I was big fan of Stern with what I saw with all software of AC/DC,near of every 2-3 month it has new software,I sold all my old game (TZ,IJ,GNR,CP,CV,TOM...) to buy each new arrival of Stern,Avengers,AC/DC,Metallica,X men
What a mistake:Stern has chance to beat all this game with good software and they missed the boat
I'll never buy Stern game
Thanks to Jersey Jack to show us that it's possible to make new software each month

Seems like they are already past that point unless they take a "new game holiday" and rerun some old games while the programmers catch up.

ST xmen and MET are in definite need of code updates. I consider acdc, TRON, tf, avengers complete or at the very least great games if they never got another code update. Could they use some polish in the oven? Sure, but what game doesn't?

I don't care if stern doesn't release games unfinished, but by golly man, have them complete or near complete within 6 mos. xmen (and what appears to be Metallica now too) code update progress are perfect examples of unacceptable in my book.

metallica will be getting a code update with new songs. john borg stated this on the new spooky pinball podcast.

as for x men.....................?

Stern has lost me as a NIB customer over the code and pricing issues. They overpriced STLE and they now have a competitor who builds high quality, imaginative games and puts out regular code updates. We also have the option of remakes of popular games with completed code right out of the box.
Stern might change their plan eventually to respond to these changes, but I will not believe it until I see it happen.

Most of your list of games is complete. MET is not done but being worked on. I think you can forget about WOF. The real problem is your perception of done. ACDC is most certainly done IMO. TF is also done IMO. The real issue is not if they're done or not it's the perceived quality of the software. Many, dare I say most, people buy the game before they try it and complain it doesn't meet their expectations in some way. Those people only have themselves to blame. JJP released oz in a REALLY unfinished state yet 99+% of people purchased before they tried. And people do this over and over.

The blame is not with stern or JJP, the blame lies with most everyone here.

There was to be another Tron update coming. Don't know what happened with that.

X-men is not complete yet. Rumor in other threads is that they will finish it even after Ritchie said they probably wouldn't.

There's your problem. Most rumors started here are comical at best.

New songs??? Not heard that but great if true...

MET and ST are the only ones incomplete in my eyes, and they are the two most recent releases. I don't think it's practical to expect continuous releases of code for years. Once the rules are complete and most bugs are addressed, it's done. A few games have gotten extra attention after completion but to expect that for every title is probably setting yourself up for disappointment. The JJP comparison here isn't relevant as they have one game out and its rules aren't compete.

True. It was stated on Stern's website (Facebook), but yes until it happens it is a rumor. I would hope the final Wizard Mode would have more than just a place holder that says "Wizard Mode". That is just one of the big reasons I would say it is not finished.

Just like this nugget of information, which is just conjecture until done:

Looks like we are both hoping for the same thing.

The rules are done in sterns mind for ACDC, XMEN, TAV.
Stern better finish Metallica cause the end of line mode doesn't exist and its right on the damn playfield.

It would be nice to have an updated code for CSI.

X-men was on the assembly line in November, just last month, so as long as they are still making money off of it, still plan on doing further runs, and it is sitting in distributor's shops, they should finish it. When X-Men Days of Future Past hits the theaters, they would be crazy to not rerun again as some of the modes tie into the movie. If they are going to continue to profit off of it, finish it. Many of the other titles mentioned that aren't done don't have plans to be rerun and aren't sitting on distributors' floors.

They have a list of bugs in another thread, and there is a Wizard Mode that has the rules, but just says Wizard Mode without the animation. Put in the animation for that Wizard Mode, fix the bugs, and "Maybe" throw in some enhancements, and put the machine to bed.

and from what we saw in the last speech from garry, he doesn't really care about us, all he wants is games out the door as fast as possible. we don't look that important to him but he better think about it now, we will be the last costumers buying pinballs in a near future, there is less and less ops/places outhere and the collectors community is getting bigger.

so as long as he thinks that way, it won't change.
it will be a long time before i buy another new stern. can't wait for the hobbit! i see the future there!

