Was very common on GB when it first came out, most guys drill holes, and put machine screws with nylon locking nuts or order a newer unit. unless its under warranty call your distro...

It's amazing that scoop outlasted the switch. I've replaced that switch already on a game 3 weeks on location.

Its a spot weld, if you can weld easy fix! If you can't screw it!

examples, not my pics but another pinsider.

GBbroke1 (resized).jpg

GBbroke2 (resized).jpg

GBbroke3 (resized).jpg

Higher prices, lower quality yet the sales keep rolling in. I don't understand Stern not wanting to take more pride in their products by increasing quality.

The parts they use are flimsy, cheaply made. So many things wrong with my GoT, Metallica, and Walking Dead, right out of the box. They still cater mainly to distributors and not the home player when they choose the quality of their building materials. It also adds fuel to trolls like Kaneda.

Because Stern. They need to stay in business (who can blame them for that right?) But they just keep lowering the bar... it's the LEs I don't get. Big $$ and you Get The same Crap parts.

The frustrating thing is the games are Quite good, but the build quality sucks so bad I can't wait to get them out of my house. The games They Were building in the early 2000s were the pinnacle

They've upped their game on art, animation, code and even marketing but really need to turn their attention to engineering and manufacturing. I've had more issues with BM66, IMDN and SW then all my older Sterns combined. My job is running engineering and manufacturing for a major corporation so I understand firsthand the pressure to constantly reduce costs but Stern is making too many comprimises at the expense of quality, reliability and long term customer loyalty. I just spent $290 to replace a node board on my SWLE due to their defective/cheap diode design. and my $8k BM66 is out of service for the same issue waiting on a cheap wire tie/spacer fix-it kit. The finance, commercial and design people running Stern seem to be losing sight that manufacturing capability and scale are their primary competitive advantages.

Stern caters to wallets. If they gave AS about operators they would be built to hold up.

You’re 100% correct.

It really is a shame.

Still have my 2004 LOTR and it's been flawless after many thousands of games (only replaced the Gimli switch after the first month of ownership). Considering the demise of pinball back in the late 90's, you'd think Stern would have learned cost of ownership/maintenance is critical to their longevity. Sure, public pinball is back in many cities, however nothing lasts forever. Lowering the cost of ownership is goodness for everyone. The Spike games are just so cheaply built...cheap node boards that fail often, cheap power supplies, cheap/noisy fans. I respect that Stern is in the biz to make money, but given they are the only volume producer, I believe it's possible to build higher quality games and still make a healthy profit.

I've been a loyal customer since 2004, but I have to admit, I'm close to throwing in the towel.

I’m wondering if there’s just something we are missing as far as their business plan. They are cranking out TONS of games, and it seems to me maybe even more per year recently (that may be me just paying more attention). Maybe they’re betting on volume and NIB buyers trading the games out after a short window, then on to the next one. That would seem kinda risky to me - but who knows, maybe the numbers add up.

Smart home use buyers buy used machines that are a year or two old...let the first guy take the depreciation hit and work all the bugs out.

So true. It amazes me that some still worship "NIB". I'm guilty of buying NIB, but it's just out of impatience. As you say, smart/patient buyers purchasing from known collectors is the best deal in town. You save $$, get a dialed in machine with finished software.

I'm convinced it's because they feel little pain. Between the hobbyists that work to fix build issues and distributors, Stern is buffered from the day-to-day pain. Many of us invested significant time "dialing in" IMDN. Since the game is solid otherwise, it is a worthy investment. Nevertheless, to my knowledge, Stern didn't issue one f-ing bulletin on the many issues with the Premium/LE. Instead, they let everyone sweat custom hacks for issues as basic as getting the shooter lane to work!

Until pain is felt, they will continue to cut corners. Unfortunately, a major recession is likely to occur within the next 1-5 years and operators might get fed up with their investment. When I think of the problems I've dealt with over the past couple years (with NIB games), it amazes me that these games are surviving in a high-play public setting.

There's a sucker born every minute and as long as you guys keep buying their products they're going to keep selling junk when you going to figure it out

Wow, a broken scoop, never seen that before.
Oh, wait! Maybe on just about every game w a scoop.
Actually the metal they use is thicker gauge than the old B/W stuff.
Operating commercially, I would suggest your friend find a welder.
Fwiw, my deadpool scoop is fine, thousands of plays, and when it breaks, I'll get it welded.

I am going to go against the grain here a little bit.

We go through many pins here and while some of them may have had some extra attention needed or tuning (most games do from the factory..) ...these things are built for the long haul.

