(Topic ID: 171152)

Stern coffee table book Kickstarter?!?

By MinusWorlds

7 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 2,971 posts
  • 233 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 89 days ago by wizard1
  • Topic is favorited by 52 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    View topic image gallery

    IMG_6548 (resized).jpeg
    IMG_6547 (resized).jpeg
    IMG_8317 (resized).jpeg
    9D1D118F-4B17-4E26-A3E4-F3031D7BCF8F (resized).jpeg
    pins (resized).png
    IMG_20210329_213847 (resized).jpg
    553B7374-1E3F-467F-8388-1FCD953EE318 (resized).jpeg
    2A285160-CF0C-4F98-AC03-E1E82BBD1EDE (resized).jpeg
    9C5A04D6-A4A8-4E45-BD6C-82F5383C4A04 (resized).jpeg
    1D2E567F-B7D7-48FF-A43A-AADE4E7CDF5D (resized).jpeg
    9639A97F-CA02-46CF-9DDD-A8277C6A35F1 (resized).jpeg
    FE4D13CB-BEF6-49CB-9D58-09A871BD63B0 (resized).jpeg
    IMG_20210320_150907 (resized).jpg
    IMG_20210320_150900 (resized).jpg
    IMG_20210320_150850 (resized).jpg
    IMG_20210320_150829 (resized).jpg

    Topic index (key posts)

    29 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

    Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

    Post #2 Link to Kickstarter project. Posted by ForceFlow (7 years ago)

    Post #74 Feedback on Stern editorial control. Posted by JoeDP (7 years ago)

    Post #109 Talk about editorial choices. Posted by JoeDP (7 years ago)

    Post #120 Confirmation that Batman 66 will be in the book. Posted by JoeDP (7 years ago)

    Post #123 Poster(s) shipping arrangements clarified. Posted by JoeDP (7 years ago)

    Post #130 Project update announced. Posted by JoeDP (7 years ago)

    Post #502 Backer update Posted by Matesamo (6 years ago)


    Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

    You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider xtheblackknightx.
    Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

    #40 7 years ago

    Don't be fooled, wait for Amazon.com.

    This is another wild crazy idea by an two enthusiasts milking the pinball cow based on the current market, hoping for idiots.
    Especially whem they are offering mutiple versions of the book.

    "Zombie Yeti" LE Edition?

    Danger Will Robinson, Danger.

    If someone is really curious ask the starter of they have begun to establish a publishing contract IP license use with Stern, Zombie Yeti, or any other artist or designer?

    I want a formal an announcement from Stern first, and I will buy it from the Stern Store someday. Stern does not need KickStarter.

    Let us know their answer.

    Even Gene Cuttingham's rare book on Dave Christian "Mad Dog and His Art" is still available years after finally being published.

    Stick with Dirty Donny's new book.
    Please.

    #41 7 years ago
    Quoted from ZenTron:

    kickstarter wasn't around in '97 or '07. i think the $75 package is pretty good, you get book, poster and t-shirt. If it doesn't get funded you get your money back..

    If it does get funded, people will lose their money when the person goes on vacation and buys a new car.
    Don't be hornswoggled, unless the money does not matter to an individual.

    This is not a "good deal".

    Do people realize over 10-30% (category dependent) of all KS funded projects completely fail?
    The baseline average is 9% across all categories of projects.

    Those that do happen often are massive disappointments (rewards or objectives changes), or are grossly late in production by years?

    Please pass.
    I don't hate anything here in this concept, just the method of creation.
    It is just bring non logical.

    14
    #48 7 years ago

    I stand corrected based on the Expo announcement, but there is a puzzle to be solved.
    I will still wait for Amazon, here is why.

    It still makes absolutely no sense that Stern, a multi-million dollar pinball company, needs to partner with anyone using KickStarter to make a book.

    KickStarter is not a needed service for a real book publisher or author. Santiago Ciuffo did not need KickStarter for his book and this is recent, not 20 years ago.

    What this tells me is this is another market testing initiative to see if there is interest.

    Just a sampling of over a hundred pinball, jukebox, and arcade books I have collected over the decades from all over the world, in dozens of languages. No KickStarts required.

    20161018_170346 (resized).jpg20161018_170346 (resized).jpg

    #51 7 years ago

    Here is some good reading for education.
    KickStarter projects do fail, often.

