(Topic ID: 171152)

Stern coffee table book Kickstarter?!?

By MinusWorlds

3 years ago

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    Topic index (key posts)

    19 key posts have been marked in this topic

    Post #2 Link to Kickstarter project. Posted by ForceFlow (3 years ago)

    Post #74 Feedback on Stern editorial control. Posted by JoeDP (3 years ago)

    Post #109 Talk about editorial choices. Posted by JoeDP (2 years ago)

    Post #120 Confirmation that Batman 66 will be in the book. Posted by JoeDP (2 years ago)

    Post #123 Poster(s) shipping arrangements clarified. Posted by JoeDP (2 years ago)

    Post #130 Project update announced. Posted by JoeDP (2 years ago)

    Post #785 December update from publisher - and promise of further updates Posted by Matesamo (1 year ago)

    Post #913 JoeDP says copy for book has been approved Posted by JoeDP (1 year ago)

    Post #1005 Update from Kickstarter page on book project Posted by KLR2014 (1 year ago)

    Post #1337 Well written complaint to Stern. Posted by j_m_ (9 months ago)

    Post #1482 March 12 backer update Posted by cooked71 (7 months ago)

    Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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    #240 2 years ago
    Quoted from JoeDP:

    No problem I would not want you to invest in something and then later be disappointed by it.

    Thanks a lot! I try hard to be as open and honest about the project as I can at all times.
    Communicating on social media can be very tough for companies that don't have departments dedicated to this kind of thing.
    We all very much appreciate your support!

    It's admirable you want to print the book in the USA, but for a very short run like this it's pretty silly/non-productive. 1000 books isn't going to help any American printer much at all, but keeping the costs down will help every American buyer. You can easily do a book like this overseas with all the bells and whistles for around $3 a book all in, delivered to your shipping location in the US.

    #242 2 years ago
    Quoted from puck:

    incorrect... source : worked for over a decade in the print industry

    Source: Personal, firsthand experience with this stuff for 30 years.

    I mean, I guess it depends on how small the printer is, then. 1000 is absolutely miniscule for any printing operation of size. In the big picture, it will make virtually no difference at all, and small runs are penalized with a cost structure that is designed for larger scale than 1000.

    #244 2 years ago
    Quoted from JoeDP:

    I am open to suggestion
    If you have a manufacturer that you believe will do a good job for less money feel free to share.

    PM me what your quote is, delivered, per book and I'll probably be able to turn you on to a place where you can get it cheaper, or where you can upgrade the quality for less than you're paying. I've worked with domestic and overseas printers for almost 30 years.

    I just realized that the book is simpler than I thought:
    Custom art dust jacket
    Custom art slip cover
    (This is going to be smyth sewn, right?)

    For some reason I thought it was foil-stamped, too. For one that simple at 200 pages, it should be around $2 a unit in quantity. If I can help you, I will point you in the right direction, but this isn't any kind of offer to get involved beyond that or do this for you.

    1 week later
    #386 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    So, the kickstarter is over? I've never done one before, does it reopen up for more orders or will there be another way to order for people who missed out? Thanks.

    Likely there will be other forms of the book at retail or Amazon, etc after the backers are taken care of, just maybe/probably not the LE, and maybe/probably not immediately.

    1 year later
    #846 1 year ago
    Quoted from JoeDP:

    This was a dream of ours! Unfortunately we are pretty sure it is cost prohibitive at the purchasing capacity we have with current orders.
    We will look a little deeper into it, but we know it is very pricey.

    How many pages is this again? 200 or so? If you're doing the printing overseas, the translucent/transparent pages shouldn't add that much to the overall cost per unit, even for a short run, especially if there's only a dozen or two pages per book with this printing.

    #849 1 year ago
    Quoted from cooked71:

    I thought the translucent pages was a given? Wasn't it on the list of features during the sales campaign?

    The cost to do it certainly shouldn't be a reason to cut it because it's just not that expensive, especially if you're doing it overseas as they should for a run like this.

    #851 1 year ago
    Quoted from cooked71:

    Shouldn't they have investigated the cost before listing it as a feature?

    Sometimes you make what you think are reasonable assumptions about things that are an extension of what you already know. It seems like they just found out that the printer(s) that quoted them will charge a lot for this feature, when it can be done inexpensively overseas.