We just picked up a game off route that had over 1 million flips on the right flipper! The flippers were rebuilt twice as I was told once a year ago and once before we picked it up..
That's pretty incredible if you ask me.

I've got a deadpool with tons of plays. Had to replace the scoop switch but the welds are fine. This is the type of stuff operators have been dealing with since the dawn of time. Nothing lasts forever. I'm not sure of the issue.

Always have to laugh at the Stern die hard fanboys that try to deny Stern has reduced parts and build quality. There is no question that modern Stern games are not built to the same standard as older BW games or even older Stern games and current JJP games.

The real question is whether this is a real issue. Every product produced today is “cheaper and less solid” than products produced 30 years ago. But technology and engineering has often meant these products do the same job or better for a cheaper price using less materials. And if a part fails it’s cheaper and more efficient to replace it rather than repair it.

It’s nice to have a more solid product that feels like “quality” but is it really important or just inefficient and wasteful?

Looking at review videos on the Iron Maiden machine; I was alarmed by a side comment in a TNT review. They were discussing a handle behind the back field and off-camera I hear, "that's for strapping it to your truck when you haul it to the curb."

Whooooa, <<<<rewind. Yep, that's what he said. I wish to own one, but wow. Those guys would know better than I.

In all fairness it is not uncommon to have broken welds on any game. I know it's different comparing a new game with a 20-30 year old pin but just saying. Stuff breaks.

I always have to laugh at people who make these sweeping generalizations and have no understanding or knowledge of Pinball history, and have not for one second considered what it would have been like if pinside had previously existed and every single defect or break had been photographed and shared instantly with tens of thousands of anal hobbyists.

I’m not gonna rehash every single thing but you should at least attempt to learn yourself and employ the faintest attempt at perspective. I’m sure 90s pinside would have been thrilled about Williams GI connectors, and defective flipper opto interrupts, peeling cabinet decals and the TZ clock. I’m sure 80s pinside would have had lots of nice to things to say about every gottlieb premier digital system from 1978-1990. 70s pinside would have really
Liked those gottlieb latch trip relays, garbage bally light sockets, fuse holders and connectors, and the janky Williams match units and terrible drop target mechs that to this day need constant attention.

There is zero evidence - zilch - that pinball machines being built today are of worse quality or less reliable out of the box than the sainted glory games built in the 90s. It’s all confirmation bias by people who want to complain and are nostalgic for something they didn’t experience and didn’t exist: the impeccable glory days of unimpeachable pinball quality.

They are pinball machines. Shit breaks. Always been that way.

Stop your uneducated whining. It’s unseemly and dull.

Wow, for the biggest troll on Pjnside, you’re easy to troll.

And it’s great that we’re lauging at each other. Pinball is fun after all.

Do I have to remind you this thread was started about a Deadpool Pro that is probably less than 6 months old. Do you honestly think these modern Stern games will be playing as well as 90’s BW games in 30 years?

And besides, my argument was “does it even matter”? Most games are sold to home users and will last 50 years under those conditions anyway.

Nothing specific but pinball history is there to learn from isn't it? If spot welds were inadequate in the '90s, '80s...that should be a lesson learned. Same thing with leaving out inside corner brackets of pin cabs and they split. Why repeat the same long standing mistakes is the point some are making here. That's not a dismissible point. Good engineering learns from past mistakes and anticipates mistakes to avoid going forward.

Disregarding the unprovable, hypothetical inanities of the question you pose about 30 years from now...are you really congratulating yourself for provoking a response on a forum where the entire point is to respond to other people’s posts?

Well played. You are truly a strategic genius and I fell right into your trap. You have
Trolled me.

And furthermore, you did it easily!!!

Damn you.

Funnily enough, when i wrote my original post I suspected someone like you would react the way you did (hence the Stern fan boy reference), so it was fitting that you did. But I wasn’t deliberately trolling you - more just a fortunate side effect.

But seriously, would be great to hear from professional restorers who work on older games.

I’ve completely stripped and “restored” 4 90’s BW games, including tumbling every single part, dismantling and cleaning all motors and mechs, cleaning up cabinets etc. The games came back like new. And every non original replacement part I had to buy was noticeably inferior to the original part I was replacing.

The only reference I have to compare what a Stern game would be like after 20 years was a DE Starship Troopers, which was essentially the same as a Stern Whitestar game. I was planning to restore it but it was a mess. I felt that even that had more “solid build quality” than current Stern games.