    Some of the more notable failures in 2015. Note not all these projects were successfully funded. I would have to dig deeper for a comprehensive list of funded failures in the past 5 years.
    http://bit.ly/2dMMgo8

    Some statistics about the operating success of KickStarter based on measured research.
    https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment

    There is no reason to crowdfund a book, there are many other options for any credible author or publisher. This includes other options such as "GoFundMe" which I also think is a misroute for books.

    I actually do see value in crowdfunding for certain subject areas that would be very difficult to get sourced, but not a book.

    #72 7 years ago

    All the enthusiast potential authors details provided in this update should be provided on the Kickstarter campaign. These details were omitted from the funding design. These were important.

    It does not change my position regarding book authorship or KickStarter. KickStarter is not primary advertising concept location.

    If the book is good, great, or fantastic, I have no problem spending $75 in Stern Shop or Amazon.
    Reviews will do the rest.
    The authors can then benefit from additional sales on mutiple primary consumer sales mediums.
    Money is not the concern here personally.

    I don't pre-order concept ideas with no decisive internal content, no estimated delivery date, and if funded no guarantee of anything being published.
    I don't need to explain why this is important or "prove anything" here.

    KickStarter is not a personal contract between a buyer and author of assurance.

    I wish the best of fortune on the project.

    #108 7 years ago
    Quoted from JoeDP:

    You seem like the kind of person who might be remiss if we skipped an important subject. If you are you can get involved now, before it's too late to change the book

    Whatever topics you decide to focus on regarding Stern I have no doubt will be vetted properly and sufficiently with Stern management.
    Your title of the book, says it all, as it is a history.

    If there are any people that could provide insight in writing pinball books (not just knowledge, technical aspects, and history) it would be Rossignoli.
    He knew how to incorporate both good background and high quality photos in a cohesive package and his book took YEARS to write, so the timeframe shown here is quite short, especially for any potential new photography.
    I have self and professionally published myself for technical and thesis work based on requirements of research, which also was very time consuming.

    Maybe Stern has an entire data library categorized with all their accomplishments and details to make it easy for your behalf, I don't know, as I never have asked this question, especially as staff has changed fairly regularly over the past 15+ years.
    This certainly would speed things along.

    As much as pinball is a "passion" to me which has turned me more into a pinball historian now, and my experiences of 30 years of collecting, I can only tell you one small piece of advice. Don't exclusively focus heavily on games designed and created the past 5 years, as this is not a comprehensive look at the manufactured history of Stern, or their relationships (pseudo or not) with Bally/WMS, DE, GTB, and Sega, nor the actual support that was provided by both collectors, owners, and operators that shaped Stern into what they are today (during the dark times). They did not survive by being alone.

    It is too easy for an author to trap oneself based on the simplicity of finding games that fall into this "recent" category and locally well known by new owners today. Some of the most interesting Stern history took place long before games such as Tron.

    Only a few people are left now that know the whole sets of stories.

    8 months later
    #552 6 years ago
    Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

    Seems like almost none of the kickstarters are familiar with the concepts of burn rate or runway.
    It will always be a catch-up game for them as they spend not only the profits but the raw materials cash over the course of a year or two, then wonder why they don't have enough money for the actual production run.
    Then they start another kickstarter, and use the money from that kickstarter to pay for the first one's overages. It's a cycle that will continue and compound until it explodes, unless someone with some business sense steps in.
    This is part of the reason Kickstarter is so attractive to "entrepreneurs" over traditional funding methods. No interest, no timelines, no expectations other than customers who have been trained to go "oh, delays aren't important with kickstarters, it happens".

    BLUF: There are no differences between pre-ordering pinball machines, and KickStarting this book. People never saw the difference. Pinball history rhymes again. Sometimes people have to learn mistakes through trial and error.

    As I stated the dangers of this project in 2016 nearly 9 months ago at the beginning of the thread in several posts, but people decided not to listen, and I was accused being overly harsh and unsupportive, rather than be simply realistic and knowledgeable.
    I included multiple examples of specific KickStarter problems, more naysay, even though I provided a host of important variables and conditions.
    Go back to the first few pages of this thread, what did I and others say?
    People now want refunds for a KickStarter project?

    This is not a "I told you so" post.
    This is not to bash to creative writers or motivated enthusiasts.
    This is a cautionary warning.

    This situation is no different than new attempted manufacturers using pre-order money from potential buyers to build a pinball company.
    It is the same concept, and implied risks are nearly the same, if a buyer gives money direct to a starting company.
    The largest difference is there is no distributor game safety net.

