I can't say that I'm completely through with Stern since Maiden, Elvira, Guardians, Munsters, and a few others are definitely in my pin-nerd wheelhouse but, if they keep cutting corners and even taking out something simple like a headphone jack (Spike 2.0) then, I'll just have to play them on location and be happy with that.

Spooky is the future of pinball for my wallet now.

It's not "fascinating" It's just that some of us have been buying and fixing machines for over 20 years and disagree with his assessments. "Human condition" lol

Look at Rare's pics of that WD. Soft wood creates these deep depressions aka "craters". I have a TWD Prem and while the wood is not as soft as his example I can tell it's not going to end up with the more "elegant" orange peel-like surface my MM has (that I bought 20 years ago and watched it go through this process). Or my LOTR, TSPP,etc. Not all of Stern's PF's have this softer cheaper wood but some definitely do. But you'd have to have had some WMS/BLY games bought NIB in the past to see this process firsthand to compare. Or actually just some Stern's from 10 years ago for comparison.

It's not a completely new phenomenon either. 20 years ago I bought CV NIB and it had such abnormal divots and cratering I got the dist to take it back. This worked out for me as I then bought it on closeout cheap and this machine had the normal, considerably harder PF. Same as the NGG I bought NIB on closeout (still have both along with the MM,etc)

So even back in the day you'd run into the occasional abnormally soft PF. It's an organic material so there will be some variations. The clear had nothing to do with it.

Now if MOST of Stern's machine's start showing this deep dimpling you can probably conclude they are indeed sourcing cheaper wood for the PF's (or their subcontractor). I don't think we've gotten to this point just yet.

Yeah that Star Wars was a major fail.

Epic fail.

It almost hurts my feelings. How can I love pinball & love Star Wars but not buy a Star Wars pinball?

Because it is so stripped bare, so expensive, so... grrrrr, man I'm borderline pissed lol.

I don't want to shit on Steve Ritchie & blame him. For all I know he's a conference room w/sr leadership saying "Told ya fuckers, hope you're happy"

SR just wants to keep his job. He will kiss Gawy's ass till his last day.

Maybe they're using shitty uncured cheap wood on their splitting cabinets & cratered ghosted chipping playfields.

Dude maybe you didnt read the part where I can see the wood is different.

So let me be reeeeally clear.

***The wood is different***

And it aint for the better.

(Nothing personal Neo)

Its not a QC issue actually. Its a materials issue. I'd imagine it was intentional too since cheap shit is, well, cheap.

Favorite game in my house right now...and in others' I know who bought the game. It's really a great game and the code isn't even done yet.

If the new business norm is squeezing every bit of profit from every single part on the machine, it's not a stretch of the imagination that the playfield wood would be included in the squeezing.

This sentence applies to lots of Stern games it seems.

If more people were like us the world would be a great ducking place (auto correct).

Stern bashing is for me .... not unjustified.

The pins are bright, but that's all. I decided that I would never again purchase a Stern machine after the Star Trek (which has stayed only 3 months home). Recently I bought an ACDC pro. I am happy with it, but mostly for Angus band's songs and the bell. The remainder is as basic as the previous "creations".

It's time to renew the designers and assembly chain.

However, no one is obliged the purchase a Stern

In my other Stern games the plywood consists of layers of what appears to be "solid" wood.

In my modern Stern game the plywood consists of layers that alternate from "solid" wood to layers of weird particle board.

Its mushy, its not regular plywood. It's dilluted or for those of us who bought an 8ball or two in the past, its "cut" with baby laxitive, I mean MDF?

Stern *IS* using different wood. FFS next dude to say the wood is unchanged is a shill or just not using their eyes.

They are not better. It's the same garbage from the pro, all the way up to the cash grab Super Deluxe Limited Edition.

i was in for SW, not sure now, Qc, ghosting...

Don't get me wrong, the game seems to be super fast and smooth, with the promise of an amazing code (if it ever get fully done).

What pisses me off; this is the theme of a lifetime, the greatest license outhere and this is what they come up with, really?
this is got to be the most stripped down pinball ever. the LE/premium looks like a pro and the pro looks like a sizzle (you know what i mean). 2 years for this, c'mon!

If the license cost more, instead of making the buyers pay by increasing the price (again) and stripping as much as possible (like always) why not take the hit stern? for once give back to your loyal customers.
Make an amazing game fully loaded, premium/le that is actually worth the extra money and make this icon (star wars) exactly what it deserves.
they'll get amazing reviews, sale more games (how many have backed out) in the long run, make more money on quantities and go down in history as the greatest pinball theme ever. it amazed me that the marketing don't get this......
Missed opportunity, greed seems to be the way to go at stern and the investors (who had no idea what a pinball was). it will bite them in the ass. wake up stern!

