Oh no...I made a cargument. I'm so sorry.

No. You're still trying to treat dimples as craters, when the words being utilized is proof there is a difference. One instance of a crater is worth many instances of dimples. A dimple alters the playfield a small amount each time. A crater alters a playfield a large amount each time. If you are dimpling, you will never match that which is caratering. You're basically arguing that a small one can affect the same as a large one by simply doing it more, but that ignores the fact that doing it more can be done independently of it being small or large. You're just saying "oh, yeah, well dimples can F it up cuz they happen a lot more," but you could simply crater all the time, if you could crater.

yes they weren't much better, they were a LOT better.

my 2cents.

there is no such thing as crater to begin with. Made up pinside shit. Big dimples and little dimples is what it comes down to. A big dimple is the same fawking thing as a little dimple. If a playfield allows bigger dimples for whatever reason. The effects will be the same. Instead of a million little dimples eventually evening out the playfield, you have a million big dimples eventually evening out the playfield. Eventually it will be hammer flat again. whether or not they are big or small.

At this point, you may as well start trying the "motion in the ocean" argument.

You're wrong. Flat out wrong. You know nothing about playfields and no one should ever trust you with quality restorations when you're so ignorant of the very thing you claim to specialize in. Not sure why it's taken a decade to do this, but it's time to throw you on my ignore list with the other useless voices who contribute nothing of value to the hobby. Farewell forever, Neo!

you make absolutely no sense. If you think this shit won't flatten out over the years, you have not been in the hobby back in the early 90's when clearcoating with airball games became normal. The shit looked the same back then as the new shit does now.

I was on the fence and pulled the trigger. I added a Star Wars Premium and I'm impressed with it. New brackets, metal ramps, and pretty great right out of the box.

Only complaint is I need to figure out the rules as there is so much in this pin.

Overall, I was worried about this one. Still worried about ghosting etc.., but since the game is fun, it's going to get a workout. Today I'm glad I didn't cancel.

I wish Stern would just communicate better.

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My guess is that the craters will not completely flatten out over time, especially in a home environment because they are probably caused by a combination of a softer than normal playfield and harder than normal ball impacts.

I wouldn't expect those types of impacts to occur often enough and in the same relative locations to fully blend the craters in with the rest of the normal dimples.

play more then.

I have 5 HUO/NIB Sterns right now.

They all have a similar number of plays.

Some games dimple more than others.

I don't for a second believe all plywood is created the same.

For one thing I can clearly see a difference in the cabinet plywood of my Aerosmith vs all other Sterns.

New games have more/larger layers of really mushy particleboard.

My older Stern cabinets, like say 2008, are made from a very different type of plywood.

Might be one of the reasons games are lighter & splitting now too?

Maybe, just maybe, if Stern is using a different quality of plywood on the cabinet they are also using different quality plywood for the PF?

It was said on another site that Stern was/maybe getting its wood from Asia now. Not sure how true that is? But it has changed from looking at my old Sterns to what GB has.

All plywood is definitely not the same. There are different grades ranging from A, the highest, and down. There are also different types of plywood such as soft plywood, hard plywood, marine plywood, airplane plywood. And depending on the resins used and fibers they can definitely range within grades too.

Agreed.

I am sure the rep from Stern walks into the lumberyard and announces, "Give me 10,000 sheets of your cheapest/shittiest plywood".

Plus:

All clearcoat is definitely not the same. They come in a variety of hardness. And they're applied in one, or many, coats resulting in different levels of hardness, thickness and durability.

And now you're really on to something.

Agreed. Tons of variables for sure. I think we can agree one or more variables have changed since say early to mid 2016.

Is their possible benefits to sterns clear coats/woods that we haven't seen yet? Like would their new processes be protecting planking/wear which would be a long term benefit or is it just they are cutting costs?

no, dimples/dents are only from the wood. The clear moves with the wood.

Ding...Ding...Ding. Cheaper plywood gets dried less, has more moisture. I read that 70 percent of the mill's energy cost is used for drying and curing the wood. But let's keep repeating the "steel is harder than wood" idiom.

