(Topic ID: 197082)

Stern Bashing. Justified?


By erak

2 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 806 posts
  • 142 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by CaptainNeo
  • Topic is favorited by 16 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

No games have been linked to this topic.

    Topic Gallery

    There have been 65 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

    Screenshot_20171010-005748 (resized).png
    21192074_10154568550177924_235036763317045450_n (resized).jpg
    IMG_1333 (resized).JPG
    IMG_2519 (resized).JPG
    IMG_2517 (resized).JPG
    IMG_2515 (resized).JPG
    IMG_2514 (resized).JPG
    IMG_2511 (resized).JPG
    IMAG0710 (resized).jpg
    IMAG0705 (resized).jpg
    IMAG0704 (resized).jpg
    hanghost (resized).jpg
    image (resized).jpg
    image (resized).jpg
    stern-WTF- (resized).jpg
    fly in ointment.jpg

    There are 806 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 17.
    #301 2 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    Do you have any pics left over from what you sent Stern? Can you post them here?

    That was like 18 phones ago. The one thing I crack more than shooter lanes is iPhone screens. There were pieces of the shooter lane missing. I remember that. It was on both sides too. And chunks of clear gone too.

    -3
    #302 2 years ago
    Quoted from MinusWorlds:

    That was like 18 phones ago. The one thing I crack more than shooter lanes is iPhone screens. There were pieces of the shooter lane missing. I remember that. It was on both sides too. And chunks of clear gone too.

    Could you not have just bought a new pf? I understand you shouldn't have to but if the on in your game was falling apart you needed to do something.

    #303 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Didn't bally try plastic playfields in the 1970s? I believe they did on a few select Rolling Stones. The experiment was a failure as posts kept stripping out.
    Remember folks, "innovation" in pinball usually sucks.

    sure did. SPeakeasy was one of the games that had them, as well as cybernaut.

    #304 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    sure did. SPeakeasy was one of the games that had them, as well as cybernaut.

    Oooooo I like speakeasy.

    #305 2 years ago
    Quoted from MinusWorlds:

    That was like 18 phones ago. The one thing I crack more than shooter lanes is iPhone screens. There were pieces of the shooter lane missing. I remember that. It was on both sides too. And chunks of clear gone too.

    Man, that sucks, sorry for your troubles. How much does a translite cost them....20 bucks? To keep an 8000 Dollars customer happy (sigh).

    PS: I like your email address in the posts

    #306 2 years ago

    I took some additional pics of my playfield from another angle to show the dimpling.
    I want to stress that I'm not the least bit concerned about this, nor do I consider it a defect.

    I consider it telling me to play more so I can even it out. You will notice how much more uniform the bottom part is compared to the top.

    Also an extra photo to show how the dimples disappear; you can only see them from the right angle and lighting.

    IMG_4437.jpg

    IMG_4438.jpg

    IMG_4439.jpg

    IMG_4436.jpg

    #307 2 years ago
    Quoted from zaphX:

    I took some additional pics of my playfield from another angle to show the dimpling.
    I want to stress that I'm not the least bit concerned about this, nor do I consider it a defect.
    I consider it telling me to play more so I can even it out. You will notice how much more uniform the bottom part is compared to the top.
    Also an extra photo to show how the dimples disappear; you can only see them from the right angle and lighting.

    Save your breath. Trolls are trollls.

    #308 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    sure did. SPeakeasy was one of the games that had them, as well as cybernaut.

    A couple more history footnotes to help others.

    One of the more famous examples of "alternative playfield materials" was EBD as shown in this photo of early production model #1007.
    As you can see below, that attempt at innovation failed as not only did the plastic warp, they were still prone to wear due to insert problems of expansion and contraction rates, which is why a "pinball overlay protector" is more effective, if made durable enough to prevent scratching over time with "less than perfect balls". Dents, dimples, and divots (AKA "cratering" as some people here are stating which is not industry used term) however still occur.
    The production was stopped almost immediately using these plastic playfields, although repeatedly attempted later again with other titles.