    It does not particularly surprise me that the book and its continued delays was remains unfinished anywhere near the projected date, which has already passed.
    The timeline was incredibly aggressive.

    I only even perused this thread again months later after reading Jonathan's Pinball Magazine article today.
    400+ posts later, and a single major update on the book?
    I do feel bad for people who provided payments, especially $225 or more.

    To recap again for those that were not aware, the source material was not prepared, photo archives were not ready or available, and supporting experienced writers and historians were not brought on board before the project was started, and considered afterwards.
    This is not a Stern children's coloring pinball book here.
    These are fairly significant warning signs, if you are going to write a history book, especially in a niche industry will only a handful of experts.

    Never saw a lot of "oompapa" from Stern jumping in and supporting the project, more like a streetcar passing a crossing light, waving with a smile as they passed.
    That should have been an indication of something, that I don't believe there was a lot of concern for a book with their name on it.
    Very little was ever posted on Stern's website or Facebook accounts, except at the very beginning.
    30th Anniversary passed quickly for Stern Army enthusiasts and the project quite literally disappeared from their interest.
    Another point that did not make sense to me.
    Where was that fanfare again, Stern Army supporters?
    Why was there never any marketing done for this project by Stern?
    Why did not Jody support the project?
    Simply, because it was never their project to start with, or they had no direct interest, other than whatever potential royalties they could earn, which to this point and time is unknown anyway.

    I am not sure where the writers were considering getting all the historical photos and information from anyway, so once again it did not surprise me the focus has changed direction to modern games and information that is more readily available from people that are in the industry today.

    The number of people that have this historical information in their archives is smaller than people most people realize, but it is certainly not unobtainable.
    I have no idea what further resources were contacted after I dropped off the whole subject with the writers, and it is still not clear at this time here, as time and effort is work is worth more than simple acknowledgement.
    I do not specialize in the history of Stern/Data East/Sega games, just repair knowledge as I have owned quite a few of their titles since the 1970s.

    The original concept backers should talk to Michael Shalhoub, if they want to understand the amount of work he put into his volumes and conduct a comparison, it might help have put a perspective on this adventure.
    It was simply enormous task for work on his multiple books.
    Alternatively, people could ask Marco Rossignoli, Richard Bueschel, Bill Kurtz, Gary Flowers, Roger Sharpe, or a host of others.
    Some of the earliest books were written around the 1960s (with photos).
    Some people have passed on, literally.

    I state this from experience of understanding requirements of publishing of my own professional articles and thesis in other subjects such as engineering, technology, contracting, and military history, not just pinball.
    Good research takes time, great books take even more time.
    Independent publication is much easier than in the past, but hardbound takes some sort of proper contract.

    If this historical book actually gets released perhaps someday, then maybe I will add to be my existing extensive library collection through Amazon or other rare book sources on hard to find low production or foreign pinball book titles.
    There will be plenty of opportunities, I don't feel I missed out on anything.

    In five months, Stern will be releasing another game beyond Star Wars, which is already under its final design phase, if people don't already know. This book project could remain in a state of perpetual motion behind in capturing the now 31 years of history, versus 30 years.

    Hopefully, the cycle can be firmly broken, if there are additional future updates, if not the money is gone.

    #557 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rondogg:

    Just sit there in your ivory tower with your $50 waiting to buy it if they make it. Nothing you're doing now helps anything but your already massive, flatulent and verbose ego.

    BLUF: Taking money from others without a legitimate contract is wrong, that is the term used for an investor.
    Consumers are not replacements for investors.

    Money value is not the direct importance here, but the premise remains the same.
    If a person cannot see the validity of the importance of marketing with a company's name on it, then I don't know what to tell you.
    My opinion is unwavering for a reason, I do not flip sides.
    I evaluate games based on gameplay, design, artwork, and features, not opinions.
    The same goes for books, literature, and articles.
    I do have a pretty good idea what "right" looks like when it comes to many things in this area of interest.

    I watched the interviews, and are the same quality as the 2017 NWPAS taping which were good, but extremely short.
    Designers were not providing the full documentation or the authorship for full historical book title development.
    They were not writing or compiling the book either to my knowledge, unless Steve Ritchie has decided to write pinball memoirs, which no doubt would be a great idea.
    Interviews do not make books, interviews provide research for books.

