Neil wanted pinball to absolutely die.

You can try to rewrite history a million different ways, but if you talk to anyone who worked for WMS in 1998......

Did he ever give a reason?

From talking with a few guys that still exist from that world, I think it was a lot of different factors, the biggest being the company was making too much money in the gaming world. In those days money was no object for any of us, and everything was in excess. The slot market was growing by leaps and bounds....it was exciting, and people were lining up at the door to buy games. Pinball was caught in a technologically evolving market, and it just lost it's place. Video games were taking over, and everyone expected pinball to die in it's current form. As Vid said, pinball has been made the same way for 100 years, and very few things can survive that long without evolving. People lost interest, and sales declined. The funny part is watching the parallel between pinball and slot machines. Pinball kept its mechanical form and managed to survive, and now is making a slow comeback. Time will tell if that comeback is sustained. Slots on the other hand had to evolve into electronic games. It took a long time for people to give up the mechanical reels, but they finally did, and now all they want are video games and bonus rounds with cartoon flying pigs. Always amazes me ...........

I do every day of the week, and there are a LOT of differing opinions. I'm sure the truth lies out there in the middle somewhere.

I still only play slots with mechanical reels. If there's not something physical spinning, I don't like it.

Only two possibilities: either a family member was crushed by a falling pinball cabinet, or he was just sick of the "cool kids" in the pinball department with their fashionable clothes, cutting-edge haircuts and rock 'n' roll lifestyle lording it over the "squares" in the other divisions at Williams, and finally worked his way to the top so he could exact revenge for all the years of stinging taunts in the cafeteria and wedgies in the halls.

HA...you and a lot of other die-hards! lol I can't play, and haven't been able to for many years, and as a court qualified expert on slots I can give you all of the math and what your chances are, and why the reels mean nothing since the outcome is determined before the reels even start to spin, etc.....but with all of that said, I like mechanical things as well, and they would be my preference too! lol

That's it! The secret is finally out! lol

One in particular is coming to mind. What comes around goes around I guess.

The cool kids like JPop?

It was important to him that every single pinball employee be fired (and not just continue doing their jobs by absorbing them elsewhere into WMS or having them continue to work on pinball under a new owner).

The ultimate bitch slap.

He might be the guy to ask why Neil wanted pinball dead, from an insider's point of view.

In my game room I have several of the mechanical slot machines from Bally, early to mid 1980's. Inside, they're strikingly similar to present day pinball machines, and the parts and assembly were done on identical production lines. Difference is, back then when Bally was going gangbusters, they'd build hundreds of these machines a week, while pins were produced in much smaller numbers. There are even artifacts of these machines tucked away at the Stern facility.

You can guess which business model would please the stockholders back then.
slotroom1_(resized).jpg

The one that will increase their dividends by 10x over 10 years for 1000 Alex?

Neil only held on a few years after closing the pinball division, as he "decided" to resign 4 years latter.

His reign of error as chairman lasted 7 years, driving the stock price down to a tasty $3 in 2003.

CV and gay themes?
Never knew that one.

Cv not good? Don't agree!

Plunge them balls already!

That sounded....
Well shit.

What's so shocking? The game is bright green and purple and it's about the "Cirqus" .. it's not "gay themes" it's people in the 90s looking at the game and saying "that's gay, I don't want that in my bar" the way people did in the 90s.

Nothing shocking but interesting to me.

BTW- plenty of lucrative loud green and purple machines being released these days wouldn't you say?!

Decades won't change the appearance of that fruity looking machine.

Perhaps. But not as many people will openly say "that's gay" these days due to changes in social acceptance. Some will, sure. But not as many - so I felt like I had to put a timeframe on it. :shrug:

Lets just call it "genderly challenged" then. Does that fit today's politically correct mindset?

It did not even have to be the gay theme that worried everyone.

People were worried that the broad was in possession of a man's mask. Obviously, masquerading as a man was a central part of her sexual identity.

cvbackglass_(resized).png

Backglass_(resized).jpg

That's true about one particular offer.. but you've closing your eyes to rest of the reality like they didn't even try to shop it around, they didn't even give their reboot a valid shot, they broke it up, and the commentary from the other side who did pursue williams and were basically weren't give any legit opportunity.

Its even simpler than that...

One curve was pointing down... and had lots of overhead
One curve was pointing UP with a bright future and much less overhead...

Pinball was an anchor, gaming was an opportunity.

Sounds to me like it was easy to turn Williams into a much more profitable company while making life difficult for some employees the boss didn't quite care for all at the same time. Killing two birds with one stone so to speak.

Geez! I was wondering why I had to wait for my MET Pro? Now I know. After reading this topic I learned that the reason is poor manufacturing, bad quality control, Stern's total disregard of guys trying to hide major purchases from their wives, Mexicans & microwaves, Chicago rush hour traffic, Neil Nicastro, and homosexuals. Got it. Thanks. Now I can rest easy and wait patiently. But, seriously. Biggest supplier of pinball? Us. Biggest purveyor of pinball? Us. True spirit of pinball? It resides in us. Not a company. Not a factory. Not a basement. Or a bowling alley. No holdup here. Crack a smile, give the nod, slap a button, and your line is up and running. Love it.