As long as people (who's got to have the latest toy in town) with more money than common sense keep buying nothing will change (because stern is selling), price will go up on every new game, QC won't change and stripping will go on and on.

competition is great and that's why i'm looking more and more at them, man that houdini is looking better and better.

rant off (well, maybe not).

maybe it's different. It's really only the top layer anyone gives a shit about. So if they bought a huge batch with the wrong top layer, that could effect things. Playfields have always been made with different materials. the top layer has always been 1 of 3 types of wood. Curing could be an issue. Speed of growth is a factor as well.
A stradivari violin sounds different than all others, because of the specific forest the wood is harvested from. It's a cold, low light area, that makes the trees grow much slower than others. Making the wood much more compact and dense. This is what gives a Stratavari it's distinct sound.
Same could be true for playfield top layers. For most applications, the top layer harvest wouldn't mean that much if it was a slow crop, or a fast crop. For pinball, it could have subtle differences. I really think dimples will even out, whether they are deep or not. The wood will only compress so much, and then stop compressing. Eventually the ball will hit nearly every area enough to compress the whole field. Higher airball games will show the signs faster and even out faster than less airball games.

Have you tried playing it yet? It's fun. Doesn't mean you'll want to own one, of course, but drop in a Loonie and try it out if you see one on route (if it's like the States, should be plenty of them out there).

On a more positive note

I hope Elvira & Pulp Fiction happen... & are done quite well. Also I hope Stern gets the QC issues figured out & hashes out code nicely. I would rather praise them than "bash" them.

Because in the end, they're my favorite manufacturer. They made LOTR, TSPP, FGY, RBION, AC/DC, TWD, AS, MET & a few other bad ass games I adore.

Love my Sterns, love em. I am dealing with cabinet issues right now as well. Maybe that's why I'm so vocal in this thread? Stern is like a relative or friend that I care about... who smokes crack & steals my money from time to time. You know, they disappoint ya sometimes but they're you're cousin n shit from back in the day you were tight with.

Are these Pulp Fiction rumors legit? That is a killer theme for me and such a an over the plate pitch. Just give me the Uma poster as a translight, stick with the soundtrack and the movie has very obvious scenes that are perfect for modes. Stern it will take a great deal of effort to fuck this up just swing to make contact and put it out of the park.

Here's where I take issue with this statement.... Eventually. Eventually doesn't mean shit. Eventually the Sun is going to turn into a red giant and envelop the Earth. Eventually. Eventually, in both the case of the sun, and the case of the playfield, will not occur in our lifetime.

For one to truly be honest, one must quantify "Eventually". So, I'm not only going to ask a few questions, I'm going to honestly answer them for you, just to save time and electrons. Should you disagree with any of the answers I've provided for you, please explain and provide proof.

.

.

As a professional pinball playfield restorer, are you willing to state that the dimples on recent late model Stern pinball machines will even out after 500 games?

"No."

As a professional pinball playfield restorer, are you willing to state that the dimples on recent late model Stern pinball machines will even out after 1,000 games?

"No."

Mmmmm.

How about 5,000 games?

"No."

Wait, really?!?!?!

I don't understand, this makes no sense. YOU said they will eventually even out. I can't believe that after 5,000 plays, it hasn't evened out.

Ok, I know what to do. I'm going to play the shit out of my $15,000 SUPER LE pinball machine. In fact, I'm going to play it 500 times per week for an entire year. FUCKIN PINBALL ROCKS, MAN!!!!!!

January
February
March
April
Etc.

So, now that I have 25,000+ plays, are you willing to state that the dimples on Stern pinball machines have evened out?

And we both know the answer is simply, no. I have multiple late model Stern games with more or less than 25,000 plays, with a playfield full of craters. And again, my proof is on public display for ANYBODY to verify.

Since the majority of the people reading these forums are collectors, and are concerned with what can happen to THEIR game, I believe the above statement it completely dishonest because based on home use, "Eventually" never happens. The dings, dents, divots, dimples, craters, etc., are there forever.

So to tell any collector that the craters will "eventually" even out, to me, is unreasonable at best.

Love it. You took my words.

Mr. Stern no longer controls Stern and has not done so for nearly 10 years.

