He's the "King of Payne" for a reason.

My Metallica is pretty dimpled. But, it still loosk good. I don't notice the dimpling on my other games. I'll get back to you in 30 years to tell you what Metallica looks like. Should be smooth as glass, I figure.....

I first noticed the dimpling on my Metallica too, but I was told the Steel is harder than wood line. Since then I've been waiting for it to smooth out also..lol. But just by looking at my RBION and NASCAR I know that's a load of crap.

HAHAHAHAHAH wiener MM. i'd clearcoat that as is and leave it.

Not sure what showing yet ANOTHER old MM PF with 100,000 plays and zero maintenance proves. Yes the flippers were scraping off the cc and paint for probably half it's life. Very few machines got the amount of play and were neglected like MM so this "explanation" means nothing.

These same pics get trotted out during these threads and the only thing they prove is how insanely popular MM was on location (WMS stated they wished they had tripled the amount produced) and that there were (are) some seriously lazy "ops" out there.

The only attention this machine ever got from it's owners was having the coin door opened and closed. I think the machine was trying to send a message to the owners with it's not so subtle "subliminal image"

it's not just zero maintenance on MM that causes this. I've done at least 30 MM playfields over the years. Nearly all of them had angel wings and wear in the middle like this. No other WPC95 game wears like this. It's not from flipper drag either as it's above the flipper where the ball goes. I ended up figuring out why MM's playfields wear so badly. The flipper bushings they used in MM were too high. This caused the flipper rubber to hit the top of the ball instead of the middle. Basically, causing the ball to push down and dig into the playfield like a pop bumper. Causing massive premature playfield wear.

So those that want to bitch about stern quality. Through the years, B/W had their share of quality issues that cause problems down the road too. All manufacturers did. The only difference is. Operators bought the games and didn't bitch about every little thing all the time like at home collectors do. granted, some things are justified to bitch about. but some of the little stupid shit some of you guys bitch about is just ridiculous.

That's part of the price of doing business when your focus market shifts to the home collector and you charge $15k for a pin. The moment they began tagging pins with "Collector's Edition" why would they expect anything different?

It's not premature PF wear when these examples that get trotted out have over 100k plays. With zero maintenance or any attention. And undoubtedly the same set of rusty balls for it's entire life.

I could buy the damage in the middle of the field theory but the sharp edges down by the flippers would seem to show damage from the arc of the flippers.

I don't bitch about Stern but I fail to see what yanking out these old pics of blown out PF's from one of WMS most played games ever has to do with brand new machines arriving with issues right out of the box. Don't really see the connection.

Stern has always treated me well in the past. Sent me a blank TSPP PF when I didn't like the one I ended up with...have sent ramps, etc all gratis when I had an issue.

But people have been aware of ghosting right out of the box since Churchill did the CV PF's yet I've never seen the amount of complaints or pics of the phenom as much as recently. So I certainly don't mind seeing home buyers discuss it or complain about it.

But you're right... ops didn't give a shit about it as they were getting a daily return on their "investment". Home buyers are in a different boat.

I think you are HEAVILY underestimating the impulse buying power of this forum. I think some people here would implode if they couldn't buy every game that comes out.

True, but at the same rate especially with SW release I see a lot of those "must have next title folks" move to "until stern gets their heads out of their ass I'm not buying folks"

I solved my problem quickly. I stopped buying NIB games and started buying games before the "ghosting is normal" era.

Agree with you. What I find funny is a lot of people here had to wait until "Stern let them down" over their "childhood dream theme" to make that big decision. Some saw the writing on the wall much earlier. Stern doesn't care about their community; they care about their pocketbook, and some people's chauvinism to Stern is finally wearing thin.

Maybe Stern will send out there new dimples/crater fix tool? Instructions: hit table 100,000 times with the round end of hammer to flatten playfield.

IMG_1196 (resized).JPG

And having your customers send you videos why you deserve to be chosen to spend $15k on a pin.

Sorry Neo but you are dead wrong on this issue. Much like you were when you said back in Oct 2016 that Stern fixed their playfield issues

Neo works for Stern. He is a secret employee pushing their product. I went to an estate sale once where the woman who owned the company was a vile nasty woman who called people names and insulted them to their face. She called my wife white trash and I think I would have backhanded her if the cop wasn't there. You can call me white trash and I would agree with you but not my wife. When you looked at their websight it was nothing but comments on how rude and how racist she was and how they would never go back but every once in a while there was a review saying how great she was and making excuses for why the woman was such a nasty, vile woman. This is what I think of when I see Neo being the undaunted fanboy regardless of their obvious shortcomings.

All of these negative claims are just fake pinball news! The failing PinsideTimes is doing nothing but spreading lies about Stern. Everything over there is great and a lot of great things are happening and will continue to happen. Expo is going to be huuuuge!