Anyone that says X-men is done and has complete code is full of shit and doesn't know what they are talking about. It is hardly even done

TRS, IM and BBH were all done when they were released. That's clear. Did you forget about those games?

When you start your post with an obviously incorrect statement like that, it cancels out everything that comes after it.

Those were made during the lean years and had much simpler rulesets & less mechanical features...and each one was a very similar variation on the other....so, of course they were "finished". Once things started getting more complex again - that's when the code issues hit.

No they weren't. '07 and '08 were the lean years. Those three game were built after the new investors came on board. BBH and IM were an attempt to shorten ball times and simplify rules, in the hopes that it would increase sales to (and earnings for) ops. It wasn't done to save costs.

So is that what you want now? Or do you think Stern should sit on hardware designs for a year or two until the software catches up? If you want deep rules, you have to wait. No way around that.

I for one cannot complain about avatar, TRS or BBH. yes they are simple games but they seem complete. wolverine? joke. 13 months ago I was ready to sell mine at a $500 loss; it was a joke. the first update was an insult. the second? just as bad. the third? put it this way. it may be an amazing game now but I'll never own one again. the voices bothered me more than anything. Beast? sounded like a chemistry professor. Storm? an Asian hooker.

STLE on the other hand seems amazing out of the box. I'm sure we will get more code but as a first offering it's top notch!

'07 was FGY, Spider-Man, WOF
'08 was BDK, IJ, CSI

None of those were "lean" games aside from IJ (which ironically has "unfinished" or at least just shitty software lol)

You're kidding yourself if you don't think NBA, IM, Avatar, BBH, Stones & Tron were simplified to save costs. OF COURSE THEY WERE! They just got off of high cost games with low sales. They bare-bonesed those games so they could make 'em cheap. NBA & IM were re-workings of old games so they could save on development/design costs. Sure the ball time/simple rule thing is part of the equation as well...but BOM was #1 concern.

When the new investors came in is irrelevant. TF was the first game after the investors came in that tried to get back into more complex rulesets & more mechanical features (on the LE version anyway).

Well I guess I only have two choices, eh? It is what it is. Deep/simple - I don't care - I just want a complete and fun vision. X-Men is "deep" but a gaddamn mess. Tron is "simple" but insanely fun. Whether Metallica becomes deep or not, I don't really care - all I know is there are a ton of things missing. I don't mind waiting - I'm definitely more patient about this stuff than most...I've said it before - Stern's biggest problem isn't the unfinished code, it's the lack of good communication concerning the issue. Publicly, they put their head in the sand but customers just want to know the facts from the source. As long as they have code probs and don't publicly state what the deal is - they will lose sales from regular customers. You can say "just wait" but people really DON'T know if Stern will finish games. WOF was left for dead. Steve said X-Men wouldn't be finished (although Stern then backtracked on that). Even if we hobby types "know" that code is being worked on...there's always a lingering doubt. That's Stern's biggest PR problem with repeat customers or hobby types who read forums. I would have have purchased Star Trek if Metallica didn't have so much missing stuff.

Stern created this problem by marketing to the home buyer with their "3 legged" stool concept. Home buyers, the target of the LE models, want a polished product because they are paying a premium. Owning the machine gives them infinite access to digging into the code and replayablitity is more important as they aren't making a living off of coins being dropped in.

Code to operators is not as important as to how many coins are in the box. An operator could care less if there is a Deadpool mode in X-men as it wouldn't generate anymore income to them.

I realize that marketing to the home owner has generated more revenue for Stern, but I wonder if they considered the cost of going after that market. Different markets have different expectations.

in all fairness B/W, DE/Sega etc never targeted collectors and their games are for the most part pretty complete minus bugs AFAIK

I thought the code for CSI was fairly complete , no?

If anything.. I would suggest Indiana Jones! (I know, wet dream!)

Agreed.

However, if one of the three legs is the doctor/lawyer/rich guy with a McMansion and three car garage and family (using Gary's terminology here) I doubt they care about "finished" code either...most of them are not hobbyists/collectors or highly competitive players; they just want something cool for their basement/gameroom the entire family can enjoy. I don't see them complaining unless there is a physical/electronic problem.

