Thousands of lessor quality games, your right.

Some mods add value. PDI glass. Color DMD. Eli ramp mode on Tron. Some toppers. Etc.

Sorry but you can't justify a $9k pin purchase based on quality. I get the effort though

You cant, I can.

I agree with that. Hopefully a zero sum game

Whatever floats your boat. Our Woz and your TH prove my point.

See how much value you have now post Nib

"Well I'm planning on keeping them forever"

That's great and I'd like to see somebody ever wear out any pin in a HUO environment.

The guy that works on my pins has been in coin op since the 70's and thinks all the new stuff is shit and certainly not made for routing

Of course there are two sides. I get that but Stern really has some glaring issues. As does JJP. The difference I see is JJP wants to figure them out. Stern doesn't seem to give a shit. Whether they do or not is almost irrelevant. It's how the consumer feels that matters and you can't tell me consumers aren't getting fed up.

Stern does some things well. They seem to know how to work the licensing angles. That is important for sure. If they can work the value and quality issues out I'd be ecstatic.

Hogwash. Name another brand one can operate today whose pins are more reliable than Sterns. You can't.

Totally agree. More and more customers are getting pissed. Myself included, but due to code and lack of communication.

Sterns wounds are self inflicted. If Zach doesn't change things dramatically from a marketing and communications standpoint then I'll agree, they don't give a shit.

Let's see what happens. All I'm saying is Stern isn't the devil and still seem to be growing sales due to great titles.

That tide can turn on a dime. I dropped my SWLE order and someone else scooped it right up

For all of the complaining they are selling a shit ton of pins

Yawn..... as usual you have to comment on everything JJP no matter the topic.

Sterns got years on everyone else so they can make more games per day - well no shit. Too bad they aren’t years ahead in terms of craftsmanship and value or we wouldn’t have this thread.

No need to get butt hurt. I don't know why the JJP sycophants can't get both sides

Well that's why I guess. I used to be that guy

I like to have a real discussion. Not a one sided one. As opposed to starting a bash JJP thread

Haha. Spoken like someone who doesn't operate.

JJP - I just did

Oh, you mean the ones that lock up after hours of use and need resets? A known issue that isn't getting fixed? Those games?

Lets have Fremont and Smoke weigh in. They both Op

Valid. I'm hoping they right the ship with Iron Maiden. What I don't understand is why not keep the pro line as your lower end. When you get into the premium and LE models why not also increase build quality as well as add toys etc.? Then everyone is happy. This isn't that hard to do either. Happy customers mean more sales. I know they can do it.

Flip side is if JJP figures out how to get into that $5k range and can get some good licenses Stern could be in for a fight.

I think/hope they have learned their lesson.

1000% the premium/LE needs to have a lot more meat on the bones. I bet GOTG will be different. If not, more people will be pissed even though a great theme

Just because Stern has dropped the ball in some areas doesn't mean they can't and won't pick it back up

I would imagine it takes a long time to ramp up to make 50 pins a day with employee knowledge and experience but JJP will get there eventually

Competition is a great thing

Did you ever think that statement wasn't true?

JJP put out a real winner with dialed in. It's a masterpiece.

It's also $8000 and it took 4 years to make.

Dutch, spooky, and whoever else aren't in the conversation. They are expensive novelties. And a total joke if you are talking about putting a route together.

Reality is a harsh party crasher in these stern Bitch threads.

Absolutely right which is why I only mentioned JPP. A game as good as "Dialed In" as a theme...imagine if it were Star Wars? Or any relevant theme? People would be losing their fucking minds trying to get one. Stern would be shitting themselves.

Dialed in would be really stupid as Star Wars. Ifs great as dialed in.

Who has time to sit around dreaming if dialed in had a Death Star in it? What's the point?

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems like you are illustrating and shedding light on an oversight perpetuated by the pinball community.

I'm not a "pinhead," but rather a casual player who owns one cheap machine and likes to read the forums to pass time at work (among other forums and YouTube channels).

That said, one thing I see more frequently than anything else regarding Stern versus other current companies is the affordable pricing of Stern. The gameplay experience, lights, rules, toys, themes, etc. are compared to that of other companies, such as JJP, Spooky, etc., and are deemed comparable. The price difference, however is significantly in favor of Stern for comparable game experiences.