We will see when your $8000 game doesn't work in 5 years because of a board that they don't make anymore.

It's actually a 2-in-1 tool. Use the other end to turn the game on and off. Put a "Stern Pinball" sticker on it sell it for $50.

Lololololol.

Star Wars...

Man...

I was stunned @ Aerosmith & knew I had to have one. But Star Wars was pending so I waited because maybe I'd want Star Wars LE instead of Aerosmith or even better yet BOTH via a SW Premium + Aerosmith Pro.

My explanations to the wife were already prepared. I was ready for war with the Mrs. I was ready to buy Star Wars & Aerosmith no matter how stupid that may be (considering the price of NIB games).

But then I saw it.

Star Wars.

In all it's stripped down & cut & paste glory...

Disbelief was the emotion. Then I had questions like "Where's the rest of it" & "why redraw what already exists on a billion other licensed products"

So here I am.

No Star Wars.

Wah!

Good news though! I ordered Aerosmith & saved the "2 NIB @ the same time" for another day

Your loss. Amazing game.

There are plenty of later model SS clear coated games that were not neglected, but still attribute playfield wear.
Individual imperfections of playfield creation, the wood, age warping, or coatings are the primary sources.
I am just using layman terms, not all the intrinsics of playfield production within the industry.

As I stated BLY/WMS/AGC/GTB/DE/Sega games were hardly invulnerable.

Neither of the game shown below are from kickout points, VUKs, or slingshots.
The balls were replaced yearly on both titles from the operators.
Gameplay use was average.
The right flipper on this RS did not drag from a cracked or broken bushing.
Games were cleaned regularly, but in both cases the operator was not concerned with perfection.
Common wear "Achilles heel" points on both game titles were not seen at all such as pop bumpers.
This last point is a common indication of balls that needed to be replaced immediately.

It does not always start from divots, but sometimes simply from the ball moving across the playfield surface, and moves from one slightly lifted/sunken insert to the next related to expansion and contraction of both the wood and plastic insert.

If a person opts to buy games sight unseen, that is their choice.
Be prepared to accept what they receive.

I only provide information for education.
People may state the I may be too serious in explanation, but then the same people want keep polishing their own games with diaper and want them to be magical forever.
This is another hypocritical contradiction that is never recognized.
The only way that will happen is a person never plays their games at all.

The way you avoid some of the problems is knowledge, and know what things cause breakage and issues.

21740214_10155575073121083_591363260783875631_n.jpg
21728163_10155751211871617_5823376780797096436_n.jpg

But likely is from a rusty or dented ball not being replaced. No matter how high of quality the wood and clear coat / diamond plate is, a damaged ball will bring it down to the bare wood quick.

TBK I appreciate your knowledge drops, I do. But we aren't talking about 20-30 year old games, we aren't talking about tens of thousands of play. We are talking about quality issues straight from the box.

Yes, but if an individual knows WHY things happen from history, a person can understand better evaluate what has changed at least in some aspects of playfield production. Some parts are identical, some are not, which I already discussed previously.

I personally do not approve of some of the things Stern has done, particularly since 2011, not exclusive to playfields. We have spoken out. We were dismissed by some with no aspects of logic at all.
"You are just wrong" is the answer of the uninformed.

It IS cost cutting, and now NIB addicts simply are upset that they got bamboozled, and still are getting the same answers.

I dislike misinformation with statements exclaiming things "did not happen" from the past.

I dislike speculation and misinformation offered from people that have been involved in the hobby for only several years.

I dislike people fapping off on game hype, be outright belligent to those that stay in touch with industry, or act as bonified shills shills and fanboys for companies, only to be corrected later.

Playfield problems DID happen, new out of the box, for games like Funhouse, F-14 Tomcat, CV, AFM, and other titles of the past.
Not just the playfield production runs themselves.

Let's give another example from further history:

An operator friend of mine received a NEW Centaur back in the early 1982? during the tail end of the production run, that ended having to get a new wired PF from Bally because the lacquer was just all jacked up, and peeling around the inserts. That was part of the reasons WHY Bally offered full "Day One Mylar" as an option for this title, whether installed AT THE FACTORY, or provided in roll form to the operator.

If playfields were "bulletproof" why did Bally offer complete mylar solutions in the past?
Think about this aspect.

I was told they did. Said it was a insert shifting issue that was resolved with my run. I still dont' have any ghosting.

you don't pay very close attention then, because if you did, you would see that I refuse to buy another stern until they change their boards into serviceable pieces of equipment with schematics. That, and the prices start going back to reasonable. Instead of prices going up, while the games are going back to looking like the econoline years (IM, BBH, RS, CSI, avatar, ect)

I think you would have to do it over a small area close together to prove they even out the same.