Another leg is the enthusiast/hobbyist/collector, which can probably be divided up as well. What percentage of collectors are purchasing the LE/Premium models, vs. Pros? Either way, it's probably fair to say this leg as a whole is the most vocal and angry about software issues.

Then there is the operator leg. They don't really care about finished code, as long as it plays okay. (Myself included. X-Men is not earning much better than before its last excellent update.) I am not a good enough player to get to any wizard modes, neither are my location players, or even almost all the players in our league.

Can Stern stand on two of three legs? I guess it all depends on how large globally the collector market is. The US alone is not even close to being Stern's entire market, as large of a player that it might be.

-Mark

Thank you for making sense. These threads always bring out people like you who can cut through the noise.

Code is never finished on any software platform. Everyone has to ship. And great artists ship often.

I was thrilled with the quality of avengers code on release and am perfectly fine if its never touched again. Xmen code is almost there. A few dots and a couple bug fixes and its good. Game is fully playable and pretty fun now. Acdc is a code masterpiece. Some of the best pinball software of all time (even though I'm not a huge fan of the game). Transformers is fine. Does not need an update. I hit the battle for cyber tron wizard mode this weekend for first time.

Metallica is the biggest problem at stern right now. The games software is so barren that I consider it unplayable. Was fun a couple weeks but now its just idle. Star Trek is in great shape already. I know there's more to come, but that game is fully playable and plays great.

I own a lot of sterns. And the two games I own with the worst code are Metallica and WoZ. Why isn't there a matching topic on this for JJP?

Because JJP give new code for WOZ each month.Just for fun look what Stern gave for the last 4 games on the last 9 month and you gone understand

I agree for the most part the games were finished with a few exceptions. They also weren't as deep as new games which is a big change that I have seen from then to now.

The cool thing is many of those games are getting second looks. Star Wars had its rules redone, Jurassic Park is getting its rules redone by someone on Pinside, CV became finished after B/W closed its doors, CC had an extensive change with CCC, and TOTAN and NGG have scoring issues that I am sure will be addressed by code people someday.

Bottom line- as these machines become more expensive and collectors/players are the consumers, expectations are going to rise. Fairly/Unfairly, without having a crystal ball, nobody knows how bad unfinished code will affect Stern's bottom line. If they keep selling out allotments to distributors, things are probably not going to change just because people are complaining on a pinball forum.

Lets look at the last four games. I own them all:
- xmen - code almost there. Needs a little polish only. I'm happy. Even if its never updated again, there are worse coded games. Xmen has a lot to do. Goals and wizard mode there now. I'm happy.
- avengers - code release almost done. I guess wizard mode dots aren't too good. I haven't gotten there. Game feels solid and polished and the rules are all there. Very satisfied. Game released this way. No updates requires. I'm happy.
- Metallica - a Lyman game. Worst code progress at this stage in pinball. It should get better but the game is close to unplayable. I'm not happy
- Star Trek - code is really good even if it never updates. The game feels solid and complete. Lots more is yet to come. Very well done. I'm happy.

As for frequent WoZ updates, that's because of two reasons:

1) JJP has one game. So their staff of developers either works on that it sits idle watching soap operas on TV. I doubt hobbit is at coding stages yet.

2) WoZ was released with unplayably incomplete code. Way worse than even xmen initial release. So ya they have to update regularly. Even with all these updates, WoZ still feels less complete than stern's Star Trek.

Look its great to have 58285727275 threads on incomplete code. After all, no one has heard it before, right? But its silly for a known JJP enthusiast to complain about *stern* code and not acknowledge that woz code is even worse. How about we start a thread "JJP unfinished code 100% of their games unfinished". Or "JJP had never finished code, ever"

I'm not complaining about JJP code either. It'll get done. But it makes no sense for the same folks bitching about stern and even acdc code to be happy with JJP.

Btw, I own WoZ and have full paid for hobbit. So I'm not biased one way or the other.