    For example, I try to print here in the US where possible, but sometimes the quotes are so outrageous, I have to go overseas to make something viable. I had a US printer literally raise the cost on a hardbound book run that was much larger than this pinball book by $4/unit just to add a number of colored bookmark ribbons. For cloth ribbons. That feature quote was more than the cost for the book itself. So that one went overseas and turned out fine with a much more reasonable cost.

    So, yeah, overseas is where this Stern book needs to go to control costs and make it as cool as a $55 coffeetable book (edit, didn't realize most of their pledges were for the low level) should be, retaining the transparent/translucent pages (hopefully they even have them designed already - I would think exploding them into layers in a compelling way would be a challenge).

    Domestic Media mail is around $5 for up to 6lbs, and the book shipper/sealing tape is $1 at the very most, so there's $49 for production of the book. For overseas printing, including delivery to the US, I would be shocked if it was more than $7/unit delivered (and likely more like $6) for a short run of 1000, even with the fancy transparent/translucent pages and a nice foil-stamped dust jacket. Unless there's some other real reason for the change, printing cost should not be a cause for cutting that feature.

    #855 1 year ago
    Quoted from Pinballlew:

    Correct, I added more to the previous post.

    $25k stretch for enamel pins? That seems silly. Those are ridiculously inexpensive to make and should have probably been included at the T-shirt level.

    #863 1 year ago
    Quoted from JoeDP:

    It was not Jody, honestly.

    One-armed man?

    #865 1 year ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    Have you at least had the money invested for the past year while nothing has been happening?
    Serious question, as you could have easily made 20% in the past 1 months.

    Or if he bought bitcoin early last year, it'd be worth $650,000 now.

    1 week later
    #880 1 year ago
    Quoted from hool10:

    Hi Joe, thanks for the updates. Take the time that you need but just keep the backers updated on what is going on. Thanks!
    As irony would have it the only KS that has not delivered to me are finally trying to deliver now 6 years later (what a joke)! They have come out of court and can now talk about the game and how they have gone BANKRUPT. They are now looking at yet another Kickstarter and funding models to continue to make the game. They have said that refunds are not possible because they have done exactly what JPOP did. Only when the game comes out can I get a refund. While the game looks promising, I don't care what they have to say at this point and will be getting my $65 back on that nightmare.

    Which one was that?

    #882 1 year ago
    Quoted from hool10:

    A game called "Novus Aeterno" http://www.novusaeterno.com They still have the link to Kickstarter and awards from PAX West from back in '12 displayed proudly on their website.

    If your last award was 5 years ago, probably time to give it up. Hadn't heard of this particular Kickstarter blowout. Thanks for the link.

    1 month later
    #917 1 year ago
    Quoted from cooked71:

    Transparent overlays for the win.

    I checked with the vendor I use for printing in China and adding transparent overlays to a hardbound oversized book adds relatively little to the cost. So, it's probably do-able - IF they have the layered art.

    1 month later
    #932 1 year ago
    Quoted from JoeDP:

    We have all or most of the material we believe we need in order to create the book layout, but after the copy is approved we move into design.
    We have done some design work to establish some formatting things, but the majority of the design is not done yet.

    Wow. Long haul confirmed. Designing 150+ pages of a coffeetable book from scratch at essentially the END of the project won't be completed by next month. This has likely become a Fall 2018 release, which makes 2 years total.

    2 weeks later
    #967 1 year ago
    Quoted from Travish:

    8 weeks. That's 2 weeks times 4.

    Hold on...graphing...

    #973 1 year ago
    Quoted from JoeDP:

    Here is the update that was posted on Kickstarter:
    Hello Kickstarter backers!
    Our new designer shared his mockup for the first 27 pages with us today!
    The designs look great, and we're looking forward to sharing samples with you soon.
    On another note, the photo retouching is going really well too. We are most of the way through retouching the photos for the "story" section of the book. These are the older photos and require the most retouching/editing so this is a good accomplishment.
    Here is a sample of some retouching:
    Thank you all for your support looking forward to getting the book done!

    Colors on the corrected pic look way off. He looks like he has a sunburn in the corrected version, and he obviously didn't in the original. With more natural fleshtone correction, the curtains are gold, which is more likely for that era. I quickly re-did parts of it (top) the original is center, and your correction is bottom.

    sternbook-pic (resized).jpg

    #976 1 year ago
    Quoted from Billy16:

    Hmmm...maybe Joe shoulda hired you, vireland : )

    Uh...no. I have plenty of my own work to do. I had a really crappy surgery recovery around the turn of the year that put me way behind on everything except chatting up pinball and rufffling feathers occasionally, which doesn't pay.

    I was just showing what was possible with not a lot of work or time, and that whoever is doing the color correction is likely very inexperienced and/or not up to the task if they think that sample is a good example.

    #977 1 year ago
    Quoted from spfxted:

    Much better....I was going to do that myself...

    Yeah, but Gary would have been pissed if his dad had a gash on his head and blood running out of his eyes. You can't be trusted with normal.

    #979 1 year ago
    Quoted from hool10:

    I was going to roll my eyes and say that people are picky (I just want the book in my hands haha) but I actually like vireland version. The trick to cleaning up photos is to remove tears, dust, etc but not "improving" or changing that moment in time. Like for example the chair in vireland version is a much richer black and in the altered version it's got a tinge of everything red.

    vireland does this crap for a living, when needed. And just to be clear, I spent maybe 10 minutes cleaning up the sample I did, just to show the direction it SHOULD have taken. It could look even better with more time spent.

    The problem with the correction sample he showed is the color correction was WRONG which affected everything in the picture negatively, so it made Sam ruddy-looking and made his chair look brown rather than black and the curtains look orange. The seam in the chair was also erased, which is wrong.

    I did, however, take a smidge of artistic license in that the white spot on his lips is most-likely from the flash, but it looks better without it, so I removed that.

    4 weeks later
    #998 1 year ago
    Quoted from Phat_Jay:

    So it started two months ago, and the first book will ship in two more. THAT’s how it should be done! Not a year or two...

    I understand about approvals from Stern on content and interviews with creators and designers that take time, etc - they're making a different kind of book from what you're doing. That said, it FEELS like there was little sense of urgency in any of this, and that FIRST photo "correction" sample after a year and a half of nothing was plain embarrassing.

    2 weeks later
    #1017 1 year ago
    Quoted from Billy16:

    I think the Flockers should hold things off just a little longer until Elvira 3 is out...

    If we're expanding the scope to Data East, let's expand to Stern's competitors to get a complete picture of Stern's journey! Why not expand to Deeproot and just release a bigger book next Fall? A homebrew chapter would be cool, too, let's add that and delay it some more!

    In showbiz, these moves would be called vamping.

    #1019 1 year ago
    Quoted from cooked71:

    Good idea. Here’s the first proof...

    Does that still qualify for media mail?

    2 weeks later
    #1048 1 year ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    This and a couple other failed kickstarters have turned me completely off from ever pre-buying into anything. There just isn't enough accountability in the process.

    Meh. I still support KS occasionally. Some work, some don't. I look at it more buying into the POTENTIAL for a cool thing to be made. But yeah, this particular one seems extremely amateurish. It's like they don't have any idea what the flow for making a book should be. At all. And that "photo restoring" - yeesh. So bad.

    2 weeks later
    #1053 1 year ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    He's a lying sack of shit.

    That reads like an insult to shit.

    #1056 1 year ago
    Quoted from puck:

    mrbally vireland you two in on this book?

    I'm here for the entertainment.

    #1063 1 year ago
    Quoted from MinusWorlds:

    Last login on KS was January...
    That’s scary

    Well there was a backer update 39 days ago that someone posted here, so SOMEONE had to log in to Kickstarter to post that...

    #1066 1 year ago
    Quoted from cooked71:

    Guys, quit complaining. Don’t you realize they had to delay the book to include both Iron Maiden and Deadpool now? And I heard they’re also trying to include Munsters, Elvira and Pulp Fiction.
    Seriously, what a f*n joke.
    “I’ve been Paperf*cked.”

    #1073 1 year ago
    Quoted from puck:

    New thread title? Anyone want to share what the new title should be?

    "Paperflock is a Lousy Date"

    #1088 1 year ago
    Quoted from KLR2014:

    This process is taking longer than we expected, as it has been at every stage, but the content we are putting together is first rate!

    That photo restoration sample of the work they're doing on pictures was DEFINITELY not "first rate".

    1 month later
    #1146 1 year ago
    Quoted from ausretrogamer:

    You could ask/complain to PaperFlock (and possibly Stern) on Twitter - that way they cannot delete the tweet.

    Pretty dead twitter, I doubt anyone sees it, including PaperFlock. You're better off tweeting Stern.

    2 months later
    #1266 10 months ago
    Quoted from Max_Badazz:

    This just popped up in KS:
    Hello Kickstarter Backers,
    I know you guys are waiting for an update. I'm sorry we have been quiet this month, but I promise we have been making progress!
    This is just a micro-update to let you know that we will be posting a bigger update on Monday!
    Thanks for your patience, Joe and Dameon, and the Paperflock Team

    They have wi-fi on the beach!

    #1296 10 months ago
    Quoted from j_m_:

    I was going to comment on kickstarter, but I really don't see the point. if he considers taking 30 elements!!! from the stern asset discs (as he's joyfully stated) and slapping them on a spread, this man doesn't have a fucking clue what he's doing. some one the age of 8 could have done this (and probably have done a better job
    there was no thought involved whatsoever in taking a bunch of stock images and just resizing them so that fit on a 2-page layout
    but wait! the layout guy did overlay 2 of the elements over an image of the playfield. I'll bet that took him a week to do
    seriously, the one guy that did comment on this update said "looks great, I can't wait!"
    and as for his comment of "I know that we are making the best pinball book that we've ever seen", he might as well as stated "the best book that he's ever seen" because it's obvious he's never looked at any books (even comic books, which have much better layouts

    It is a very amateurish layout, but I didn't want to be bitchy and point that out after demonstrating how bad their "photo retouching" skills are in the book sample. So, since you said it - I agree.

    #1297 10 months ago
    Quoted from paul_8788:

    I think the layout looks fine, only so much you can do without either displaying fewer pictures or having an overlapping mess.

    You can do a LOT more long before it becomes a mess. The visual interest just isn't there.

    1 week later
    #1326 10 months ago
    Quoted from Phat_Jay:

    Remember this joe? We do.
    Post #53.
    He guaranteed the book would come out. Sounds like a personal guarantee to me, possible avenue for class action lawsuit.

    Well, it says Stern's reputation is on the line, so of course...uh, wait...nevermind.

    1 month later
    #1408 9 months ago
    Quoted from JodyG:

    I wonder if they will swing by the jail to collect Trudeau's signature for the $325 folks?

    No need. Trudeau'll be in court tomorrow for a plea. They can just catch him while he's waiting for his case to be called.

    1 month later
    #1446 8 months ago
    Quoted from ahdelarge:

    2019 is going to be our year. I can feel it. A pinball book for Christmas!

    If there's a full investigation, there might even be two bookings this year...

    #1448 8 months ago
    Quoted from ahdelarge:

    So, is this book going to be trapped in the world of the Ghostbusters release or will we see art from Iron Maiden, Deadpool and The Munsters?

    Who knows? Who even knows where the book layout REALLY is? We've seen a couple bad photo retouching samples, an amateurish layout sample and that's it. There's no way to know where the book will cut off or if it will ever really see the light of day.

    #1457 8 months ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    What does it take to start a class action lawsuit? I would name paperflock and stern. Because stern clearly promoted this. I bet something would happen then.....

    Not enough money in it for the lawyers.

    3 weeks later
    #1487 7 months ago
    Quoted from cooked71:

    Project Update # 36 - check your inboxes:
    Hello Kickstarter Backers!
    We have made a lot of progress in the last two months!
    As you know we got the Stern CD Archive a few months ago and have been working hard to integrate all of the images into layouts based on each machine. The Archives are great and have original artwork in them making the pages SO much more dynamic, but they don't have pictures of the completed machines, at least not at the resolution our print quality demands, so we have been shooting every machine ourselves!
    We had another shoot last month at the Vegas Pinball Museum where we knocked out 15 more machines!
    ► Play video
    They gave us a corner of the room to work in and unlocked each machine for us so we could take the glass out to photograph them without glare, and were overall extremely helpful!
    And we have already completed the cutting out of all of those machines, and finished layouts and basic color correction too! This was ALOT of work. And now we have a test print of all of our pages to date!
    Finally, Jeremy (Zombie Yeti) has been working with us on the art for the other incentives, which should be ready to send to print / manufacture before the end of this month!
    We have a meeting with Stern to review pages next week.
    We have more color correction to do (things look different after you see them printed).
    And we have a little more layout detail to do like captions and other things, but the work is over 90% of the way done!
    We know this has been a long haul, we know people are waiting, but you haven't seen a pinball book like this before, we promise!
    Thank you all for your continued patience and support, Joe, Dameon, and the Paperflock team.

    I still don't get the shooting machines again when Stern gave them all the assets from the flyers already. If those were print ready, the ones in the last 15-20 years should have PLENTY of resolution unless they're blowing up the playfield on all the machines. And if they're shooting machines at the PHOF, those machines may or may not be in an original configuration, so as a reference, this book will be worthless.

    I also hope their "color correction" is better than the single example they posted a year or so ago...

    1 month later
    #1502 5 months ago

    But they said, "...we will meet the challenges head on and not be satisfied until the product is amazing and people get more than what they hoped for."

    They wouldn't lie, would they?

    #1527 5 months ago
    Quoted from WackyBrakke:

    I think it's all bullshit. They stole the money and ran. All the updates are fake news.

    Fake news doesn't exist. It's fake or it's news. News by definition is not fake. That term drives me crazy.

    So in this case, the updates are likely lies or partial truths.

    #1535 5 months ago
    Quoted from Spelunk71:

    I think Joe had good intentions in the beginning, but laziness, incompetence, and probably some hot interns have taken their toll. Making books is hard.

    Especially if your blood is always away from your brain too many times a day to count in exotic locations.

    #1550 5 months ago

    The "improved" layout is really pedestrian. Super-amateur. I mean, it IS better than the original placeholder layout, but only just.

    #1567 5 months ago
    Quoted from unigroove:

    I guess there must have been a lack of supervision on the person who put these pages together. That original Laser War layout makes no sense what so ever. Whoever did that should have been fired from that job instantly. Yet they let him/her continue the whole book? Seems very odd. In fact, it seems so odd, that I'm actually expecting the person who did the layout came up with the page they now show as approved, and they just whipped together a few worse looking pages that make no sense at all. Could it all just be such a smokescreen?

    I don't believe they did the whole book with the layout that looked like the crap one. No one is that dumb. This is just another way to buy more time.

    #1590 5 months ago
    Quoted from KLR2014:

    another update:
    Hello Kickstarter Backers!
    First, I want to tell you we are rocking our way through these layout revisions and have done about a dozen since our last
    update a week ago!

    Meh. Layout IS improving, but still too little, too late.

    #1608 5 months ago
    Quoted from vicjw66:

    Unbound. Jpop will then come to your house and help you staple the pages together.

    Or, it will LOOK like that's what he's doing, but there will be no staples in the stapler. Only an impotent "click", "click", "click" with nothing to show for it.

    1 week later
    #1621 4 months ago
    Quoted from unigroove:

    Let me put it like this: if I was paid $50K to produce 500 books, I would make sure it was ready in time and it would be so impressive that it would create an even bigger demand for reprints.

    Especially since the lion's share of that $50k wasn't even hard costs to print and ship the books.

    3 weeks later
    #1632 4 months ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    man this book looks like absolute shit!

    From the examples, the layout looks really inconsistent and poor. For example, I think showing the full plastic set and actual keyfobs a pin came with could be very useful for the present and future, but they don't do it on all of these, and in the case of Harley, they use the plastic set picture as a design element and have it bleeding from one background into another. Also, they have the SAME EAGLE shown in the plastic set and then overlaying the sticker sheet on the left. Crappy.

    1 month later
    #1654 81 days ago
    Quoted from NeilMcRae:

    Yeh but we can get pictures from google images, what I was hoping for was more about the story of building these games...

    Yeah, precious little about the games and their creation/stories, etc. Lots of photos and that's about it. Not really a great time capsule coffee table book.

    1 week later
    #1684 72 days ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    Paperflock will sell no pinball book, before its' time....

    Orson Welles in the studio is a force of nature. My favorite...

    1 month later
    #1715 37 days ago
    Quoted from unigroove:

    No need to worry about that. Unlike Pinball Magazine - where a full page is used for a complete playfield of a modern game - the playfield images in this book will be so small, you won't be able to notice any details...

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