems with things on pin 1, 15, and Wigging the connector wire at pin 1, if you get it just right the 30K will light up when it's supposed to. I was NOT able to get Pins 1 & 15, the x's to light with plugging and unplugging, wigging, or prayer.

I'm still thinking that plug is suspect and is going to have to go. where there is one flakey pin, there are bound to be more. Like roaches!

-Brian

They're known good bulbs. I tested for power at the socket and it's not there.

I have a logic pen.. Seems like I could use that to tell if those pins were begin triggered or not.

I'm thinking more like cracked solder joints, or problems with the plug & Pins. I was just looking at the BOLT the Einstein before me used to mound the board. I'll pull and check for solder joints. I guess if I'm going to go that far, I'll replace the header too. I got all that stuff the other day from Marco. I hope it wasn't the 28 Pin set that had the Gold connectors instead of the Tin ones. I don't have any gold headers to mate it to.

-Brian

I replaced one of the headers, except that uhh.. it was the wrong 28 Pin header. Agg.. Also, is there a better method for removing the old header? I ended up having to pretty much have to chop it into little pieces and finally work the pins out one by one.

I started by sucking a bunch of solder, but for some reason even after it looked like all the solder as gone from all the holes, MOST of them still seemed to be holding some how or other.

Maybe I'll go find a video, or paper about such things- the video on crimping terminals was so helpful, I love doing the crimping part now, they come out looking so perfect!

Alas.. I'll do the other header tomorrow.

-Brian