Having said all that, modern Stern games are so much more fun than most of the older BW games, and most of the current games being produced, so does it really matter what they’ll be like in 30 years? They’re are just better all round games IMO.

And don’t make me bring out a carguement Levi.....but my current car is so lightweight and “plasticy”, it dents almost just by looking at it. But the tech, drive comfort, efficiency, safety and even aesthetics mean it’s impsossible to compare to a car 30 years older. The 30 year old car feels heavier and more solid, but when I had a choice I went with the new car. It wasn’t even a contest.

Yeah but here’s the thing buddy.

I was 3 steps ahead of you.

You see, I knew that YOU would respond the way you did!

Boom. BOOOOOM!

Now I admit, I do admire your skills, and I think you have a future. But for now, you are still but a student, many steps behind the master.

And yes, I do think plenty of these sterns will be around in 30 years. Probably
More so than the 90s classics, as you said, so many more are sold now into home use.

And people will probably be complaining about whichever new pins are being made and waxing nostalgic about the glory days of 2019. I guess we will have
To check in then but I’m not really planning on being around that long.

I’ve run into broken welds on new games and old. Nothing to see here. Shut the fuck up and go play pinball.

How about a Stern IJ with 100k plays on it. Yeah, definitely junk. At 50 cents a play, this thing earned over 10 times its initial cost while on location. Total junk... Right?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/my-stern-indiana-jones-just-turned-100000-plays-and-look-at-it

my gb one broke on the spot welds, simply drilled and bolted

Nice 'tude. I guess you're the omniscient authority on quality! Sure, "shit breaks", but that doesn't mean anything. Like anything, quality is relative, and Spike components aren't as reliable as Whitestar/SAM from my limited experience as a home collector.

I can't speak for the 90's NIB B/W. I can only comment on Stern NIB since 2004, when my NIB journey began (with LOTR/TSPP). I've been buying NIB Sterns for 15 years and as the years have rolled on, I've had MANY more problems with quality...especially with Spike.

My brand new Munsters Pro stopped working after 50 plays. Will hopefully receive a new CPU board Monday. KISS Premium node board crapped out after 300 plays. Never had any of these board problems with the Whitestar & SAM platforms. My NIB LOTR must have over 10k plays with 0 board issues.

So from my limited perspective, the Spike platform has been a big disappointment in terms of reliability.
IMG_1324 (resized).jpeg

Buy a cheap flux core wire feed welder(MIG) and practice. You will run into parts where putting holes in them isnt feasable or makes the mech even weaker. Its the best and fastest way to fix these small parts

Do you install any powered mods on your games?

Pinstadium lights (which I have on IMDN Premium, Beatles, SWLE, & TRON LE). LED strips use very little power...no?

It's also a Pro, which should have some extra headroom (since it excludes all the mechs on the lower PF).

Does this work for wireforms? I have one broken weld on a return form that is obscured from player view, so it's not worth sending out to be spot welded, but I wouldn't mind trying out a MIG weld. Right now I've got it tied off with a low profile hard wire wrap - which is working perfectly, but I'd rather have it done right

I've been collecting/repairing for 30 + years if you think the quality of current Stern games is on par with 90's WMS or early 2000's Sterns you are either blind ignorant or on their payroll.

That's the debate. Leds do draw low voltage but there is more to it than that from what I read. Game was not designed with powered mods in mind so could be pushing something over the line or maybe the leds spike power at times like on startup. If it was me, I would power any mods with external power source just to be safe. Knowing Stern, doubt they are overbuilding these pins. I'm hardly the expert but do recall blowing out a gi string on my Getaway long ago when I added one small power strip. I still had incandescent bulbs in the string and it was already at the limit from the factory.

But his Munsters Pro and Kiss don’t have Pinstadiums and both of those had issues.

Personally I think the SAM era games have the best overall quality. Definitely better than today’s games. I’ve been buying pins since 2006, and back then the long term collectors all hated Sterns and were constantly hating on the quality. From the dotty cabinet & plastics printing, to the toys, to the metal & plastic quality. Sterns comparing unfavorably to B/W games isn’t new...what’s fascinating is that it’s gotten worse, yet their sales & fan support have grown.

I put my foot down after the GB debacle & B’66 cash grab/untested prototype insanity of 2016. It’s crazy I even put a deposit on GB after they released STLE with uncoded asteroid flashers. When I talked to someone at Stern about when this extra feature I paid for is going to work, he basically said “Hahaha we got your money and only a small percentage know those lights aren’t coded...who cares”. Mmm hmmm. I’ll likely never buy a new Stern ever again....or at least wait a few years post launch to judge code and quality.