However, this is a fallacy. Specifically, this is an apples and oranges fallacy. The previous paragraph's argument exists only when not including quality of materials and quality of manufacturing. You can say, "the game experiences of Stern are comparable to those of JJP, Spooky, etc., for a significantly lower cost," because the game experience is being considered in relation to the pricing, not the game itself in entirety. What you cannot say is, "the games of Stern are comparable to those of JJP, Spooky, etc., for a significantly lower cost," because it is a false statement which ignores quality.

From the best that I can tell, it appears that Stern is mass-producing lemons, undercutting the price of competitors, stating the price undercutting is due to the mass-production process, while hoping that no one has the wherewithal to realize that the price undercutting is primarily due to selling lemons and not primarily due to cost-savings due to the mass-manufacturing process.

In essence, this is like people shopping at WalMart and Ikea for Ashley Furniture knockoffs, without the realization that the reason for the cheap products at WalMart and Ikea is just that: They're cheap. They're cheap pieces of junk that don't work well and last like 6 months.

Now, I buy WalMart and Ikea furniture. In fact, my game room is WalMart furniture. However, I bought that furniture in full realization that I was buying a piece of junk until I could afford quality furniture.

You have to be cognizant of what you're buying in all aspects and why.

The common misconception that Stern is the way it is, because of mass-production needs to stop. Mass-production only accounts for a small amount of the price variations amongst pinball companies. Quality is where its at.

Ashley furniture is also cheap garbage, it's just designed to last 12 months instead of 6.

The year was 2007.
The change was not a pure acknowledgement or coincidence.
It was a deliberate decision by the Stern investment council based on the direction of the company, but continued to be disagreed for an additional two years.
It is was also evidenced by obervations by operators and discussions of the period.
Eventually arguments ceased, and decisions removed from the certain company individuals hands permanently.

Collectors have been buying new games for home use since the 1960s, especially Gottlieb. Used games jumped after the end of the EM era. The number jumped significantly first time for SS in the 1980s due to poor operator sales in the mid period, and again in the 1990s after release of the WPC operating system, and yet again prior to crash of 1999 due to game closeouts. Used games peaked at 2005 at the end of the reimport era and the new game market suffered again in 2006. There is a lot of pinball manufacturing history including active subterfuge against revival companies that brought us to the point of today. No company is purely innocent.

There's a great story behind why. You should ask Gary himself the conversation he had with Stern disties when JJP was formed

I've asked a few that don't why not.

And I know one that does and how he got F Ed in TH debacle

I don't consider Jack or Gary as pillars of truth

Some people have blinders on

LOL. Thanks for the laugh. That's a good one.

Do you think you will be able to fix that node board that only applies to one machine in 20 years?
How long has spike been in production and how many boards have you heard of being repaired instead of replaced?
On average how many node boards are in a new stern?

I would put any of my early ss reconditioned 37~38 year old Williams up against a new stern right now. They didn't get that old by luck.

There are a lot of em's that would beat them both.

I used to think that about Ikea before I knew better. Some of their stuff, perhaps not all, is actually very nice.

That's not a valid counter-argument.

In 20 years who knows. Thought we were talking about the present. Sterns are by far the most reliable pins at present. My Aerosmith Pro is on location right next to my early Williams SS. Guess which one I have to come in to fix again?

wasn't trying to argue. Just wanted to make sure that when you do upgrade your furniture you don't buy that garbage.

Here's how I see Stern: a company that exists to pump out product. They have X games a year to make, 3+ depending on how you count, and they get it done. That's no small thing, when was Alien announced? Who has one now? Who's got a finished one? I know as well as anyone how hard it is, and Stern should be lauded for what they accomplish that other companies struggle to do. It ain't easy. Credit where credit is due.

Ask a Stern employee and they'll tell you they wish they were making games like the Williams/Bally days, but aren't given the time and resources to do it. Programming time for a Stern game is half what it used to be, and people expect more complexity. It's no wonder they ship unfinished.