    I used to have a full list of games that used these types of playfields (without conducting additional research again) but they were most prevalent during the late 1970s and early 80s at the birth of the SS era. BLY/WMS/GTB would do a few upfront with regular wood playfield games and simultaneously test them at various locations.

    There is another key subject and reflective not only of quality of construction, but control as well.

    Unfortunately, Stern game testing on location prior to release is something does not do very well and many times today at all (unless you count a few weeks of trade shows), as there is a preference to generate marketing hype for pre order sales (AKA added profit).
    In the last couple of years particularly, it has continued to be minimized.

    This is another example of loss to the industry and important beneficial requirement to consumers, and not an improvement.
    If anything, this observation would be considered a "bash".
    Other manufacturers such as JJP are actually still doing this type of testing (while generating interest as in the past) which results in a higher quality product overall. You can do all the engineering testing you want under controlled laboratory conditions, but it does not change the reality of location tests and the REQUEST FEEDBACK provided by potential customers on site.
    What a novel concept!

    I will leave this posting with quote, that has significant value even today.
    "You cannot determine issues, if you do not place games in the environment to which they are operated."
    - William T. O'Donnell (Former CEO, Bally Manufacturing Corporation)

    If you do not know who he is and what he did, his importance was paramount to the survival and success of not only Bally, but the entire coin operated industry. He was highly respected.

    image-26.jpg

    #309 2 years ago
    Quoted from MinusWorlds:

    The fucking shooter lane was splintering. I'm not talking about just cracked clear...
    Message received, it was my fault.

    sounds normal Sorry that Stern led you on and then screwed you over. Don't give up the fight for another playfield and promised translite.

    #310 2 years ago
    Quoted from zaphX:

    I took some additional pics of my playfield from another angle to show the dimpling.
    I want to stress that I'm not the least bit concerned about this, nor do I consider it a defect.
    I consider it telling me to play more so I can even it out. You will notice how much more uniform the bottom part is compared to the top.
    Also an extra photo to show how the dimples disappear; you can only see them from the right angle and lighting.

    Id be more concerned with all those ghosted inserts you have already, looks like at least 3 in pictures. Contact your distributor with pictures of each ghosted insert for documentation purposes so if they get worse you can try and get a playfield replacement.

    12
    #311 2 years ago

    This cost cutting measure really pisses me off..Eliminating the bracket under the playfield with these two sticks for lack of a better word..is just, INSANE.

    stern1 (resized).jpeg
    2 (resized).jpeg

    #312 2 years ago
    Quoted from Phbooms:

    Id be more concerned with all those ghosted inserts you have already, looks like at least 3 in pictures. Contact your distributor with pictures of each ghosted insert for documentation purposes so if they get worse you can try and get a playfield replacement.

    Lol, none of them are ghosted.

    #313 2 years ago
    Quoted from zaphX:

    Lol, none of them are ghosted.

    No sorry im pretty sure theres ghosted inserts in your pictures. See that white looking stuff at bottom of your rectangular endor insert, thats what looks like ghosting. Also your hotdog shaped Destroy the Deathstar left corner and Endor hotdog bottom edge insert possibly but those are harder to tell with picture angles and overhead lighting.

    -1
    #314 2 years ago
    Quoted from Phbooms:

    No sorry theres ghosted inserts in your pictures. See that white looking stuff at bottom of your rectangular endor insert, thats ghosting. Also your hotdog shaped Destroy the Deathstar and Endor hotdog insert possibly but those are harder to tell with picture angles and overhead lighting.

    You can clearly see those inserts are fine in the other angle pics.

    Even if it were true, I honestly don’t care. Life is too short to obsess about things like this.

    #315 2 years ago
    Quoted from zaphX:

    Even if it were true, I honestly don’t care. Life is too short to obsess about things like this.

    Then Pinside is not for you.

    Anyway, welcome! Not everyone here is an anal-retentive nutjob.

