Boston, MA
Is the Stern bashing justified? Yes. Is the Stern praise justified? Yes.
(Topic ID: 197082)
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Quoted from jgentry:Very strange that AS is good and the next game is issues all over again.
People were not buying games because of the playfield issues, so they had to step up and pay more for good ones. That brought us AS playfields. Then with SW they went back to the less expensive playfields, with the problems.
How do I know the AS playfields were more expensive? Because they were better. How do I know SW playfields were cheaper? Because they were worse. If anyone thinks they were the same cost to Stern, Stern would have obviously used the AS process again if cost was the same. Basic math.
Quoted from Rarehero:Some games dimple. Some games crater. There's a difference. Cratered games will never smooth out. They'll always look like lumpy clay. Stern games have been inconsistent in this way since around Star Trek. My friend's LE looked like absolute mush, mine has some dimples but was overall glassy and smooth.
So please, when people complain about dimples, don't treat them like they're newbs and don't get it. There are different levels of dimpling. Acceptable metal/wood, and craters. Craters never even out or look good down the road.
If I still had GOT, I'd pull the apron of that and my IMVE and setup a ball drop test with a rig that would drop from a very specific height.. I am quite sure the result would be that the GOT dimple would be larger, deeper, and more noticeable. There is definitely a difference between games. The whole "metal wins every time" might be true, but the result is worse when the wood is softer.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Didn't bally try plastic playfields in the 1970s? I believe they did on a few select Rolling Stones. The experiment was a failure as posts kept stripping out.
Remember folks, "innovation" in pinball usually sucks.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:sure did. SPeakeasy was one of the games that had them, as well as cybernaut.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:As you can see below, that attempt at innovation failed as not only did the plastic warp, they were still prone to wear due to insert problems of expansion and contraction rates
I own a Harlem Globetrotters with a plastic playfield. It is simply stunning. It is still flat as glass, and is in amazing shape. I would say it is in the best shape of any classic playfield I have ever seen (and I have seen a LOT of classic games). I wish they had kept at that experiment.
Quoted from calprog:Stern makes the best new pins!!!
Agree
Quoted from calprog:They have the best designs and themes.
Themes, yes. Designs... well they are getting generic.
Quoted from calprog:I have very few quality issues.
But can you acknowledge that others are having pretty big quality issues?
Quoted from calprog:The old ones were not much better.
It was a different world. It used to be operators, and an operator never cared a whit about a ghosted insert, or even a busted up shooter lane or trough entry. All they cared about were quarters going into the coin slot. It was a money earning machine, not a work of art. Any games that went into homes were sold to the rich people that rarely played them, and when they didn't work, they called an operator that did service calls.
Quoted from Mike_J:Agreed.
I am sure the rep from Stern walks into the lumberyard and announces, "Give me 10,000 sheets of your cheapest/shittiest plywood".
I'd suspect it goes more like "Give me 10,000 sheets of plywood and I have $40,000 to pay for it".
Quoted from solarvalue:Some guy already did this:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/live-dimple-quest-the-ultimate-test
I'd want to see more extensive testing. These were all drops from 1 foot, and his measurements seem to state that the dimples on all of them were about the same size from that height. However it is virtually impossible to get a ball drop from that height inside a pinball machine. I'd really have wanted to see other heights, and drops that had trajectories that were more ballistic in nature (shots not being perpendicular, but speed going in a direction towards the side as well).
And yes, I realize that at some point, I'm just going to have to do that testing myself.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:To be be brutally honest, Stern would be better off re releasing older games from the 90s (DE), than some of the crap they did since 1999.
I disagree. There is not a single DE game that would sell well. Whereas after 1999 Stern has done some amazing games. For the very few customers that would desire that, they could buy one, restore it, and still have spent less than Stern would charge for a remake.
Quoted from colonel_caverne:Of course. Here is a pic. I just want to how Stern warranty works? Period? When period starts?
Game built august 2016. got it nib around 4 months ago. I know I should have asked earlier, but it did not prevent me from playing ..and time is gone..
