Yes and no...afm has a drop bank in front with the scoop in the back combined with the saucer. MET has the 3 target bank with the magnet. SW is a tie fighter on a coil with one target.

It's ok. Stern can keep pumping out this shit and less people will buy.

I don't think they are selling SW as good as planned. Not sure just speculation. I seriously would buy a SW this month if it was that good. I just can't believe they dropped the ball on the most epic theme. I want to love it, but I just can't. I think my Aerosmith is better. Jmho

and a video mode that is quite enjoyable, especially during frantic gameplay.

Just pointing things out that's all. Again ST as the magnet to help the toy. The castle has the draw bridge and the moving towers and has the gully in front. I'm comparing them because boob's said they were the same, which they are not. I'm pointing out the differences in intricacies of each mech.

Some people will like SW..hell I absolutely love TF....to each his own I guess but if you think Stern keep pulling shit like this for the next few titles... I would say no.

Now, if Stern impresses me on their next game will I be in? Sure, if the gameplay, code depth and features are to my liking, they will get my hard earn money...about 10-12 months after release. If not...pass...it's that simple. I'm far from confused and make educated purchases based on what I like and the depth/progress of the game. As it stands now if JJP releases Toy Story (again personal choice, pending if it's awesome) or an epic title come this expo. Stern is in deep shit in my pocket book because my money will go to them.

If someone loves SW, who am I to stop them from buying their dream theme. I just love the people that bitch about people bitching about SW (tongue twister) and then turn around and bitch about SW lack of features.... It's just completes the circle.

BOM aside SW just looks like the biggest Stern cash grab of all times.

Just to be clear, you're saying SW Pro is 10x the game TNA is?

Maybe 1.3x the game would be more accurate? I'd rather play TNA, for sure. Looks more funner-er, despite not having ramps.

Well where do folks go then? How much are DI and TNA in Canada? Heck BW games are getting up there also. A lot of the folks that own and love BW games would have a tough time stomaching paying current prices to replace their collection. I bought T2, HS2 and WCS all for under $1800 and enjoyed them and thought they were great values. Add almost $1000 to all of them and the value tightens on them and it is not as easy for me to get out my wallet to pay prices of today for them.

Taking a step back from buying new games may be a good idea. Wait and buy HUO games that are complete is a great idea. I just don't think we can complain our way to lower prices and more features on games, but good god folks around here are trying.

How much is TNA delivered?

Nowhere is an option. Keep what you have and be content. You are not required to always buy something

Yes I am, by that I don't mean its more fun mind you, if TNA floats ur boat and the gameplay style is what u love then thats great, I want to play it and I'm sure I will like it very much but going by all this BOM shit and what comes with it in terms of code and all that most definitely. Actually I just realized I don't care at all. I'm glad both games are out there, just getting tired of this stuff I guess.

If people watched how shitty star wars looked in video and STILL bought it.... thats on them. We shouldn't tell people what to buy and what not to buy. They have eyes of their own, too.

True. We are all adults and make our own decisions. It does seem folks here don't want others to buy Sterns so they will put better feature and better code into their games in the future. Not sure how that is how it works though. Thinking folks are idiots for buying anything is just douchey though.

Everyone I know who has SW digs it. I am not just saying that for resale value. Well one person I know may trade his out because it was to hard for him. Ha! I can't stop playing it though.

Really I just play pinball for fun with a bunch my friends. We don't complain about BOM or try to tell each other how much better this game is over that in a douchey way though and you know what? We have a blast! I hope folks have more fun in the real world then they seem to have on PS. Some folks on Pinside seem pretty miserable, but it may not be due to pinball. Who knows?

If folks don't feel SW is a good game you will see a lot of them up for sale. If the value is not there we will see $1000+ off out of the box instantly. Not many on the market yet. We will see.

Yes I am pretty content. The way pinball is now I would recommend to anyone to wait a little to be sure you love a game before purchasing and try to buy keepers or semi keepers that will be in your gameroom for a long time.

I'm just talking about the one item in each game. You're adding more. And SW is still a blast--as is AFM--empty playfield and all.

...and I don't regret my purchase one bit. The next code update is pretty awesome.

He might not be. But I am.

I don't think I am, I'm just pointing out how the toys work and interact with the gameplay. You are still stuck with a tie fighter on a a stick Mr.Boobs

And you're stuck with a car that does nothing, Flash. And yet, somehow, we both still love our games...

Yes...yes I am Never really thought of that but it's true. Mustang doesn't really have an interactive toy. That's the first thing I did with mustang.....changed the damn car.... I wouldn't want to bash this beauty

21192074_10154568550177924_235036763317045450_n (resized).jpg

TF looks jam packed like a TSPP compared to SW. TF looks like they actually put some effort into the game. SW looks like they quit halfway through the design process.

Mustang is ridiculously good.

Unfortunately, most folks won't ever realize it because the theme is about an iconic car rather than fictional men in tights or metal suits. I think the music is pretty good too.

At $6000 are you in on TNA?

Stern and JJP aren't really competing for the same market - Stern is trying to get the highest margin and still stay somewhat affordable (BM66 not withstanding) - JJP is going for "The Best", and I say that meaning that price is no object for their market.

The original question was ...

"Stern bashing justified ? "

For me, the answer should be "Yes". Means that they have to move their a** to provide better innovative product and better quality.

Beyond that, .... nothing

Why are you so angry about Stern products anyway? Did you get burned by them before?

No I suppose Jimy is a bit disapointed, as a lot of us in France, when we see high value products with so cheap materials and such a bad quality... Anyway everybody does what he wants of his money... But it's better to know about it before...

Why do you care so much about people that care so much? Let people be passionate about pinball however they want. This forum should be a safe haven for anything/everything pinball. If negativity bothers you, stay away from these types of topics. But don't judge people because they feel negative about a product and are being passionate about it. You don't care... great. Other people do and it's ok for them to discuss it here.

Do the other manufacturers ship or have distribution in France?

Nope not an attack or anything like that. Just a simple question.

Also I am caring and interested when someone has an issue with something and I ask what happened and what is going on. Like I am not sure what someone means when they say they want "more Innovative product from Stern". The poster may have posted a problem before and I missed it.

I also feel more for folks who were directly effected by what they are negatively talking about. It could be 3 bad Playfields in a row from Stern or they don't even own a stern and have been into pinball for 30 years and don't like the way pinball is going. That is all ok. This is better than posting Stern sucks 20 times and walking away.

I care to man!

Most of them have distros.
- One for Heighway pinball (who still believes the LE comes with fiber optic lit ramps... ) http://www.franceflipper.com/flippers-neufs/alien-limited-edition.php
- Several for JJP
- at least one for American Pinball (and you can buy from Ministry of Pinball as well)
- none for Spooky

Eliot Spitzer was.

Hmm

Yeah Stern has its issues and seems to be slowly working on them, but who knows? Things are pretty tough all around though with TNA being $6000+ and JJP games costing $8000-$9000. The longer ago you got into pinball the less money you have into it to have the games you have and that is a good thing, but what about someone new? Well things will not be as good condition wise or quality wise and price is higher across the board to get into pinball, but there are still good values out there in and the fun is still off the charts.

I am not in this for money at all and am in it for fun. I have sold games to newbies at a low price and connected newer folks to other sellers to give them a hand at getting in the fun. A lot of them are my friends today. I help pinball veterans also. Make some connections with folks like myself and get into the game and if you are old or new to pinball expect to fully lose $1000 when you open that box containing the shiny new machine and you should be ok.

Just being positive and if Stern annoys you then don't buy their games or sit and wait to see how they play and buy one after code and quality are up to your level. Look around at other options also NiB or look back at older titles through the years. And have some fun with these awesome folks and pins!

No dispute re: costs continuing to rise for new pinball owners, but I question the "condition wise" thing. I would guess that it's much harder to find beat up (and cheap) versions of pre-2000 games than it used to be, because so many of them have now been cleaned up, fixed up, or restored. So while the average TZ or IJ isn't selling for $2,500 anymore, it's also probably in significantly better shape than the average TZ or IJ you would have bought 20 years ago.

Hmm yeah I think I was trying to say pay more for worse condition - like "usual fade" is a normal term now that folks accept.

Yes games are getting fixed up for sure though and that does add to the future cost. I guess on the flip side not all the money put in will come back on the fix ups. I have friends who put new playfields in games fully knowing that they will not get their money back if they sell, but they love doing it and that is great.

Quite right...
Several for Stern...
... and Duch Pinball (Holland) is only exporting to US...

Got the chance to try "Alien", DI LE, SW pro & SW LE on a recent pin convention (BGS in France, but have a look on flipjuke forum)... Stern pins seem made from cheap materials (ramps, legs, door, sides...). Seems worse and worse as time pass by...

No whaou effect trying Stern's, even if I was waiting this moment to play them since a while.

I'm not a "pro" JJP, but DI was better.

I just don't see a significant diff in Stern designs over the last few years. SW isnt significantly different than IM and the complaints on that one were similar at the time. Original AC/DC pros look pretty similar too.

Have the legs doors or ramps really changes at all in modern sterns? I can't see any difference from my Dale to my TWD to my Aero - spanning 10 years so what are you talking about?

JJP machines may be better built and have more toys but cost 60% more for the base model DI. (Base vs base)

Feels like stern and JJP have very similar cost/quality/playability ratios.

Everybody flipping out over JJP quality hasn't factored in yet the price increase that's coming

I think it's going to be $8500 base, $9500 LE

Let's see how that little dose of price spike tastes when it's announced next week

I don't care how much $$ you have, this is nosebleed territory. Especially buying several

Cabinet quality is definitely not what it used to be: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sterns-new-cabinets

Decals peeling has apparently been a new trend over the past few years as well (Stern apparently acknowledges that problem and will send replacement decals):

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/twd-premium-head-decals-peeling

Playfields are commonly exhibiting ghosting and clearcoat issues.

Node board failures with no schematics available for techs to fix them (on surface-mount soldered tiny components, to boot) is another one. Node boards also are not all compatible with one another. To me, that means the games may only last so far into the future before they're obsolete (due to lack of game-specific replacement boards if Stern should fold or abandon support for older titles).

Incomplete code upon release is standard now, and code updates are not on any regular time table either. However, Stern did make a public announcement recently regarding the state of their code, so maybe they are going to make some improvements there.

I will not pretend that JJP is immune to any of the problems Stern or any modern pinball manufacturer is up against, but it appears they are using a higher grade of materials and construction for their games than Stern--and i believe the higher cost is justified for those reasons...not to mention regular code updates and 1.0 code included from day 1. (They're up to version 6.5 at this point, afaik). They're making deep games with lots of toys, multicolor LEDs, ramps, video display, and all the other stuff everybody wants out of a modern game. As you pointed out, JJP's base games cost a couple grand more than Stern's base model... but incomplete code, peeling decals, proprietary boards, and ghosting/crap clearcoat are justifications why they aren't worth as much as JJP games anyway, in my opinion.

I don't really even have a horse in this race, as my first NIB is gonna be from Spooky (TNA, to be specific).

Frunch, I intentionally stayed away from the quality question.

The post I was responding to pointed to items that hadn't changed in ten years.

The other point was it's not just a couple grand its 60%. So don't expect the same machines.

You just need to pick your poison.

If he does thst he can kiss is customrr base goodbye...

Insert ghosting is an ongoing and significant problem that Stern needs to figure out. It's not clear what percentage of games its happening on, but it pisses off customers and must cost Stern plenty to do populated playfield swaps. Likewise, incomplete code support cannot be helping their business any.

Was there something beside the concerns about seam splitting/cracking? That was super lame, but with SW Stern is now reinforcing the hell out of the cabinet corners so that particular issue shouldn't be repeated.

The decal peeling was also very lame, but is that still being reported? I guess I wrote that off as growing pains when they switched to the new facility and new manufacturing processes, but if it's still happening that's not cool.

Well, i was following Stern more closely when i was in the market for a GB Premium, and those were the most common problems i saw cropping up. I was totally sold on it until i started hearing about quality issues (and incomplete code) and decided to steer clear. As someone who will probably only ever buy one NIB game, i felt like i really dodged a bullet on that one. If their construction quality is improving, that's certainly a plus. Just seems too risky to me, where i feel a lot more comfortable plunking down about $6500 shipped for a TNA. Quality construction, complete code, awesome game. (Not for everyone, i realize! It seems to be somewhat polarizing in the community) Thankfully we're living in times where there are multiple manufacturers producing games!

If there's that much evidence that puts all (or even most) of those concerns i listed to rest, then that's great for buyers, and great for pinball! As it stands, i think Stern bashing is justified because i believe we should expect more from these games as prices seem to continually rise. I interpret a lot of these quality control issues as products of doing things faster and cheaper. Maybe I'm wrong, but it fits in perfectly with the rest of the consumer electronics industry that I've experienced (I'm an appliance repair guy and i've seen the exact same cost-cutting measures being taken with appliances over the past 30+ years)...

Yeah, I'm not trying to convince you to buy a NIB Stern (or any NIB game, for that matter). It's much more reasonable to wait a few months, see how the games are actually doing in the wild, and then pick up a HUO at a slight discount that you can actually look at and play before buying, regardless of the manufacturer. Of course if we were reasonable, none of us would be buying pinball machines in the first place!

I was just curious if those particular issues (cabinet and decals) were really still going on. The insert ghosting and lack of code support are still pretty glaring black eyes for Stern.

A new in box is a lot of money and you want to make sure you make the right decision, but don't let some Quality control issues keep you from buying GB.

Full game is premium for Stern and base for jjp.

But for premium price do ya get premium quality?

Yes, the fact that it's the worst game ever made in the history of humanity should be enough to keep you away...but the falling-apart aspect and incomplete code is just the icing on the chocolate cake....oh wait, that's not chocolate!

good luck finding a SF2 NIB anymore. Probably still wouldn't clear the 1k threshold.

Not sure, but Id own both of those games in a heartbeat!

I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, but when ya put them side by side. BDK and B66 the same too so I wonder what title will be rehashed from MET.