    #316 2 years ago

    I posted these in another thread as an example of lumpy cratering. This is a TWD LE on route - so - if lots of play smooths dimples, this game should be super smooth, right? Nah, it looks like lumpy clay. And before anyone says it's a lighting trick, I've played lots of different TWDs on location & most have nice smooth glassy surfaces. So - I'm not saying this happens to all games....but it does to some, and when it does, don't tell people it's "normal", because it's not.

    IMG_0191.JPG
    IMG_0185.JPG
    IMG_0189.JPG
    IMG_0192.JPG

    #317 2 years ago

    Wood is a living organism; how much of this is variation that’s natural in wood and hardness from board to board?

    #318 2 years ago
    Quoted from pintechev:

    Wood is a living organism; how much of this is variation that’s natural in wood and hardness from board to board?

    That's probably it, but they should have figured out by now which suppliers or which types of wood lead to mushy playfields vs. awesome playfields....and only use the good stuff.

    #319 2 years ago

    I'm thinking more like: what does it matter?
    If it affects ball travel, then it matters to me.
    If it means that the clear is going to start chipping, then it matters to me.
    If it just means that you'll see some dimples at a certain angle, with the proper lighting, then it doesn't matter to me.

    Unless there's more to it that I don't know about?

    I'm assuming that this is caused by thicker clear coat.

    #320 2 years ago

    Do craters slow down the ball b/c the playfield is not super smooth?

    #321 2 years ago
    Quoted from zaphX:

    You can clearly see those inserts are fine in the other angle pics.
    Even if it were true, I honestly don’t care. Life is too short to obsess about things like this.

    You got the right attitude there.

    #322 2 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    You got the right attitude there.

    Did you replace your GBLE playfield? I sure as heck did. My ghosting progressed to cracking and chipping on the inserts. This early in the game, I would be worried about multiple inserts ghosting. Stern would probably agree as well.

    #323 2 years ago
    Quoted from zaphX:

    I honestly don’t care.

    I'd only care if an educated consumer passes on buying my machine because it's cratered, and buys yours instead because it's (normally) dimpled.

    I'd by my buddy's dimpled Walking Dead LE over the cratered one illustrated in Rarehero's photos.

    When compared side by side, don't tell me you'd buy the abnormally cratered machine instead. Nobody would.

    But yeah, it's not important because it's just pinball.

    #324 2 years ago

    I'm in the there is a difference between a dimple and a crater. I had my original run AC/DC open last night and I took a close look at the playfield. Yes it has a some very mild dimpling. You have to hit with the right light and yes you can see dimpling. This seems completely normal and has no impact on how the game looks or the game plays.

    A couple weeks back I checked out a Star Wars Pro on location. It had craters in the playfield, deep and visible in any light at any distance. They clearly would affect the balls path and looked terrible. While I was playing it the ball got hung up on the drops as they reset, it launched the ball straight up into the glass and slammed it back down into the playfield. This was very loud and left a serious divot in the playfield. I think in the Premium and LE the Hyperloop would stop this from happening. If you have a Pro I would mod it to put a cover over the drop targets because it does not dimple the playfield, it damages it.

    #325 2 years ago
    Quoted from Chambahz:

    I'm thinking more like: what does it matter?
    If it affects ball travel, then it matters to me.
    If it means that the clear is going to start chipping, then it matters to me.
    If it just means that you'll see some dimples at a certain angle, with the proper lighting, then it doesn't matter to me.
    Unless there's more to it that I don't know about?
    I'm assuming that this is caused by thicker clear coat.

    Of course it matters....we know the same game within the same run can have awesome or shit playfields...after spending $5000-$8000, don't you think you deserve the awesome one? My first NIB Stern, a *CLEARANCE* Wheel of Fortune for $2400, had the most perfect glassy playfield I'd ever seen, and didn't dimple/crater at all. So, knowing that it's possible to have a good one, OF COURSE it matters and you should want the good one!

    I remember playing my friend's clay-cratered STLE and you could "feel" it...you could feel the ball rolling on the lumps. It absolutely affects gameplay when it's that bad. Again, this isn't "look at it in a certain light and you can see it" stuff...all of my "good" games, yes - you can see the dimples if you turn on the ceiling lights and look at certain angles...but they look glassy and smooth under normal conditions...maybe visible dimple here or there...but not these massive pock-mark type ones. There is a difference.