His vote is not exclusive nor determines outcomes of directional development including features, construction, or materials of games. This includes licensing as well. Pinball designers are not often a complete voter when it comes to construction, engineering, materials, or the operating system. This is subject to final review, sometimes well above the senior factory manager. Hence, many times the removal of features that were originally designed for games, but removed for cost reasons. There are dozens of beloved titles of the past that could be cited regarding many of these facets that occurred versus what could have been included when the games were developed. If a person's goes back less than 18 years to the beginning of "new" Stern, only a handful of people remember here in these forums. Even Stern themselves who actually do keep documented changes of where things stood, not all remember where the company's direction stated in terms of game development. Many simply moved on, or even retired.

Blaming Gary Stern for Stern's or other pinball problems is like accusing Larry Flynt for the popularity today of online pornography.

Mr. Stern does not often write "the bottom line" now.

Exclusive blame against manufacturers for "cost cutting" attempts to remove the aspect of the lack of knowledge by consumers, results in a faulty conclusion. People need to read this information below and have an opportunity to discover some more pinball history even reflective to Stern directly.

Unknowing and ready acceptance of the reduction of game quality without question along with increases of MSRP for no valid economic reason (just do not try to tell that to the non-believer "pinflation" theorists). This is not the fault of Stern. It will not stop until the market fully peaks, or people stop buying their games for over inflated prices.

This HAS happened before. Both in 1996 and 2006, in the last two decades for a recent comparative analysis. Operators REJECTED manufacturer attempts in 1996 (MSRP rises, beginning of the loss of pinball interest again), hence games became standard to be bought on closeouts, which further hurt the industry overall. Consumers particularly REJECTED this manufacturer attempt starting in 2006 (some MSRP rises especially comparative to the quality of previous games from lack of features and coding, and loss of interest in pinball AGAIN), hence the beginning of attempts to start reconfiguration of production at Stern to begin to prevent overruns, but closeouts did happen, changes occurred in several titles, and some licensed decisions and failed games sales nearly caused Stern to CLOSE in 2009/2010. Yes, they almost did not survive!

Look to the past for evidence, evaluate the present, and predict the future.

Presently, the first change in the entire market has initiated for downshifting, as the latest interest period in pinball is starting to slow down and all those speculation buyers hoarding NIB games in boxes recognize it is time to sell. It is not accelerating. This has nothing to do with pinball enthusiasm, but what consumers can truly afford to pay (comparative to income levels), how much freed income they have to spend on electronic toys, and pinball choices available, which there are MANY.

The cycle will happen again, and the additional signs show based on the nervousness of buyers based on the boondoggle raping of "boutique" manufacturers against buyers (past and present), which has HURT the market. Two manufacturers already failed openly (and truth revealed to those that scoffed) this year, and continue to attempt to state "everything is ok" but propped up by a melting candlestick. Three others are completely unknown. Two of the same three have not sold a single game at all. The rest continue to duke it out for the less than 10% market share scraps that Stern holds over their head with over the entire industry in terms of sales to the general market. Just like what happened starting 1993/1994 more manufacturers will fade out before the end of 2017/2018. By the end of 2018, there will most likely be no more than 4 manufacturers remaining based on market interest and income to buy machines.

Yet, some people literally STILL need to be slapped across the face to see the differences of quality from Stern games made less than 5 years ago, not 10-15 years ago. A person does not need to go that far back, as those games had their own issues. Stern peaked in quality around 2011-2012, at least for the time being. It is extremely disappointing, because it seems obvious, at least to me. Many "old" collectors have decided to take our money elsewhere, at least for the time being, and certainly not because we cannot afford the games (even today), but what is being received for our money. I and others are having a hard time supporting the "new" Stern, especially after 2012, since we helped prop it up in the 2000s and allow them to be successful and "survive" when operators stopped buying pinball, and Stern was never considered equitable to BLY/WMS/GTB. Even Stern knew this, that is why they developed a series of redemption games such as Simpson's Kooky Carnival from old TSPP parts!

It is also very beneficial to understand the differences between quality assurance and quality control, as they are not the same definition in industry production, but incredibly important when determining issues in development and products.

Reference my previous postings in this thread, if required.
Technical laboratory testing results of materials and construction is beyond the scope of this forum, which have been compared in some cases already.

PinFlation.jpg

I'm on a Stern high today for good reason. I brought my SmVe play field to the factory today and got a new one . How long did I wait ? About 4 games they let me play on Star Wars.

You must be really high if you brought your SMVE playfield in for replacement and are happy about it. How long did it last 6 months?

Since it's been brought up a few times: the last instance of pre release testing on location of a new game appears to have been Spider-Man in 2007. http://www.pinballnews.com/games/spiderman/index2.html At least, that was the last time I recall seeing pictures of a test game with red plastics on location before such title was officially announced. I do recall stories of games being tested on location later on as well, after being released, but apparently, nothing was done with the data collected (to much frustration of some of the people involved).

lets see some of those 25k play games. They can't look that bad or any worse than all the clearcoated b/w games that travel through here on a weekly basis.