No, do not rewrite history.

By 2002, the Midway Games stock price had fallen 80%.

By 2003 the stock was at $3 from $18 a few years before.

I think they had a problem with software at that time that I believe allowed cheating on some of their games so it took a hit, but got resolved and it's been uphill ever since.

You forgot to mention the four day weekend.

Like when they declared bankruptcy in 2009?

I won't argue with the voice of reason there. They did survive though, and thrive for the most part.

Oh that may very well be true. I wasn't defending anyone, I was merely saying you can't draw a conclusion and start calling someone an a-hole unless you have some skin in the conversation outside of what you hear years down the line. There is always more to the story, and more than one side. Good or bad, the only ones that know are those that lived it.

Don't worry, there is not a person alive on the entire planet that would not consider Neil an a-hole.

I don't doubt your word, I did meet him a couple of times along the way many years ago. My first trip to WMS (Williams) was in 1996, and even though I formed my own opinions early on, I didn't know him well enough to make a public statement regarding his character, good or bad.

The pinball division had a profit of about $1M for 1998, so $20M for it was a very good offer.

Well my GB Pro is not coming in until July....so I'll have to settle to play TWD Pro and ST Pro First world problems.

Reposting from another thread... For those of you who were not in the hobby back in 2005-2011.. and wonder what people are talking about with Gary Stern's approach to things..

Turn back the clock to 2008, when after Stern has been struggling and the economy is really headed south he basically lays off everyone in design sans a handful of people. Here you have Keith Johnson, a player turned game coder and designer hang out some dirty laundry about what happened inside Stern... and then you get 'The King', Steve Ritchie himself chiming in on what was wrong.

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/rec.games.pinball/pt79ouRvHpw/IFsx_cjge1UJ

It should be very eye opening for those who only know the 2011 and later years of being in the hobby.

Probably more shocking for people is realizing just how dead people thought the industry had gotten and no one saw any light at the end of the tunnel.

Jack must have read Lloyd's post about suggesting Stern make WOZ. Some great insight in the thread from Keith and Steve.

So for those who won't come out and say what Stern is up to, here's my totally uneducated guesses.

Taking full control cabinet and playfield production? This seem more likely to me. They've already gone to a metal backbox and eliminated the need to build a cabinet for that portion of the game. I'm not saying we'll see all metal cabinets, just that Stern is going to take the remaining portion of the work in-house.

Robots? Not sure about this one, seems unlikely. Big expense and might not be worth it for the production volumes we're talking about.

Hey Charlie, nice thread you started. Who knew after our conversation you would have 800 posts.. ha.. glad you got the GOT, if you are reading this then you no doubt have read all the guessing, good humor and whining..

What we do know is Stern is still manufacturing and shipping games. Of which I no doubt will play and buy...

Some choice quotes from that link!

"Changing the target market (home buyers, rich dumb guys, etc.) doesn't seem a viable long term strategy."

"Pinball is done. It has been done, and Stern was just keeping it on life support."

"The Nicastros, Mike Stroll, Ken Fedesna, etc. ALWAYS cared about pinball." (From Steve! Hence my previous comment.)

"There just aren't enough new players to care about pinball, nor are there enough new pinball buyers that can afford an NIB pinball."

"Gary will never build anything but licensed games as long as Stern is functioning."

Awesome reading. Does make you wonder how Steve and Gary are working together again. Must have had some heavy hatchets to bury.

Videogames killed pinball.Check and see how many,of what we all consider A titles,come from the 80s.not much,personal preference aside.Pinball was never the same.Never.Gottlieb,gone.Williams sells to Bally.

Bally has shareholders and forecasters.Gambling was about to become legal in several states.Forecasters tell share holders ,cheaper to make,doesn't brake,we can sell 10000s to the new casinos.Pinball has lost its appeal,video is where its at.Its too expensive and costly maintain.Look at the numbers MK is doing. Now look at the pinball sales.Video wins.Gambling wins.

Tilt:The Battle to save pinball is great doc about the end days,sad but true.

Money talks.Pinball walks.....

Without some type of innovation that really captures the public imagination,pinball is just on life support.
some type of gambling pinball machine might actually not be a bad thing.

If you can't beat em,join em

Yeah I remember it well.At PAPA I had a conversation with someone who worked for Stern.Said they were 2 weeks from packing it in before the dudes in black suits came in and streamlined and saved Stern.

Electronic pinball is all the rage in slot machines for bonus rounds played over the slot. Many machines now have this pinball feature.

Bally and Williams had a ton of hits in the 80's. You could build a huge collection of A titles without a single DMD.

This thread is just a buncha nattering nabobs of negativity.

Yeah it was pretty clear at that time that SR was DONE with Gary... So when they announced his direct hiring in 2011 it was quite a change in direction. Kind of what I am trying to get people to see... Stern did a hard yank on the steering wheel. Doing what was needed to bring SR back meant some serious concessions

Not all kills are instant...