Some guy already did this:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/live-dimple-quest-the-ultimate-test

I'd want to see more extensive testing. These were all drops from 1 foot, and his measurements seem to state that the dimples on all of them were about the same size from that height. However it is virtually impossible to get a ball drop from that height inside a pinball machine. I'd really have wanted to see other heights, and drops that had trajectories that were more ballistic in nature (shots not being perpendicular, but speed going in a direction towards the side as well).

And yes, I realize that at some point, I'm just going to have to do that testing myself.

There is no need....you know it, I know it..let the ones in denial stay there. You can lead a horse to water....

I just posted the following in the bounce thread. I will grab some equipment tonight and get a real answer.

Post:
Great effort here but I don't know if this is truly representative of finding the real answer. I own an inspection company and this is what I do for a living, even though hardness testing isn't my expertise. If you're only dropping it from a few feet, you almost always will get superficial dimples because you aren't testing to the maximum force. Lots of things have been thrown around from moisture, to clearcoat, to different wood, with anyone knowing the real issue. So if a playfield had more moisture in it, all the layers were softer (I'm not a wood expert by any means) then it may have a deeper dimple if applying max force, compared to an older, possibly more "dried out" play field. All games get dimples, but people are complaining about the depth of dimples, and theoretically you would either need a true hardness tester (rebound device), or apply max force (whatever that may be, but probably more than a few feet) to see the real difference, other than just superficial dimples. I also don't think the issue is as bad as some people make it out to be, but I have seen it for myself, otherwise I would've blown it off to people being over anal about their games. I have a really advanced hardness tester at my office that I will grab today and take some readings tonight to get some accurate data. I have a LOTRLE which has a perfect playfield, and a newer MMR which I can compare, but unfortunately don't have any of the newer sterns to compare to. I do know of one locally which I think I can get to though, but I will post back with what I find.

My LotrLE pf was excellent too. Still had dimples, not like my TWDLE or GBLE. My BM66LE and ASLE pf's look more like my old LotrLE pf comparison wise.

Yea, my lotr and TSPP look awesome, they look like new, even the drop holes. I'm curious who made the AS playfield as it seems to have very little issues. I'm looking for a MET, GB, or TWD premiums so I'm more curious than usual to see if their is any validity to the complaints. They do make some fun games so hopefully I can find a good one.

Great subject ... no escape

Posted on the other thread:

Not all the way finished, but using a rebound tester, and configuring for somewhere between hardwood and bronze, I got some interesting results. The problem is trying to get a reading through the clear, which is obviously changing the hardness of the material.

Average of 5 readings just above the valley on the shooter lane. HB is the unit of measurement, but it a complicated answer as to what the scale exactly is.

MMR: 119 HB

LOTRLE: 178 HB

TSPP: 138 HB (mini playfield was 153 HB)

TH: 163 HB

WOZ: 184 HB

I will do a GB and a MET On my way back from dinner and will update the results. So far I was really surprised by the vast differences in hardness, as a typical steel pinball would be in the 450 HB range the way the unit is configured. Keep in mind, these were the average of 5 readings from the same spot (I did some reference checks around the playfield and all results were within 5%). I always thought my MMR had some funky looking dimples, but nothing out of hand. I do Now know why my LOTR has always looked perfect, even after hundreds of plays, and it has something to with it being "harder" would be my guess. Either way, take what you will from the data, but it's not everyday you can use a $10k hardness tester for a god damn pinball playfield (I think I crossed a line of being "too into" the hobby and need to step back. Haha)

Would be interesting to have a group of readings from the same machine title (multiple WOZ, Met, etc), to see if there are consistent readings with the same title machines. Thanks for the results. Very interesting.

Wow! Finally, proof. thanks for taking the time.

Updated with more pins:

Not all the way finished, but using a rebound tester, and configuring for somewhere between hardwood and bronze, I got some interesting results. The problem is trying to get a reading through the clear, which is obviously changing the hardness of the material.

Average of 5 readings just above the valley on the shooter lane. HB is the unit of measurement, but it a complicated answer as to what the scale exactly is.

MMR: 119 HB

LOTRLE: 178 HB

TSPP: 138 HB (mini playfield was 153 HB)

TH: 163 HB

WOZ: 184 HB

I will do a GB and a MET On my way back from dinner and will update the results.

Updated list with more games:

MET: 157 HB

GB PRO: 92-104 HB (92 was at shooter lane, 104 was highest result elsewhere on the untouched portions of the playfield, 3 ghosted inserts)

NGG: 181 HB

TOM: 170 HB

AFM: 177 HB

TRON: 155 HB

GB PRE: 133 HB

ST PRE: 161 HB

Updated: With the updated results, especially with the ghosted one, it's pretty clear whatever they are doing with the wood has an effect. I checked the GB PRO all over, just to make sure I wasn't getting an erroneous reading. There was also a visible difference between the softer games and the harder games as far as playfield quality and condition. I don't really know what the fix is or what any of this really means as far as a solution, but at least their is verifiable data from a calibrated test device that we can go off. Also, we do rent this gear out, so stern is more than welcome to grab some equipment for their QC shop if so desired.