With all due respect regarding your profession in the industry, please don't insult me. We are not talking about 90's pins.

Proof: Drop a plastic ball on a freshly clearcoated plate of steel. Then take a picture of the dent in the clearcoat. Show it to yourself.

When Stern's clearcoat is of poor quality, is not hard enough, and/or applied too thickly, it will spread out under impact and "crater". This is what is causing the massive craters on newer Sterns, in my opinion.

These craters are NOT what used to be considered dimples.

I trust that you can objectively identify the difference.

This thread has cratered!

Lowest bidder is standard in the industries; however, companies declare standards prior to accepting companies' as potential lowest bidders.

Also, to reiterate someone else, clear coats are malleable. Typically, clear coats are stepped down from that which they protect, to ensure the coat is damaged rather than what the coat protects. An example is in automobiles, whereby a chassis is designed to fail a certain way, to protect the passengers inside. If the wood fails prior to the clear coat, then the clear coat is not doing its job. The wood being cheap quality is a different matter.

I examined my dimples closely tonight. They are all on the wood, none over the inserts.

Ergo, it's the wood not the clear.

And which would you rather?

Lol, it's probably Gary that does that.........he is a cheap B@stard you know! I bet he's buying that wood from China probably.

Perhaps this less than dry wood is the cause of ghosting inserts?

The ghosting happens without game play so perhaps ghosting is an artifact of the wood curing in the field instead of the mill?

I'd suspect it goes more like "Give me 10,000 sheets of plywood and I have $40,000 to pay for it".

you don't want your clear super hard anyway. Stiff clear, doesn't flex with the ball and the dimples. Stays stiff and pops off the surface. You want it to have a little give to flex with the playfield.

Does the front of your car have dimples in the clear? Nope. It chips out from rocks. if it dimpled in the clear, you would have dimples all over the damn place on the front of your car.

Well I don't know, but you may have accidentally stumbled on the reason for the ghosting issues..Lol. I can tell you for sure Stern hasn't figured it out yet. I'm guessing but I think they're using cheaper grade plywood and the wood is softer or not cured as long as our older games. As I mentioned in the earlier post the drying process impacts the price of the wood greatly. It doesn't take a genius to figure out if they cheapened the backbox, PCBs, cabinets, lockdowns, service rails, decals and power button that they sourced cheap plywood too.

Bashing? No.
Honest criticism? Hell yes.

the most prized posession of a guitar maker is his wood. More expensive guitars will be made of wood which has been stored for 20 and more years. You would think a pinball maker would also prize the wood he uses - especially in the playfield which is the most important part of a pinball table. I find the thought that poorly selected, treated and aged wood is causing some of the frustration described in these pages rather upsetting.

Wood shrinks when drying.

I remember when we had our deck built the contractor said if we used wood + metal railing rods the rods could eventually rattle as the wood shrank.

Also the wood, especially parts heavily exposed to the sun, "checks" aka cracks as it dries.

Less than dry wood, pun intended, *would* certainly make an insert pop loose no? I mean if the wood is contracting the insert is no longer holding on.

I know, I know, nothing has changed, been doing it this way for years, steel vs wood, ghosting is normal.

Ya, riiiiiiiiight. Ok

This is definitely an interesting thread. I find it fascinating that as a general comment about the current human condition that there are lots of folks making everything up from the sidelines without any science (full disclosure, I am one of those people who doesn’t know much about wood and playfields), but we do have an experienced restorer who’s probably worked on more playfields than most of us combined and most folks are ignoring any evidence he brings to the thread.

It’s just fascinating.

You wonder if Stern bought a bad batch of crappy plywood or maybe switch companies that handled playfields? Whoever is doing Spookies and JJP's playfields are doing it right because they are beautiful.

This thread is hilariously funny but frustrating at the same time. Its like a political discussion, no one is going to budge on their opinion. BTW does anyone even use NEO for PF restoration anymore? I used him twice and both times they were so bad I sold the PFs because I wouldn't want them in my game.

Yikes. No personal experience, but Neo's work looks good over here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/a-playfield-restoration-step-by-step-walk-through

if that's true, you didn't say shit to me, because I would have taken them back and fixed whatever you didn't like.

Lol

On a serious note something has changed

Don't tell me it hasn't

Find me OLD threads on Pinside where splitting cabinets & ghosted inserts were the norm

Ya can't

Why?

Because something has changed

Oh shit! Maybe it's the pinballs! Maybe the pinballs are heavier & denser! Maybe the pinballs are to blame instead of QC & cost cutting.

Eureka!

I still love me some Stern pinball but I'm taking a break from them for a bit. AFMr looks quite legit & it should scratch my pinball itch until Stern starts making slot machines or fixes their QC/code.

For the ghosting. People are blaming the clear, blaming the wood.

It very well could be the plastic on the inserts. Depending on the plastic they used and how freshly made they were. The plastic could be still outgassing. Put a fresh plastic insert in a wooden field. Then reopen it up again with the plaining process. then screen it and clear it. It could still be going through an outgassing process, which would create gas pockets under the clear, which gives you the ghosting. Or the glue they are now using has a long gassing process to cure. So many factors could cause this, would be very difficult to pinpoint. Especially if they changed many things all at once. Like new playfield supplier, new glue, new inserts, new cad machine, new clear, new ink.

^^^^^

The inserts cause craters & chipping clear?

Nah, you just want to remain in "shitty wood denial" IMO

Nothing personal dude, this ain't you vs me. I just don't think you're an authority on this shit. Neither am I of course.

This subject simply isn't important enough to me to continue. So I'm going to concede this point to you and move on with my life, with a few comments. Your analogies have failed. Your analogy would suggest that the clear on the hood of a car is different from the clear on the side of a car. Both have been impacted, yet only the hood is chipped.

Why you are wrong again:

Rocks have edges and corners which chips the paint. Pinballs, to my experience, do not. Additionally, I trust you've seen a car with dings or dents, or god forbid "dimples" on the side of the doors from years of hits..... yet the clear is still intact.

It's the same fucking clear on the hood, as on the door!!!

However, I agreed to concede, and I do. In the case of Stern's defective playfields, it's the wood, not the clear.

Now explain how to restore a playfield made of balsa.

Why do you refuse to except the fact that they are using sub par plywood because Gawy is a cheap bastard? Geez o Pete it's obvious that their quality has gone down hill for years. It took me one seminar years ago to realize that Gawy didn't give two shits about his customers or the quality of his product. " Well once a new pin come out we don't waste time or resources on the previous one".

i was talking about the ghosting issue. not about dimpling as I don't concern myself with that, as it will even itself out over time. Clear chipping, depending on where it is, can be expected if it's on a edge or angle that gets bashed all the time, but should take time. Clear could be too stiff and brittle. Maybe they stopped useing flex in the clear, which would allow the clear to take hits better and contour to the movement of the wood.

This thread is starting to remind me of this clip from office space.

Interesting points, I understand both sides, Just can't justify the CA$H on a nib pin going in expecting problems. So many good natured hobby goers doing there best to keep pinball alive it's hard to look the other way at Stern cutting quality like they are, it's disrespectful to it's loyal customer base.
I wonder if the pro models are built better then the LE's as only pro's will be bought and operated on location?

Again, Gawy doesn't care.

lol no

Yep, there used to be 10 stern apologists shouting you down if you spoke ill of Stern's quality or cost cutting, and it's understandable because people have a lot of money invested in their games. But now the tides have turned, we're sick of it man...sick of it. So a lot of collectors have stopped buying. The LE version of the biggest theme in the universe still available at my local dealer for a reason. Just STOP BUYING THE GAMES! They've already proved they don't give a crap about us whining on Pinside. The only defense we have is to put our money where our mouths are. I've bought $12K worth of Bally/Williams this year alone. I don't have ghosting on any of them