That's part of my point. You specialize in restoring playfields that are worth restoring. I mean really, how many SW, AS, BM66, GB, GoT, KISS, WWE, TWD, MET, ACDC, do you get to closely examine with such a variety of plays? It's all I do, my friend.

Please understand, I own, or have owned, multiples of almost all of these titles (Except BM66), including pros-LEs, I've VERY closely examined these machines from day 1 NIB, all the way up to 32,000 plays on a IMVE. Look at my collection.... I own 1 Bally. Next closest thing is an MMRLE. But, it's also true that you've never seen me comment on a B/W playfield, ever. I know nothing about them.



.

As I've stated, they are out in the wild for anybody to see, specifically The Big Apple Arcade at NYNY in Las Vegas. You can see a full range of playfields in a 10 pin line-up of late model Stern titles from a 2007 SM through a 2017 SW (with 9 ghosted inserts).

Take a walk next door to Excalibur and there is a ST pro and a GoT pro side by side. Both over 10k plays.

I have 5 more at Fremont Arcade with low mileage (3,500-8,500 plays) you can examine. After lunch, I'll take you over to the PHoF for a real playfield viewing spectacle. While we're there, don't forget to ask Tim his thoughts on the current quality of recent releases. ROFL

I also have an additional 15 pins in my shop with plays numbering from 1 (GBLE replacement playfield) Shameless plug: For Sale. up to an Avatar LE with 20,000 plays on it.

For shits & giggles, you can examine a WOZ with 1,1XX plays, directly next to a WOZ with 11,XXX plays. A near dead-on 10x comparison. Why there's also an MMRLE with 840 plays to include in the playfield comparisons.

.

Of course, I could just take some pictures when I'm there tomorrow morning fixing SM. That would save you on gas.

BTW - Among a variety of other psychological issues, I'm so OCD that it has now taken me nearly an hour to finish writing this ridiculous reply.

Question

I know my cabinet plywood is different than previous plywoods on my older Sterns cabinets. No one could look at the two and deny that fact.

I really do wonder if they're using different plywood on the PF's. It just seems plausible based on current PF issues (ghosting, delaminating art/clear & craters).

Do you guys really think Stern recently switched cabinet wood but not recently switch PF wood.... while recently experiencing PF issues & cabinet issues?

Coincidence?

Truth be told the ghosting was pretty minor.
Actually something I could have lived with.
In fact when I got the box I did nothing for 6 weeks deciding. What caused me to replace was reseller value although I have no plans to sell the pin.

It was a pain but kudos to Stern for doing this.

I mean the playfields very well could act differently. I just don't know how they wouldn't even out over time. Just doesn't seem possible not to. Just with the nature on how dimples and pounding a playfield works. It would have to even out over time. I don't see how it couldn't. Wood can only dent and compress so far and then it stops. No matter what. eventually you compress every area to it's max point, in every little spot. It will be even again. The science behind it says it has to.

Also, i've played WOZ many many times. It's not an airball game. Very seldom do I get airballs on it. Airballs are a huge contributing factor to dimples. Shadow is an airball game. GB is an airball game. Some designs just don't get them because of the way they are laid out. JJP's flippers are a little weaker, so they tend not to airball as much.

I have AC/DC, GB, TF, and LOTR for newer sterns. None of them seem to dimple any worse than shadow, rfm, cv, totan, tom or any of the other b/w i've owned for 6+ years.

Because of this thread, I've looked really closely at my Champion Pub. As you know, this game actually encourages air-balls.

You know what's nuts? There's no dimpling on my playfield. Seriously.

*mind blown*

it's because it's been pounded to shit over the years and evened back out.

No way. I know the difference. I compared between the sheltered parts of the pf versus the wide opened areas.

For what it's worth, in NEO's defense I will say this. My GOT and TWD dimpled really bad and I was playing those two games this morning and I looked at them closely. First of all you do have to look at the "closely" to even see the dimpling so it doesn't even bother me since you have to look for it that close in perfect lighting to see it. I doubt many people will come over and see that and say.....wow your playfields look like cratered up pieces if sh* t. Anyway........my GOT was looking pretty bad when I first got the game, it had some nasty divots on the playfield and now after 1100 plays, it is actually looking pretty damn good. It has like a very fine orange peel look to it and I truly believe that it is on its way to becoming smooth one day.