    #326 2 years ago
    Quoted from HarryReimer:

    This cost cutting measure really pisses me off..Eliminating the bracket under the playfield with these two sticks for lack of a better word..is just, INSANE.

    Yeah that's crazy annoying, back to the old DE days.

    #327 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    Of course it matters....we know the same game within the same run can have awesome or shit playfields...after spending $5000-$8000, don't you think you deserve the awesome one? My first NIB Stern, a *CLEARANCE* Wheel of Fortune for $2400, had the most perfect glassy playfield I'd ever seen, and didn't dimple/crater at all. So, knowing that it's possible to have a good one, OF COURSE it matters and you should want the good one!
    I remember playing my friend's clay-cratered STLE and you could "feel" it...you could feel the ball rolling on the lumps. It absolutely affects gameplay when it's that bad. Again, this isn't "look at it in a certain light and you can see it" stuff...all of my "good" games, yes - you can see the dimples if you turn on the ceiling lights and look at certain angles...but they look glassy and smooth under normal conditions...maybe visible dimple here or there...but not these massive pock-mark type ones. There is a difference.

    WOF doesn't airball that much. ST does. The more airballs, the faster it will dimple and faster it will even itself out.

    #328 2 years ago
    Quoted from jar155:

    Did you replace your GBLE playfield? I sure as heck did. My ghosting progressed to cracking and chipping on the inserts. This early in the game, I would be worried about multiple inserts ghosting. Stern would probably agree as well.

    I keep playing it. Have the tiny inserts with minor ghosting and a little clear chipping in the outhole. Nothing has changed but I'm watching it to make sure it doesn't disintegrate totally.

    I'm on the "list" but I'd rather wait at this point and see what happens down the road.

    #329 2 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    I keep playing it. Have the tiny inserts with minor ghosting and a little clear chipping in the outhole. Nothing has changed but I'm watching it to make sure it doesn't disintegrate totally.
    I'm on the "list" but I'd rather wait at this point and see what happens down the road.

    The later it gets replaced, the better.

    #330 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    WOF doesn't airball that much. ST does. The more airballs, the faster it will dimple and faster it will even itself out.

    You always conveniently ignore the facts and evidence presented.

    Once again I speak to the brick wall:

    NORMAL DIMPLES even out!!!!
    CRATERED LUMPS DO NOT!!!!!!

    These are two different issues. Lumps NEVER even out EVER.

    -5
    #331 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    You always conveniently ignore the facts and evidence presented.
    Once again I speak to the brick wall:
    NORMAL DIMPLES even out!!!!
    CRATERED LUMPS DO NOT!!!!!!
    These are two different issues. Lumps NEVER even out EVER.

    you ignore the fact that every B/W is dimpled to living shit. Every single one that has come through my doors doesn't look any different than anything else. Give it 20 years, and see if you still bitch.

    #332 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    NORMAL DIMPLES even out!!!!
    CRATERED LUMPS DO NOT!!!!!!

    my-lumps-my-59b057 (resized).jpg

    #333 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    you ignore the fact that every B/W is dimpled to living shit. Every single one that has come through my doors doesn't look any different than anything else. Give it 20 years, and see if you still bitch.

    You did it again.

    Dimples are dimples.
    Craters are craters.

    Different issues. Stop LUMPING them together.

    -4
    #334 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    You did it again.
    Dimples are dimples.
    Craters are craters.
    Different issues. Stop LUMPING them together.

    ok, if something makes a crater. tons of craters will do the exact same thing as tons of dimples. Smashing it all down is the same, whether it's smaller or deeper. Eventually it will even out. Has to. Softer wood. Doesn't matter. It will even out. It can only compress so far, then it's done. Period.

    #335 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    You did it again.
    Dimples are dimples.
    Craters are craters.
    Different issues. Stop LUMPING them together.