So far I was really surprised by the vast differences in hardness, as a typical steel pinball would be in the 450 HB range the way the unit is configured. Keep in mind, these were the average of 5 readings from the same spot (I did some reference checks around the playfield and all results were within 5%). I always thought my MMR had some funky looking dimples, but nothing out of hand. I do Now know why my LOTR has always looked perfect, even after hundreds of plays, and it has something to with it being "harder" would be my guess. Either way, take what you will from the data, but it's not everyday you can use a $10k hardness tester for a god damn pinball playfield (I think I crossed a line of being "too into" the hobby and need to step back. Haha)

and it very well might not be stern doing it at all. When you buy sheets in bulk. The distributor very well could have thrown some stuff in, without the proper top layer. For most applications, the top layer not being birch or something similar, would not be a big deal. for pinball, it would matter. Or the manufacturer of said plywood, thought they were getting a certain wood in, and it was actually switched with something else unknown to manufacturing. Kind of like that huge shipment of "beef" we got from china that turned out to be rat meat. I'm sure it happens in the wood industry as well.

How much does Stern pay you to constantly back them despite their insane amount of issues? I don't need an exact amount just a ballpark figure will do.

Even if that was the case, that is what QC is for. I know multi million dollar manufacturers that spend $60k in Xrf analyzers to verify the material incoming. I'm sure they don't want to do it, but they realize it's the cost of doing business. Even for smaller operations, their is rental companies and cheaper options, but QC is vital.

Good stuff @procrastinator. I can't believe Stern, or any pinball company, wouldn't want a tester like this...just to make sure they are getting the quality they are paying for...and to protect their reputation. I still love my pins, but I'm all about knowing what I'm buying too. Would be cool if this was a spec given, like dimensions and weight, by the companies..."minimum HB 160"...for example.

Any chance you can test a Star Wars? Before Star Wars I was firmly in the dimpling is normal camp. Star Wars was completely different and that is when I thought something was up. The one on location near me is different than any other pin I have seen.

Hmm your test shows Metallica at 157. The worst case of "the dimples" I have ever seen was a Metallica?

I'm wondering

So this is another crap on Stern thread, I get it, knock yourselves out.

Is anybody holding a gun to your head making YOU buy another Stern pin? Curly did.

Nope. They suck, shouldn't even be in business, blah, blah, blah....

Yet they will still sell thousands more pins than anybody else. Ask yourself why?

Because you are smarter than everybody else? Don't think so.

Bring on GOTG and that soundtrack. Tell me again who else is doing that theme?

Or any other theme that F ing people want?

Nobody gives a F about the anal BS that the crybabies whine about non stop.

Bottom line, every single one you whiners will buy another Stern if its a pin theme, code and layout you like.

Damn man...I too am sick of the crapping on Stern thing, but the hardness rating that is currently being discussed is interesting...and maybe helpful.

But I'm saying wtf and who gives a shit? Interesting? Sure, at least there is some substance behind it.

We still buy pins to play them, at least I do.

I could care less how "hard" my pf is.

Unfortunately that was the most pins I have in my area, and that was a guy who has a couple pins out locally. The gb pro was a route game as well as the met that were back at his for work. If there was a Star Wars easily accessible I could do it, it only takes a few minutes. I'll keep it with me when I go back to Atlanta next week.

It's pretty clear a lot of these playfields are getting sourced from different places, or simply manufactured differently. Hence a GB pro at 100ish, and a GB PRE at 133.

I always think about an incident when i first started my business dealing with QC. A aviation parts manufacturer kept getting bad batches of aluminum parts and couldn't figure out why. They monitored materials, the process, everything. What they finally realized was on two days a week, a employee who covered another role was responsible for transferring the parts from heat treating to the next section. In the middle of moving the parts on a cart, he would take a 10 minute smoke break in the cold upstate NY weather. It was effecting the heat treat on the parts, and took a while to finally figure out that that was the issue. Basically it just shows it might not be something like cheaper parts (or it totally could be?), but that something small in the process is making the difference between a shit playfield and a solid one.

Curly has had issue after issue.

I ignored the warnings here & now I've got a NIB project pin. OK, that is an exaggeration but you get my point.

Seperaring veneers of plywood

Broken, hollow & compressed wedges in the corners

Splitting seams

Game resets

Binding up when raising/lowering the PF

I'm happy with my game design & features. I'm happy with my distro. I'm happy with Sterns support so far.

But damn, I'm tired.