TWD with 1700 plays doesn't appear to be smoothing out as good or as quickly, but it definitely does look better than it once did. I will check my GB later. It was dimpling bad as well and I have almost 1,000 plays on it now. The bottom line is though, you have to be in perfect lighting and looking for it to see it and it doesn't affect ball travel so I don't really care, and believe me when I tell you this.......I am one picky bastard when it comes to my pinball machines and if it doesn't bother me I cant imagine it bothering anyone. The games are still beautiful to look at and I am very proud of them. I don't know if they will flatten out smoothly or not but they are getting better for sure and they look just fine.

NEO does awesome work and I'm going to give him props and the benefit of the doubt on what he's saying instead of argue with him. The guy knows his sh*t when it comes to playfields, just look at his work and see. I would be very comfortable sending him a playfield of mine to restore because any person who cares about their work like he does and is as passionate about what they do as he is, is going to do a fantastic job on your playfield.

TWD = The Walking Dimple

Guys you are all wrong, nothing has changed except the earth's gravity. Gravity is simply strong today than it was 20 years ago. The force the ball hits the play field at is simply weaker than it used to be due to gravity.

Americans love to bash the best. Everyone hates the Yankees. People love to complain about the president. Pinsiders bash Stern. Until another company can start producing 5-6 commercially viable games per year, stern will continue with the critics. If people don't like them, then don't buy them. Pretty easy. People no buy, Stern improve quality.

Lol for sure!

That is a fact for sure. There are some legitimate gripes though also with Stern. Extreme pinball and others make some valid points as well and there are areas where Stern needs to up their game for sure. Extreme pinball has 3 games I believe that have ghosted inserts and that's either poor quality or some really sh*tty luck he's got with pinball machines. I got to believe it's a quality issue more than bad luck. Whatever the case is it's unacceptable. I still am not going to go as far as saying Stern's games are total shit like alot of people on here act like though.

5-6 games a year

And...

Then.....

Elevator goes up...

Use caution with false beliefs.

I have seen many damaged playfields based on all sorts of type of play, not necessarily neglect, it simply depends on how long you have been involved in the hobby. I used to be responsible for working with dealers for game reimports, so they was a key point of evaluation I performed. Probably many of the games people here own today. I can find more photos in my archives of TZ, if necessary, but I don't think some would want to buy them, and not a single one was water damaged.

BLY/WMS playfields do not have supernatural strength against wear, dimples, dents, or divots.
Anyone that owns a WhiteWater can attest to this fact, whether the VUK, lost mine, or general play.

21740555_10155751209156617_7335572386225033650_n.jpg

to Stern's cost cutting department and...

apparently that owner was a fan of Wildcat playfield cleaner. :/

It is the exception rather than the rule.

I do appreciate a brief post from your normal novel. Now back to polishing your helmet, it ain't going to polish itself.

Every manufacturers cannot get it right 100% of the time. How many times has Toyota had a recall due to cars going up in flames or a chocolate manufacturer that recalls its products due to a contamination issue on a batch etc etc.

I think Stern need to look at the issues raised with regards to quality but every business does.

My bigger gripe with Stern is how the money men have hijacked the company and stifled innovation. Star Wars is a classic example. As already mentioned, I'm a huge pinhead + Love Star Wars but cannot buy the game. Steve Ritchie is a great designer but I think his hands were tied here.

People will eventually vote with their feet and not buy or buy elsewhere. Whats needed is more competition so hopefully JJP will keep pushing forward and force Stern to do likewise.

Here is another example, a little later, and I chose a different game, but still the same application method and materials for the clear coat.
There are problems even within individual playfield runs.
They rarely affect just an individual game within the run.
No game is "immune" to issues.

I don't know how many historical photos I have archived are required for someone to actually begin recognize how playfields behave under various conditions of play and environmental conditions.

People that feel threatened when they see or read something means they are part of the problem versus being part of the solution.
Being envious of knowledge is not an excuse for ignorance in this world.
It is also rare that the same people contribute anything purposeful for assisting others in a specific area of interest.

I only speak out of experience and personal observation, not conjecture.
This is not a lecture, just an explanation.
I have found the farther we move away from the earlier periods of both EM and SS electronic, the more knowledge is being lost.

Up until less than a year ago, I still kept hearing how "wonderful" the SPIKE operating system was for new owners, yet they did not have an idea how it worked, and still do not, because the schematics remain unavailable. A person ended up having to backwards engineering everything to figure out problems, if feasible, as the system diagnosis sometimes was useless. Operators detested it from the first application title game. This good idea fairy did not come from home users, operators, or distributors.

19990463_10155561368686617_793318449003677224_n.jpg

Um...is anybody else seeing a wiener on that playfield, or is that my latent homosexuality rearing its ugly head?

As soon as I seen the pic that was the first thing that came to my mind! Lmao