You kinda get what you get with that model. Look at my collection, I've downsized and half of them are Sterns, I don't have any hate for them. But I sold Star Trek after getting bored, and nothing since Metallica has grabbed me. 3 games a year is great, but if you only think one every few years if worth buying then eh ... if you're an op though, Stern is the place to be. I have zero intent to buy boring layout Star Wars. If I was an op I'd sure as shit be routing one though.

I'd say bash Stern less, and buy games less often. This forum is full of whining, and it's also full of people pre-ordering games sight unseen, because they like the license. I still remember when licenses meant your game was lame as f—k, and not something to celebrate.

Skip the next Stern, buy TNA, support unlicensed games that aren't $9000, and pinball will be better for it.

Why don't Stern distributors sell JJP pins?
From what I heard when Jack was pushing WOZ was that Gary would not allow anyone who sold JJP pins to sell Sterns. He refused to sell to them.

Correct or not?

Stern has been pretty clear in the past that they don't like for there vendors to carry other games. Some of the biggest get away with doing whatever they want since they buy so many games. That's why you see so many jjp distros that carry cgc and other non stern pins.

Seems like stern might finally be letting this go a little though as flipnout just became a stern distro.

Well that would be stupid on his part and if Jack likes anything he loves a sale no matter where it comes from.

Why would a distro commit to six figure purchases when I could walk into JJP with $10k in cash and walk out with a DICE

Not that I would, just sayin

Oh, I'll buy them, of course. They look nice enough.

However, I'm not going to plan to replace Ikea furniture with Ikea furniture when it wears out.

Case in point: I have a bedframe composed of composite wood. If I decide to upgrade my bedroom set, I am not going to choose a nicer and more fancy looking composite wood bed frame; I am going to choose a solid oak bed frame.

The best I can tell, the nature of the arguments in this thread appear to reduce to two camps: Those who value quality and those who value appearance of quality. This is appropriate up until this point. However, the latter camp attempting to directly diminish the value of the concept of quality for the personal desire to maintain appearance of quality really comes across as juvenile and selfish. This isn't directed towards you at all; simply continuing my conversation train of thought.

There's some phrase I heard recently, but don't quite remember. It's "champagne tastes on (something) money." This seems like it is an accurate analogy. As an "aside," with my yearly income being in the 90th percentile, and going to the TPF this past year, and holding my $1k (spent $650) in my pocket tightly, I genuinely couldn't fathom how so many individuals with income likely much less than my own (oh, single and no kids, btw) could, with a clear head, spend so much money on these machines, let alone when considering the diminishing quality of Stern as the object of what I personally treat as a fairly sound entertainment investment.

To say, "well its fun and look nice" is cool. To say, "well its built like a rock and will last" is cool. However, these are two very different arguments based solely on ones own emotions towards who they are, what they wish to be, and what they wish to do in life. Acknowledgment of both is important, but diminishing of either as fundamentally "incorrect" or "wrong" is in itself the only "incorrect" or "wrong" thing which could be committed.

Well, sorry for rambling hahahah.

If you aren't selling Stern games, with their volume, it makes a little tough for the few big ones that do for JJP

Profit matters

I'd love to support those guys and sure I will one day when they put out another theme I like

As for what Aurich said, disregard it and buy what you like. Nobody needs anybody telling them how to spend their $$$

Well, got some better companies in mind?

It's getting deep around here

Any place that has furniture made from solid wood. Pleather, particle board, and laminated veneer surfaces are the first signs of cheap garbage. A solid wood dresser, table, bed, etc will be around for your great grandchildren and actually still will be worth something.

:O already a ghosted pf?

Well, yeah, but still need a vendor lol. Mainly been sifting through thousands of pages on Wayfair.

Ok, since my college football season is over on game 1 I'm pulling the tarp off of my unloved Woz for the first time in several months.

Omg, the build quality is unreal!

I might donate it to the high school football team to use as a blocking sled.

Seriously, great pin, need to install witch mod i bought 3 months ago.

How about asking for "final payment" before they even reveal what the CE looks like! What a joke that is.

If they actually sold two dozen of those i'd be shocked. I mean people that actually follow through with the sale now

All of sudden, the distros have found a few CE's

Can you justify that one Spencer? Why not get the $12,500 CE, I'm sure its worth it, all that extra $3500 of quality oozing out of it.

Stern can't even get a coffee table book published.