    Dude, I never thought we would have anything in common but arguing this is like you and I arguing about politics. We are NOT going to agree. You know what PT Barnum said or at least what they say he said.

    #336 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    ok, if something makes a crater. tons of craters will do the exact same thing as tons of dimples. Smashing it all down is the same, whether it's smaller or deeper. Eventually it will even out. Has to. Softer wood. Doesn't matter. It will even out. It can only compress so far, then it's done. Period.

    No, all the ink will eventually start flaking off and the PF will start coming apart.

    #337 2 years ago
    Quoted from zr11990:

    No, all the ink will eventually start flaking off and the PF will start coming apart.

    if that was even possible from dimples/craters, I would have seen it before. Completely ridiculous.

    #338 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Didn't bally try plastic playfields in the 1970s? I believe they did on a few select Rolling Stones. The experiment was a failure as posts kept stripping out.
    Remember folks, "innovation" in pinball usually sucks.

    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    sure did. SPeakeasy was one of the games that had them, as well as cybernaut.

    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    As you can see below, that attempt at innovation failed as not only did the plastic warp, they were still prone to wear due to insert problems of expansion and contraction rates

    I own a Harlem Globetrotters with a plastic playfield. It is simply stunning. It is still flat as glass, and is in amazing shape. I would say it is in the best shape of any classic playfield I have ever seen (and I have seen a LOT of classic games). I wish they had kept at that experiment.

    #339 2 years ago
    Quoted from zr11990:

    You know what PT Barnum said or at least what they say he said.

    Step right up?

    -4
    #340 2 years ago

    Stern makes the best new pins!!! They have the best designs and themes. They produce at least 3 machines a year so you don't have to wait forever for new pin. I have very few quality issues. The old ones were not much better. Just my 2 cents.

    #341 2 years ago
    Quoted from calprog:

    Stern makes the best new pins!!!

    Agree

    Quoted from calprog:

    They have the best designs and themes.

    Themes, yes. Designs... well they are getting generic.

    Quoted from calprog:

    I have very few quality issues.

    But can you acknowledge that others are having pretty big quality issues?

    Quoted from calprog:

    The old ones were not much better.

    It was a different world. It used to be operators, and an operator never cared a whit about a ghosted insert, or even a busted up shooter lane or trough entry. All they cared about were quarters going into the coin slot. It was a money earning machine, not a work of art. Any games that went into homes were sold to the rich people that rarely played them, and when they didn't work, they called an operator that did service calls.

    #342 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    if that was even possible from dimples/craters, I would have seen it before. Completely ridiculous.

    That really isn't a valid argument. Both dimples and craters are due to the balls. The difference between dimples and craters are first and foremost the diameter of the defect created. Due to the balls being spherical, the diameter of the defect is directly related to the depth of the defect. A crater gets closer to the paint/wood than a dimple does.

    #343 2 years ago
    Quoted from Jeremy8419:

    That really isn't a valid argument. Both dimples and craters are due to the balls. The difference between dimples and craters are first and foremost the diameter of the defect created. Due to the balls being spherical, the diameter of the defect is directly related to the depth of the defect. A crater gets closer to the paint/wood than a dimple does.

    nope. the clear moves with it. It's not like dimples are pushing the clear aside. Dimples and dents are caused from the top layer of the plywood, being compressed. If it's a harder hit, it will compress a little deeper than a dimple. Buttttttt. it can only compress so much, and then it will cease to compress. Once it hits it's "bottom out" level, it will no longer compress or dent. So if you get a dimple or crater. Get enough of them, and they even each other out.

    #344 2 years ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    nope. the clear moves with it. It's not like dimples are pushing the clear aside. Dimples and dents are caused from the top layer of the plywood, being compressed. If it's a harder hit, it will compress a little deeper than a dimple. Buttttttt. it can only compress so much, and then it will cease to compress. Once it hits it's "bottom out" level, it will no longer compress or dent. So if you get a dimple or crater. Get enough of them, and they even each other out.