It's not a debate. Stern supplies a plug in the back box. If the plug is being used for something as modest as an LED strip and doesn't work (as you suggest), then the plug should be omitted from the back box.

I sincerely doubt the Pinstadium's have anything to do with this. Before the board took a turn for the worse, I unplugged the strip and the behavior was identical.

For me it’s like this.

Look, I know some stern stuff sucks. I know those speaker wire optos on games like Spider-Man always cause trouble. I know they used crappy cabinet bolt plates. There’s always stuff that could be done. There’s always corners cut so a game can meet the Bill of Materials. There’s always been problems on the production line, and designers have always butt heads with the bean counters. Read steve Ritchie’s interview from 1999 - this has always been the case in pinball and it always will be.

What drives me nuts are these blanket generalizations that “quality is worse than ever” and that these games are garbage and that is a crime and they think we are all suckers etc etc etc.

Take a brand new t2 and a brand new Munsters and put em on location.

After 5 years you have gone through 3 sets of flipper buttons on your Munsters. Maybe a node board cooked. Maybe something else happened. Who the hell knows it’s a pinball machine. With a little work it’ll keep working and making money.

After 5 years your t2 has no GI working, because three connectors on it are completely crispy and black. Your game is unplayable because the BRs are dead and it’s resetting. Your cannon won’t fire because there’s a broken wire in the loom. Not a big deal - with some work it’s still on location and making money.

All I’m asking for is some goddamn perspective here people!! It’s so easy to do and so many of you get carried away with the drama queen act and selective memory and don’t even want to try to be reasonable about it.

Nobody has ever made a perfect, maintenance free pinball machine, and nobody ever will. Pointing that out doesn’t make you “a fanboy” or “shill.”

You guys gotta lighten up. Please. I’ll put you all on my holiday card list if you just give it a shot.

Yeah, not debating that. Obviously there is more to it but just an idea I heard.

My issue with Stern is more so with how I'm seeing and hearing them manage quality issues. I've had a few minor issues. What's frustrated me is I had to chase people down within Stern to get a response. Send an email. Wait 1-2 weeks. Send another email. Wait another week or two. Ask my retailer who has a stronger relationship to inquire. What I would find after the fact is that they are looking into the issue or doing another run of the part for impacted customers. No customer should have to follow up on their service inquiry. No customer should be left in the dark. Acknowledging receipt of your inquiry (other than automated), advising it's being looked into, and providing an ETA should be expected. Very simple customer service. Conversely, I've had two small issues with parts on my JJP. They acknowledged receipt of my issue within hours and helped to fully resolve my issues amicably and expediently. No matter who I purchase from I fully expect imperfections. New or used. But if a manufacturer wants me to continue to buy from them they need to treat me as a repeat customer and manage my service issues with priority and value me as their customer.

Makes sense! No doubt the feedback loop can be spotty/random. For minor issues, going through your distributor may or may not make sense.

CGC (the remake company) has a really great online ticket application. I used it after my buggy AFMrLE was delivered. The bugs were a bummer, but the service process was really great. CGC techs would annotate the issue online and you could easily follow feedback/suggestions/etc. Stern should adopt it (of something like it). When Stern ships a part, they don't get tracking info. In the absence of tracking info, the online system would help understand if a part has shipped (even if you can't track it along the way). Business 101...it would save EVERYONE time.

As an occasional Stern owner, the thing I am most concerned with it the availability of parts. There are tons of B/W parts on 10 different sites, with Major inventories - all because there are TONS of games out there still running, all using roughly the same parts. Stern has much lower production runs, and it would seem to me (I have no info on this one way or the other) that there would be less parts available as a result.

Add to that the dramatic changes in design from Whitestar to SAM to Spike and Spike 2, and the quantities are even lower for
Those specific boards. B/W had different sets of boards too, but fewer major changes between runs, and again the higher inventory.

This isn’t really Stern’s fault - they are running what the market demands, and their changes have reasonable business sense behind them, but as an owner, this is what always comes to mind first.

I've pretty much given up the idea of buying another Stern NIB. Just can't justify the money for the quality. At a show last weekend, my family played the Beatles. All of them (wife and 2 kids) were "meh." They enjoy our EM at home more. My wife nudged the machine a little and looked at me and said the cabinet felt like an Ikea put it together yourself kit. She said, "It's no Jersey Jack." Sorry for the Stern bashing, but the modern era stuff just feels cheap.