Agree with Markmom. Metallica has been out in limbo since July/August. Really surprised nothing has been released yet as far as an update. I do have faith that Lyman will update the game though and it is just a matter of time.
WOZ still needs some updating but again I have faith that Keith and Co will finish the game.

I generally agree with Markmon. But just because there are worse coded games out there, does not mean that a game should be considered done. Xmen and Avengers are solid games. Not nearly as incomplete as Metallica. But having final ultimate wizard modes with only placeholder dots is crap. This is the ultimate mode in the game - e.g. in Avengers, its Battle for Earth, the whole 3rd act of the movie which was epic. This needs dots, callouts, etc to be in any way considered a finsihed game. Same for Xmen's final wizard mode. All of your work to progress to an ultimate mode and it has only basic text? That's crap and a huge let down. Xmen has basic features that are not done. And AV has some easy to fix bugs (why does the Thor flasher not flash when in his mode?). Sure the games are solid as they are, but when you pay what we pay for NIB games, they should be complete and free of easy to fix bugs.

The days of pulling the plug early on a game should be over. Too many people are fed up with this nonsense.

I agree XM and Metallica are the ones that desperately need updates.

Talk to Stern and your distributors directly about this. It's even better with an intelligent writeup with justifications that equate to $$$ for Stern. Create the letter, send it off to your distributor, Stern, and post it here for completeness.

As long as home buyer's rebel against unfinished code, by NOT buying future games, thing's will improve... Stern has the mindset of an operator mentality, meaning, like other's have stated above, It doesn't matter that there isn't a wizard mode for Metallica , the average player, will only look at "Hey, this is a new machine, let me dump money into this and play it".
But Stern must realize, that most of their business is now home owner's....and the demand is a complete coded game.
I think they are getting the message...If they read here....I hope.

as much as I would like the stle, I will never buy another stern if xmen does not get a completed wizard mode and polishing up. Complain about woz code all you want , they are at least still updating it

Though I completely agree; it reminds me of the days of Nintendo when they produced a super deep game, then when you complete it you get one happy picture that says The End.

Like Ghosts N' Goblins, when you defeated the last boss, you get told that you have to get the "special weapon first". Then you have to play all the levels over again. Then you beat all the levels again, get the weapon, beat the last boss, and you get the crappy text congratulating you. I did that once. Bitter sweet moment.

If you have ever played this game, do yourself a favour and watch this video. I laugh my ass off every time I watch it. Its brilliant.

Oh man - THAT is funny. Made my night

Well said

YES, Please! Please! Please! Give us more! Give us more!

More polls and posts about Sterns incomplete code!

We're down to about one every 15 minutes!

What's happening?

More Please!

What I don't understand is why any programmer worth their salt would create a game where someone can get to the ending and be let down like that. You would think that they would take it as a challenge to make something special level that would make all of the play up to that point worthwhile.

That number is ridiculous. ST and MET aren't finished. Everything else is.

They've already wasted way too much time on it. XM will never be considered an A title. Move on.

You mean like BDK? This isn't new.

It's no different than they have in the past. Spidey, which came out more than 6 years ago, was way more bare than any recent Stern game. Some games actually shipped with version 0.0 software. Ever play that software?

Their main business in North America is probably now two of three legs of Gary's stool. But globally, I still think Stern's largest customer base is the remaining leg, the operators.

Stern pretty much started this mess almost two years ago, with the introduction of the LE/Premium line with AC/DC. I think they didn't realize how much extra time is required to code two versions of every game released. They probably quickly fell behind, having a lean software team to begin with. Only in the last seven months have they hired two additional software engineers.

In addition to new game releases to code, and updating existing games, there was The PIN, and presumably, a new display and board system in the works.

So, yes. I'm sure Stern is getting the message. I know they are working diligently to improve their development and release process. They are in fact trying to get out of the perpetual "catch up" mode, which has been the case since at least X-Men, maybe AC/DC initially as well.

Also, I feel compelled to mention this:
There are other passionate software peeps at Stern besides Lyman working their butts off over there.

-Mark

There were 4 Multi-tier games before AC/DC. It actually started with Avatar LE...then Stones LE, Tron LE, and Transformers LE.