    That didn't even counter my argument. You're basically trying to disregard girth as a precursor to depth for some reason. Even your post suggests such. "If you bottom out, girth doesn't matter.".

    #345 2 years ago

    I posted those pics to make people feel better_ about buying a Stern pin.

    I'm sorry.

    #346 2 years ago
    Quoted from Phbooms:

    No sorry im pretty sure theres ghosted inserts in your pictures. See that white looking stuff at bottom of your rectangular endor insert, thats what looks like ghosting. Also your hotdog shaped Destroy the Deathstar left corner and Endor hotdog bottom edge insert possibly but those are harder to tell with picture angles and overhead lighting.

    I took a closer look and you *might* be right about the Endor one. It's a very tiny sliver and it's parallel to the edge so it's hard to tell.

    Anyway I'm certainly not going to freak out and start planning an RMA.

    Buying this pin was an experiment - I've never had one, and wanted to see what it's like. As long as the experience remains positive, it stays. As soon as it becomes a source of negativity and upset, it goes.

    So far it's been a lot of fun.

    #347 2 years ago
    Quoted from zaphX:

    I took a closer look and you *might* be right about the Endor one. It's a very tiny sliver and it's parallel to the edge so it's hard to tell.
    Anyway I'm certainly not going to freak out and start planning an RMA.
    Buying this pin was an experiment - I've never had one, and wanted to see what it's like. As long as the experience remains positive, it stays. As soon as it becomes a source of negativity and upset, it goes.
    So far it's been a lot of fun.

    They're just trying to upset you.

    #348 2 years ago
    Quoted from Jeremy8419:

    They're just trying to upset you.

    I didn't really read any malice into it.

    I'd like the thing to remain perfect and beautiful too, but that isn't going to happen with a metal ball bashing around inside.

    There's a similar subculture in the sportscar world; you can either keep it in the garage, or you can drive it and accept the wear/flaws that occur.

    I drive my car.

    #349 2 years ago
    Quoted from zaphX:

    I didn't really read any malice into it.
    I'd like the thing to remain perfect and beautiful too, but that isn't going to happen with a metal ball bashing around inside.
    There's a similar subculture in the sportscar world; you can either keep it in the garage, or you can drive it and accept the wear/flaws that occur.
    I drive my car.

    That's what cars are for.

    -1
    #350 2 years ago
    Quoted from Jeremy8419:

    That didn't even counter my argument. You're basically trying to disregard girth as a precursor to depth for some reason. Even your post suggests such. "If you bottom out, girth doesn't matter.".

    that doesn't even make sense. All dents, dimples and craters bottom out eventually. Regardless on how fast they do it per hit.

    Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
    $ 48.00
    Cabinet - Other
    ModFather Pinball Mods
    $ 80.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Latenight Weeknight Mods
    $ 84.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    $ 79.00
    $ 25.00
    $ 7,599.00
    Pinball Machine
    Operation Pinball
    From: $ 50.00
    Gameroom - Decorations
    Pinball Art Prints
    $ 15.00
    Lighting - Led
    3D MODS
    $ 12.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Meph's Mods
    $ 66.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    $ 89.99
    $ 29.99
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    Full Tilt Pinball LEDs
    $ 35.00
    $ 12.00
    Playfield - Other
    Slap Save Creations
    From: $ 5,799.00
    Pinball Machine
    Music City Pinball
    $ 7.65
    Cabinet Parts
    Third Coast Pinball
    $ 84.95
    Cabinet - Shooter Rods
    Super Skill Shot Shop
    $ 89.99
    Lighting - Led
    Lighted Pinball Mods
    $ 104.00
    Boards
    nvram.weebly.com
    € 3.95
    Flipper Parts
    Multigame
    $ 20.00
    Electronics
    Yorktown Parts and Equip
    $ 6,995.00
    Pinball Machine
    Operation Pinball
    $ 5.00
    Playfield - Decals
    Doc's Pinball Shop
    $ 34.00
    Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
    The MOD Couple
    There are 806 posts in this topic. You are on page 7 of 17.

    Hey there! Got a moment?

    Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside