You F ed up then. Stick to Golden tee Curly.

I too am a player and not an investor...it's suppose to be fun. But I did find the "hardness" interesting because some of the most recent problematic playfield so were Ghostbusters...and if there's a reason, maybe it'd be good to know.

Already paid for my 2018 update in full.

When you getting one brudda?

DO IT!

I agree, I own a GBLE, the pf isn't as "hard".

But, I promise you if I play the living shit out of it for the next decade it won't make look any different from anything else.

Life is too short.

It's coming next.

Well there was clearly sterns with high hardness numbers so it's not like they don't know what they are doing. On top of it, it's just data, no reason to get your titties all twisted.

You wanna know why everyone seemingly has a problem with stern? It's because most don't, they simply ask questions and are curious if there $9k pin is gonna look like dogshit in 6 months. Every time someone makes a comment even seemingly slighted at stern, here comes their army to defend them to their core. Most of the time innocuous comments are twisted around like their is some ulterior motives, and we just want stern to fail. The truth is most people want stern to succeed because they do put out some fun games. Maybe if people wouldn't kiss their ass and say, thank you sir, may I have another, maybe they would fix their issues.

What makes it even more ridiculous is I want a new stern. Trying to decide between a MET, TWD, GB or ST. But according to you, we are just a bunch of anal haters who just dislike stern. Instead of always grabbing your white knight shield, maybe try understanding some people are trying to make sure they don't end up with trash for their $9k purchase.

Otherwise if it clearly bothers you so much, then piss off somewhere else.

Sorry that data makes you so emotional that you seemingly can't take it.

Hey everyone, sorry I posted the hardness numbers. Iceman thinks it doesn't matter and is a waste of time. I'll make sure next time not to take time of my evening so iceman can keep defending stern based off "muh feelings" and not actual data. Nevermind when it's JJP he has to sing it from the mountains, but now that there is hard numbers he says it's stupid and waste of time.

Unbelievable that you continue to miss the entire point, and take the whole thing as an attack on stern. The data shows most sterns are fine, but apparently that's too much for you. Some people man. Pathetic, pfft.

If it bothers you so much, don't buy a Stern and piss off somewhere else. No?

Total absolute waste of time but knock yourself out.

It has ZERO impact on what I'll buy or not.

I have some pf's that are harder than others. Who cares?

Do you have a reading comprehension problem? I just said I'm buying a new stern, how many times does it take to get that through your head. Plus, all I simply posted was some data, do with it what you will. Obviously you don't understand numbers so youre lashing out in anger. It's fine. I even prefaced it with, it's all part of a bigger picture, and just because a number is lower doesn't mean anything, there is so many variables.

No, I'm just a hater who thinks stern is dogshit, right? I wouldn't have a problem with your opinion if you just werent so defensive over the mildest of comments. You obviously have nothing constructive to add, so go whine somewhere else. i posted the data for those interested, not for you to bitch and complain about. Now I have wasted more time defending nothing but data, to someone who obviously is too sensitive to handle it. Good luck man, you clearly need it.

Calm down man. I wasn't attacking you and don't care what you do. Nor am I defensive, I buy what I like.

This is a "Stern bashing thread", get it?

The A hole idiots don't get the fact that they have a choice.

It's not, that's what you miss time and time again. People are curious what the issues are and how or why stern does it right one time and shit the next. You throw blanket accusations around that everyone is haters and wants to bash stern. You miss the point. Every. Single. Time.

Either way, I'm done. I posted the data to help people, not defend "data" to people the likes of yourself.

Post away, about 5 engineers will care about the "data", whatever it is or means.

I have "play tested" almost every single recent Stern pin and the difference means NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.

The whiners and complainers, not saying you are part of that crowd, won't care or give a shit about anything you try and present. No need to get butt hurt about it.

Ice

What is the deal man?

Stern is awesome yes, but dude, they are not perfect.

IMO Stern learns from our gripes & needs to hear em.

I'm impressed they put cliffy's on my Aerosmith & beveled the edge of the drain/trough area then applied mylar in all the right places including around the magnet. Stern stopped wrapping cabinet decals, started using support brackets, installed protectors under the legs to end decal wrinkles & tons more I cant think of right now.

They do those things because we document their fails.

It's purdy cool they adapt to make a better product (sometimes) based on our feedback.

So if GB wood is soft & the inserts ghost while clear chips away I'd say that's good info for consumers to know & even better for Stern to know of.

So it took you until post 495 to realize there might be some Stern bashing. Somehow, the title of the thread, “Stern Bashing. Justified?”, wasn't your first clue?!?!?!

Pretty sure that's a direct contradiction.

Well, that's very noble of you. However, have you considered that 1 or 2 of the many "thousands" of customers who purchased machines might care???

You're trying to shoot the messenger. You keep attacking Procrastinator, yet all he did was provide facts based in reality. No emotion, no opinion. Just facts. If facts bother you so much, perhaps you are the very definition of a "cheerleader". Sorry iceman44, you're not winning this case.

Well in "real life" I own a SW pro with under 2k plays and it has 9 ghosting inserts . That's unacceptable. As an operator, I won't give a shit until the inserts pop out. But my collector business is long gone buddy. You don't think I still want an LE of every title?!?!?! Fuck yes!!! Not without quality though.

They need to produce a product that doesn't fall apart right out of the box. You know, BM66 turntables and all.

i've worked in a lot of production, done a lot of material purchasing. When you order something to be manufactured, you don't go out and test each piece to make sure it's identical to the load that came in before. Right dimensions, right weight. Check. Put it in production. Just like steel. Car manufacturers don't put the steel through some vigorous testing system. If they did, you wouldn't get some models that start rusting through the middle of a hood or trunk, under the paint with in years, and all that exact model rust same spot, the exact same way. Or the clear turns flat and dusty.

The truth of the matter is, they don't have some big testing setup for every batch of wood they buy. They assume it's coming from the same place and ordered exactly the same as before. And even if it's something new, I really dont' think pinball manufacturers really put their fields through that much of an intense testing. Assuming of course Stern didn't make the changes themselves to cut costs. Which I really don't know for sure. But just like the John T thread. I don't just assume one thing and run with it, and make up my mind that's what it is. Could be so many things from so many companies. If it's even anything to do with playfields at all.

And no i'm not a spokes fan boy for Stern. As i've said before, i'm actually really pissed at them for this spike system, disposable board system and it's the sole reason I will never buy another spike system game. And the one I do have, I may sell or trade down the road, even tho it's fun as all shit. And my ghostbusters doesn't have a speck of ghosting, and it doesn't have any more dimples than every other god damn clearcoated game i've ever owned.

I think you have some very valid points and I guess a lot of industries are different. For example, my customers do test every piece of material coming in. Now most of my customers are in the material supply side, steel, powder, aluminum, etc. Xrf analyzers can verify elemental makeup in a matter of seconds and verify the material down to the parts per million. I know two dozen shops alone that when a shipment comes in, they send the hourly guy out there with a gun to analyze every piece of material they just got in. Like I said, that is typically the standard, not the outlier. It also comes down to industry and how critical the piece is. I'm sure a fence manufacturing company doesn't care like a beam manufacturer does about the quality of the material.

But honestly, QC earlier on in the process is just good business. Imagine how much money stern lost replacing playfields. They probably could've hired an employee full time just to sit there and take readings of every piece that comes in, avoiding probably 97% of the issues. On top of that, yea you spent some money on QC, but the loss from replacing PF's is gone, negative press is gone, cost of shipping/labor for replacements and the customer support can be cut because people aren't calling with PF issues.

I'm not saying all this with absolute certainty, but you get very few chances at a good reputation. It seems like the smart play is to find the issues early on in production, before they are in the public. I feel like stern epitomizes the saying, penny wise, pound foolish.

Uh, no I won't be. If you like them that's great. Gives me a game to play on location.

IF I was going to spend 5~6~7,000 on a pin I sure wouldn't be wasting it 1 new machine. I would get 4 or 5 machines that I can fix and buy parts for for years to come.

I for one appreciate real cold hard facts/testing. When I say I have 37~38 year old machines with out a single dimple people say "oh that machine is slow and never gets air balls" wrong, it airballs on every shot to the pit area. They say "all the dimples have been hammered flat" no, I posted videos of close ups on the edge of the fields and under the edges of the plastics where balls can never go. When I say why do my cpr's that have thousands of plays not have dimples and all you hear is no comment.

Something IS different and I'm not just talking about Williams or Ballys or a hundred other manufacturers over the years. If everything is "operation normal" why is it only the last 8 to 10 years that the word dimple has even been talked about.
Until recently the word "ghosting" meant bulbs glowing. Guess I am to stupid to see clear not sticking too.

that's why I don't know if it's Stern that would cut a corner in the playfield department. Too expensive to fix if shit goes haywire. Make a scoop too thin, or designed like shit (like TZ scoop), not a big deal. $1.27 part. Kick out a new one. But something like a playfield could be a nightmare for Stern if shit goes crazy. But stern doesn't have 500k testing equipment to test things as trivial as surface wood hardness. I have a feeling, the QC process is more at looking at the sheets. Does the wood look the right color? number of layers there? Weight check out? Size? Send it to the screeners! If even stern even orders the fields. The screen printers might do all the ordering themselves. But I know stern does the drilling in house.

I would tend to agree with you. In this instance they could get a comparable machine for between $3-10k, depending on options. Hell, if they wanted it i would even trade them a pin for it. Haha

if you have one, Stern might be up for that trade. I'd offer it to them if I had one.

Procrastinator, thanks for the efforts you're putting into getting actual playfield hardness values. This could ultimately lead to higher quality playfields in the future for our hobby.

Please start a new thread dedicated to this important topic with instructions on how you tested, what equipment you used etc so others can test and post numbers. Thanks!

The Ghostbusters I hauled down to my basement seemed just as heavy as my first pin - Bally Fireball 2.

If Stern was going to cut quality, I wish they'd shave about 100 pounds off the weight.

I'm rapidly reaching the point of "getting to old for this sh!t".

I can't agree anymore with this.

Everyone who has played my game has come back several times to play it more. They're not even touching my other games.

Totally correct; that said, many of us want to see Stern take a risk or two on the layout and try something new. As for code, the Stern games that are best coded have all been hits (Tron, IM, Met, TWD, LOTR, AC/DC, GOT), but Sterns commitment to code does seem to be hit and miss.

Stern has the vast majority of the best coded games in pinball history. That said, too many games have been left behind by Stern for this to be a selling point on new releases for them (no one wants a mystery hole role on whether the code will be completed).

I don't think you need an expensive piece of equipment and a bunch of numbers to tell you Stern could do better in the quality department. I think all the criticism is good if Stern is listening but I think they are listening to the accountants a little more. People know there are quality issues, incomplete code, and stripped down features but still buy their games. That's their choice, though. I see no reason to go on and on about known issues. Plenty of other pins to choose from out there.

Testing the playfields was not about bashing stern more, because honestly it shows they do it right the majority of the time. The reason for testing is because there has been a constant back and forth of if there is issues at all. For example, I as a lay person don't know much about playfields and what is considered quality. I know what I think looks right, but not an expert by any means. The back and forth of, there's a problem, there isn't a problem makes people like myself wonder what the truth is. Now we know and have hard evidence. When I saw the GB pro with ghosted inserts I was excited to see if it would be a different reading then the majority of others. It turned out it was, and so there is obviously a correlation between the hardness of the playfield and the ghosting.

What else was interesting was that Churchill was semi known for solid playfields, but recently some have had complaints. I know my MMR looks good, but i always thought it never looked as nice as my older LOTRLE. Now, with hard data to go off, we can see some of churchills playfields are on the "soft" side.

I guess my view of it is, I would rather have information to make decisions with the full picture. That's why I got so defensive yesterday because all I was doing was providing the data to the people who wanted it. I'm sure there is others like myself who are still going to purchase stern pins, but at least I now know:
A. The issue isn't as widespread as it sometimes seems
B. Stern obviously has some playfields that are correct
C. "Soft" playfields aren't limited to stern

Like I said before, the data is there to do what you want with it, no more, no less, and it's a small part of a bigger picture.

To avoid the playfield QC light table confusion, remember to show them how to turn it on

Thank you for the data! It's great.

For those who say the data means nothing: You're telling me, if you had a choice to buy a harder playfield versus a softer one, you don't care?

Really????

The bigger question is how will person really know regardless if it is NIB or used?
Not that this aspect is not important.

Distributors do not let buyers open boxes and do testing on playfields before a person takes it home.
Stern still does not warranty a playfield (and never have) and changed their opinions regarding exchanges when they updated their policy.
Distributors are not going to let a potential buyer bring a PCB tube and steel ball bearing (this is the simplified version of the same test) and drop it on a playfield to see if it makes a mark on a floor model.

I would gladly pay to see someone try do testing to a game inside a private owner's home.
"I have to this ball test I need to do, before I buy your game..."

So what is a person supposed to do?

The reality is an enthusiast's needs to be able to spot some aspects by experience, and the rest is based on a bit of fortune.
Even construction dates are not some form of "guarantee".
Variances of wood on playfields were already explained before the hardness testing, and it validated the circumstances which were already known.

If a person is really worried about dimpling or potential clear coat cracking, strip the entire topside of the playfield and install a playfield protector. Unfortunately, it will not prevent ghosting, and ultimately not make the playfield impervious to dimpling either. So, it really does not solve everything. This is a lot of effort to try and keep a game under conditions of "perfection", only to realize an owner wasted more money.

In the grand scope of Stern manufacturing of pinball machines presently, there are much larger areas of concern than just the playfields.

I expect to see game quality overall (not just construction) continue to go backwards roughly to the same level as CSI or 24 within less than a year. Star Wars was VERY CLOSE in terms of lack of features. Not rock bottom, but another step down again from AS. Electronics will continue to be cheapened to new levels never seen before in the industry. Some people will still not know the difference, due to lack of experience, and the games will still be made even most cost effective for the manufacturer.
All for 2-4X the MSRP, dependent on model.

I don't see this as a "win" for a consumer, enthusiast, operator, or collector.

I don't see this as a "win" for a consumer, enthusiast, operator, or collector.

"Greetings Professor Falken. A strange game. The only winning move is not to play"
WarGames

With GB and SW funds I bought a BOP 2.0 late last year, a Restored JD and a BSD this year. So no worries there are plenty of choices out there.

Correct.

At least when it comes to NIB Stern games presently, not all games or manufacturers.
Now people are starting to realize the "final solution" here.

No different than what operators did in the 1990s, they took they toys and went home based on expanded overreaching MSRP prices for titles, excessive game title options, too many manufacturers in comparison to the sales market, and a peak of interest which began to decline.

"Private owners are the new operators of the pinball world."
People need to start acting like it, or they will continue to get price raped.
No one should be impressed with a subpar product, if a manufacturer KNOWS it is subpar.
That is ludicrous for a potential owner to try and justify, which I listen frequently on these forums with people trying to on purchases.

We need what is called a "manufacturer reset" period as it applies to fixing quality, construction, and feature issues, not a "recall".
"Recalls" do not fix problems, they are bandaids, if the PROCESS is not corrected.
Complaining about a set of problems, is not the same as trying to EXPLAIN what happened for education and allow consumers to make good decisions. Some people just need to distinguish the difference.

What I can't understand is, Stern starts cutting quality and value when there are SO many new companies emerging with some success. Stern has the ball but seems to be the one that is dropping it over and over and over... I don't get it. What is Sterns short/long term goals?

I have explained some aspects in the past.
Let's look at things from a future standpoint, not the present.

This is called "short term profit methodology".
It is actually a standard business practice, if a manufacturer can figure out how to do it, and TRY to make a product look/operate identical.
It generally is ineffective when it comes to some types collectibles, so it shows the high level of new potential owners and buyers today in this hobby, and the lack of understanding or caring about the standards of the past games. Other collectible areas, people will simply not buy the "knock offs" even if made by the same company that built the originals.

Don't get me wrong, other collectible areas such as antique radios for example or jukeboxes have "new products versus old", but you do not see Rockola start using plywood instead of walnut on their jukeboxes, putting in crappy speakers and amplifiers, removing chrome trim, eliminating bubbler tubes, or minimizing the original lighting (although plastic has been used as replacements) to simply make a few extra dollars on the jukebox.
When I bought my Wurlitzer 1015 OMT back in 2005 and compared it to the original 1946, Wurlitzer did a very good job at replicating the original machine including the carousel, minus of course the electro mechanicals. That is why comparative to a fully restored HER original, the "remake" did not cost $15-20K!
BTW, this market is EVEN SMALLER than pinball.
NOTE: Wurlitzer formally closed in 2013, even though it had been acquired by Gibson Guitars years earlier. Sad day.

Stern knows the pinball surf wave will not last forever, experienced the pain before, and have to take as much as they can, while they can.

If a potential owner was not buying NIB Stern machines in 2006, they did not see what happened.
In the long term, Stern will simply reduce production to 1-2 titles a year, or whatever the market can bear, and survive.
If things go really sour, the investor council will close the company permanently, as was considered in 2010.
This would only really take a couple of bad failures of licenses or titles, most other companies remain one title away to financial closure.
Stern will continue to accelerate cost cutting as they go, as needed, or attempt new directions such as the outsourcing of construction, parts, and materials to reduce overhead in order to offset any changes in manufacturing including the largest cost, LABOR.

The remaining manufacturers will fold, as there will simply be not enough demand to sustain them.
American Pinball is a good example, as they have produced nothing yet, and NEED Houdini to be great hit.
Presently however, CGC and PPS are gaining a good foothold in the "retro" market, which Stern cannot directly compete.
They do have the necessary licenses to do it, but could if they really wanted, if they did some reach back.
WNBJM is not a correct example of a "remake" as it was a "retheme" and not an original Stern game to start with overall.

To be be brutally honest, Stern would be better off re releasing older games from the 90s (DE), than some of the crap they did since 1999.
But would the games be the same QUALITY or less from what they made before?
Hmmmm....I don't think so....
People do not even realize reruns of the same popular games such as LOTR were not the same from one version to another...

With additional competitive pricing and proven successful games of CGC, Stern are concerned.
They should be, as there remains a finite amount of disposable income to be spent on the tiny % of people who want to own new pinball machines.
TINY.
The rest of the companies will continue to fight for the scraps of what is left to the end.
For example, Spooky LLC has the support of the community, unlike ANY other manufacturer, and has a good rep for customer service support. JJP is right behind them, and is recognized for their quality of games.
The rest of the companies all have complete and utter, uncertain present futures living on shaky ground like an earthquake fault.
Most have released no fully produced game at all, just prototypes or tiny amounts of games.

All other manufacturers represent less than 10% of the entire market and with prices for "premium" games effectively reaching MSRPs at $10K, it forced many potential NIB buyers completely out of the market, or forced to do the "Hokey Pokey" with Stern.

I am NOT doing the "Hokey Pokey" with a manufacturer that wants to give me less quality and game for more money. That is for the foolhardy. I already supported Stern once before on this aspect in the 2000s, and I will not tolerate them doing this again at least to me. For some this is some sort of "epiphany" which is NOT new to the pinball industry.

As a result, Stern knows where they stand at least for the next 2-5 years or so, or we as a whole have another pricing drop period in the market earlier than anticipated.
This is a prediction based on experience, not conjecture, as I stated even here before, and it WILL happen again.
This is not a market "crash", it is a pinball "recession".
Prices are already steadying on used "Top 10" games, and dropping for those hoarders of NIB games (still sitting in boxes) made more than 2 years ago. There has been a slow increase of owner's already "cashing out" as interest begins to fade again.

I disagree. There is not a single DE game that would sell well. Whereas after 1999 Stern has done some amazing games. For the very few customers that would desire that, they could buy one, restore it, and still have spent less than Stern would charge for a remake.

hi,
sorry i don't know where to ask..
what is the period warranty for a printing error on a cabinet decal?
thanks

Code is certainly no guarantee with Stern, except for Lyman eventually and Dwight very good lately. Lonnie has done a good job on AS.

Watch what happens when BM66 code drops! Gonna be a monster.

Once again, wait until they release GOTG and watch how fast people snap that theme up.

Supposedly, we are all "gonna be surprised". It's a pin i want to like for sure!

Yes Extreme, my BM66LE is just perfect now though Every other Stern pin I've ever bought, zero issues out of the box. Recent ASLE is perfect in every way.

Btw, i didn't have a chance to get over to NYNY last weekend to check out your "quality" pins, but i will next time, and I'll bring my magnifying glass.

Rest of you guys, whine away, I'll be waiting for GOTG, but at least you'll have the option to buy that gorgeous $9k POTC coming out.

Oh, and AFMRLE on the way, is that game shit too?

here is a thought,
If ghosting inserts and chipped clearcoat and cracks in playfields/ Damaged cabinets (corner seperations) and decals that are peeling off or missing artwork (rip/tears) why do I not see them being showcased at shows and Expos.
I think it best they bring examples like that. And if you see them like that and buy them like that , that would be the Norm . Correct?
They would probably get a lot of questions right there at the show on the imperfections and would have to say that is just normal . Then no bashing could be allowed !

Can you give us a picture/more details?

Good stuff, especially about that "Monster" Batman code that's getting ready to drop!

There will ALWAYS be people that are NEVER F ing happy with ANYTHING!

And if you guys own a business you know what I'm talking about.

It's obvious Stern has issues that needs to be resolved, nobody is denying that. Nobody is holding a gun to anybody's head to buy anything either.

I don't know about you, and thankfully it happens very infrequently, i red flag and stop sign the potential "pain in the ass". Some clients aren't worth ANY amount of $$ they pay you to put up with their shit. Just saying.

Of course. Here is a pic. I just want to how Stern warranty works? Period? When period starts?
Game built august 2016. got it nib around 4 months ago. I know I should have asked earlier, but it did not prevent me from playing ..and time is gone..

image003 (resized).jpg

Once I'm done reading this 'Stern bash thread" I'm starting a new "Ice bash thread".

Its gonna be way more fun I bet

This is what you are complaining about? take a sharpie of the same color and touch it to the cabinet. Solved/fixed.

Customers are king

Nobody gets the same level of demand, that generally rises with the price.
Pinball price must have doubled in twenty years or less...gradually when the market turned to the private.
And private is more picky than professional.

Stern's written warranty does not cover cabinet decals. Or the playfield. At all. In practice, Stern covers many more things, including ghosting playfield inserts, defective/peeling decals, etc. The written warranty is really quite limited, take a look and you'll be amazed given the amount of warranty-type service Stern actually provides for its machines.

I don't think Stern has ever publicized its "limits" (time, number of previous owners, number of issues reported on single machine, etc.) for offering customer support that falls outside of the written warranty. It would be surprising if they did, since they seem to want to maintain a "case by case" standard and that's harder to do once you make promises in writing.

So as with any issue with decals/playfield/etc., you should contact your distributor and ask if Stern's willing to do something. Even years after purchase people seem to have had good luck getting covered for things like board issues. Probably less so for "cosmetic" issues like decals and playfield defects, but you won't know until you ask.

Good luck! Worst case do what Neo says and buy yourself a colored marker. It won't look quite as nice but will save you the trouble of re-decaling your cabinet.

How can a distributor buy some pinball machine in stock without taking risk to be past warranty? Or period starts with the first buyer?
Effectively stern warranty seems to be nebulous. And there is no way to buy this side of cabinet decal either, just a colored marker seems to be the only way.
How does work with other manufacturer? Is there period warranty?

I like stern a lot, Best pin next to Bally/Williams /
Soon they will give us Sharpies with colors in game so if any touchups or tears in decals you may now handle them with ease . Easy fix but the 6 dollars of sharpies per pin may inflate the price another 100 per pin NIB for the extra markers