    I have a special significant interest in pinball history and pinball books, I am not just some general pinball enthusiast passing by like a ship in the night or cantankerous old collector jumping on the bash bandwagon.
    I provide pinball documentation to others for other purposes.
    I have a written library for historical context of pinball games starting as early as 1932.
    I would like to go further backwards, but documentation is hard to acquire pre-WW II and especially pre-WWI.
    The records have been destroyed.

    For interest, most of the current members of the Stern Pinball Inc. were not involved in pinball when Sam Stern created his company, many were not born, let alone the generation of separation after Harry Williams sold half his company to Sam many years before. Most people do not even know how Stern Pinball as a concept came to be a reality. I thought this was the focus of the book, where is this history coming from?
    Direct from Gary Stern when he was five years old?
    Even if a person fast forwards to Laser War and Data East in 1986, hardly anyone was around during the time the game was made except Gary himself, John Borg, and Joe Kaminkow. Many of the remaining designers were working for BLY/WMS with a few bits of "flip flopping", and I do not think Gary is writing the book either.

    The same types of things were said about Retro LLC, Zidware, Skit B, Heighway, Dutch Pinball and other mod projects in the past, whether large or small.
    Same errors in concept as this comment, this is just at a small scale.
    Many times when I point things out, people had no idea it had already been done.

    Until someone has conducted the research to write a book/thesis/doctorate in their lives, or they understand the work or the involvement in a publishing contract, which most here do not, there is homework required before making an announcement.
    In essence, the contract was sidestepped in favor of trying to get enthusiasts to front the bill and research was considered.
    Now the game is changing, as is the topic of the book.
    Ignorance is not bliss here, but people want to discount it anyway.

    Don't pick fights with people that try to educate.
    Who really is the combatant here?
    The person trying to educate to avoid the same mistake in the future, or the person that minimizes discussion against the realities of the mistake?

    Even the authors acknowledged my initial words of advice publicly and privately done, out of concern, not spite, but people do not know how to differentiate the differences.

    10 months later
    #945 5 years ago

    I still dont understand why people were not willing to wait for Amazon, as I mentioned nearly two years ago.

    KickStarter is unecessary from my personal experience finishing my own book, securing a publisher, and work with others. You don't need it for this type of project, and you don't even to have a mandated 1000+ run today, if do some homework to keep costs down. That is the "old school" method.

    The conditions were not prepared when the project was started, such as designer, writer, editor, and graphic artist, and now people just seemed to discover these aspects for the first time. After a project is funded, seems a bit out of order.

    In my case, I had to at least show a rough draft transcript to at least get reviewed.

    Keep flipping

    1 week later
    #980 5 years ago

    Life without Kickstarter and a high personal amount of motivation. He even took his own photos.

    IMG_20180521_175623 (resized).jpgIMG_20180521_175623 (resized).jpg

    1 month later
    10
    #1031 5 years ago

    Acquiring necessary source material two years later should not inspire confidence by anyone.

    The key word is necessary, not optional. This is not how to publish a book or even conduct research to begin to write a book of 30 years of history. This also contradicts the statements previously made with final progress. It took me a nearly a year to get the full 10 years of design history for my Ted Zale transcript and finish it.

    Detailed source material is the second step after developing an outline structure and basic transcript (by whomever, contracted or otherwise). Photos, promotional trade media, and development sketches provides depth of study into the topic in question, as it was not covering games since 2010, but 1987. You cannot have a final layout without this stock material. So, which is it? Why does it take two years get material needed that was supported by Stern? This is ass backwards, not logical, and shows lack of concern on behalf of all parties involved. The answer is the layout is not finished, photos not selected, and material remains under review for not revision but inclusion.

    toddtuckey will have released all his book volumes by the time this freight train boxcar continues on its shaky rails, if not derailed sooner.
    I hate seeing people waste money on things they are passionate in learning about only to be disappointed.

    1 month later
    #1072 5 years ago

    New thread title:
    "Paperflock, the latest KickStarter goof"
    (Even Stern Pinball finally admits embarassment)

    Pinball books do not require crowdfunding.
    See TNT Amusements for the latest example, Volume 1 now available. Alternatively, donate money to a charitable good cause, it will make a person feel better.

    #1093 5 years ago
    Quoted from phillymadison:

    Update! We hired a few interns
    The Paperflock Team

    There was already another misquote.
    He said he was hiring a single intern, not that he already did.

    There is no necessity for interns to collate creation of books. It's a rough world today, but you don't have to believe it like Fox Mulder in X Files.

    I am sure something will eventually be released, but not what was expected. I will let the backers be the first reviewers on this final results of this project.

    3 months later
    #1304 5 years ago

    Joe's book back cover mantra:
    its-only-cheating-if-you-get-caught (resized).jpgits-only-cheating-if-you-get-caught (resized).jpg

    Unfortunately, only a handful of people recognized the realities of this at the beginning, and the rest were considered haters.
    We are not haters, but just trying to offer a cautionary tale based on experience.

    #1309 5 years ago

    I am hardly overjoyed about watching the anger of backers after over two years regarding this project.

    I have watched too many years of various successes and failures in this hobby, of which unfortunately many people were not around to see. People simply need to be realistic in terms of goals, planning, and timeframes of which nothing was objectively clear or overestimated in terms of expectations with this project. Joe even asked ME for recommendations of a good writer to use during the funding campaign back in 2016! I offered suggestions anyway, but still was upset in context. I expressed my displeasure here, and people took as some sort of hate cause. You don't decide to make a plan after you take enthusiasts money! This is why I refused early backing for my own Ted Zale book.

    It just reminds of the past, like during the Gene Cunningham BLY/WMS playfield fiascos in the early 2000s.
    Fortunately, for the most part, he eventually corrected the matter at cost of his personal finances.

    1 month later
    #1384 5 years ago

    Stern certainly did take proper photos during their production, but I am not sure what was offered with their CDs. The CDs must be quite disorganized.

    Plenty of chronological high quality images and flyer examples can be found here:

    http://flyers.cdyn.com/pingames/stern/html/chrono.html
    http://flyers.cdyn.com/pingames/data_east/html/chrono.html

    Realizing that you need to take photos of produced (and prototype?) titles two+ years after a start a book about said games is more than a bit embarrassing. Evening Banning and the PHOF don't have every game, but are closer than most. I don't know who he has contacted to fill in the rest of the holes. Some older games are quite difficult to locate. Private collectors many times are the only option.

    I am starting to believe if these authors do actually pull off this book, it will look like shit finger painting, Duke Nukem Forever style.
    meteor-1979-f-2 (resized).jpgmeteor-1979-f-2 (resized).jpg

    #1406 5 years ago

    I am personally curious if anyone knows what happened to Dameon Guess, Joe's partner in the "present case of the missing book". What exactly was his role in this fiasco? Was he supposed to be the ultimate publisher or printer?

    The only thing I could find of recent was a review of Dameon Guess' Jakprints, Inc. company and his LinkIn account:

    https://mgretailer.com/business/marketing-promo/jakprints-dameon-guess-printing-packaging-pro/

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/dameon-guess-b150951/

    #1418 5 years ago

    People should never overlook Joe's quality contributions to the world of modern art masterpieces, such as his "Stormtrooper Jackalope". I am seriously not making this up. This project was completed prior to the KickStarter campaign, so no one can claim diversion of funds here.

    13724828_1811844015719001_9096335223707893484_o (resized).jpg13724828_1811844015719001_9096335223707893484_o (resized).jpg

    10
    #1426 5 years ago
    2rp6v0 (resized).jpg2rp6v0 (resized).jpg
    3 weeks later
    #1443 5 years ago

    Even Todd must agree...after lessons learned from his first book deal.
    He has a pretty wicked sense of humor after many years except regarding GRC.

    2ttzp0.jpg2ttzp0.jpg

    1 year later
    #2561 3 years ago

    Look forward to public book review of this overstanding project.
    I am not sure what will be more entertaining to read?
    If sufficient, I can find a way for obtaining a physical copy for historical archives.

    1 month later
    #2784 3 years ago

    I will buy a book copy, if it shows up on Amazon for $25 (shipped), or if someone here what to pass it on.

    Thanks for the review link.
    It turned out what was directly projected 4 years ago, but people at least received something.
    It has a lineage literature history of its own even if a severe disappointment.
    I just call it the "Stern pinball scrapbook" (Reader's Digest Version).
    The CD they gleaned information from might be a bit more valuable than the book.

    You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider xtheblackknightx.
    Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.

    Reply

    Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

    Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

    Donate to Pinside

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


    This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/stern-coffee-table-book-kickstarter?tu=xtheblackknightx and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

    Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.