That looks more like a setup nick than anything. I thought we were going to see wrinkled decals or ones that were not straight. I'm sure I get bigger scars on my games during parties at the house. Ignore that one or like he said, color it a bit so it doesn't stick out. Then play.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Permanent Sharpie paint pens (as they are made in a variety of colors and tip widths presently available) are an effective means to correct very minor playfield and cabinet deficiencies. Black permanent markers were used in factories, but were a poor choice for repairs due to reaction with cleaners and wax.
Many people likley already own games that used them at some point including NIB games and do not know. This is especially true for cabinets. This is not a cost cutting measure by manufacturers. The is the equivalent to furniture makers using stain markers, or automotive industry using paint markers.
There are of course better alternatives, but that requires someone that actually has proper paint skills, tools, and materials.
Paint pens or markers are not optimal on playfield surfaces due to clear coat with potential smear unless inside deep fine cracks (such as hairline planking). I prefer "One Shot" enamel paints and spot automotive clear. These paints are can be much more expensive and are impractical for workers in factories.
Stern to my knowledge does not have an artist corrective department used by other companies in the past for quality control predominantly because volumes of sales cannot justify the added overhead today. Normally this process is done before clear coating for permanency on playfields. Cabinets are simply inspected and touched up as required after construction.
Those that restore playfields are familiar with these techniques described.
This seems to be another OMG inaccurate 'Chicken Little' moment (AKA new pinball buyer syndrome) of both what cost cutting is and is not, and developing false expectations on game production as a whole.
This does not play into the argument of "Stern bashing".
Mass game manufacturers do not re sand and clear coat playfields over again for small blemishes (they do try to buff them out though), nor apply new cabinet decals to minor scratches.
I can share that certain manufacturers have redone playfield clear coat productions for ghosting issues, but only when production runs were very small such as IPB BBB.
If this a major concern buy NOoB (New Out of Box).
Distributor floor models are an excellent choice alternative, as you can see what a person is buying.
Just don't buy samples, including at pinball shows, as sometimes final features are omitted or simply don't work right.
A great recent example is the whole "Alien is shipping", when they were simply advanced prototype unfinished games.
How can you write this much about someone going "boop" with a Sharpie? Sometimes you provide some interesting historical perspective that is right on, however "boop" doesn't require a loquacious post like that.
1 week later
Quoted from Hazoff:U own 2 models of the same game? that makes sense.
I've seriously considered it with AC/DC. I have the Pro VE, and I've debated the Prem VE. If I had more space I'd probably do it. Great game.
Quoted from smassa:Don't agree with this at all. Maybe if every title they sold was a major hit. Sometimes they run into a Game like Mustang, WWE, Rolling Stones or any other game that doesn't sell well. They probably employ 10 times as many people as the other companies combined. They have a game that doesn't sell well it hurts their bottom line & so when they end up with a hit they can make up for titles that done sell as well as anticipated.
Bad games don't hurt their bottom line like they used to. In the past, a bad title wouldn't sell, and would then go on closeout. You could buy a fully built game at a much cheaper price. You don't see that anymore because now they build on demand. There are not 30 extra cabinets printed and ready for a particular game, there are 30 sets of stickers (MUCH less expensive to them). There is the first run of playfields and the first batch of game particular parts, but again, they are not assembled (the big cost in a playfield).
A bad game just doesn't have that bad an impact on the bottom line. The real cost was the lost opportunity of having them on the line when they could have made a popular game going. Now if a game isn't selling well they can react to that quickly and stop making it. If it starts selling later, they are ready to go.
Quoted from Who-Dey:And don't forget, Dwight said that our GB is considered finished and it doesn't even have the final wizard mode yet!
"Who brought the dog?" IS the wizard mode. It is just a bit easier to get to than normal wizard modes.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:The issue is not Stern's programmers, who are very talented, but rather Stern management who is rushing programmers from one project to the next due to the number of titles they are making per year.
How many games are they putting out? 3-4? How many programmers do they have? It seems to me there is something else going on. It looks like each programmer works on one game per year. At most two. How is that not enough time to write a game.
I take Lyman out of that equation because it was my understanding he was working on SPIKE OS stuff to put it together. But still, the output of their programming staff doesn't add up to the time it takes. Unless they are all part time.
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