Giving it up for hand drawn art.
Quoted from mnpinball:
Design by John Borg
Quoted from mnpinball:
Art by Kevin O'Connor (same guy as the original)
This is the coolest part of the whole thing. Awesome move on Stern's part.
Here's where I get a little concerned, because my experience with Star Trek was frustrating. I definitely regret buying as early as I did. Doesn't mean that team can't deliver, they're all good guys, and all passionate about pinball.
But I'd want to know the plan for the code ahead of time. Star Trek was full of long waits, filled with just silence. And it wasn't much fun to know your game wasn't done, and really having no clue when/if it would get more work.
Just gonna say this: If you really love the theme and are just determined to buy this ASAP go for it. Knock yourself out. But please don't start threads complaining about how the code isn't done.
If Stern would just be up front about the plans so you could plan accordingly, even if it meant waiting, then it would be better I think.
Quoted from kvan99:
If this thing shoots nice, and the code turns out good, the LE will be very valuable....think AC/DC BIB, this is just my opinion. Notice there is a lot of "Ifs" though......
I wonder, this time around the LE doesn't have as much to differentiate it. They all have the same cab art, just color shifted. All have the same translite, just little color differences, and the LE will be mirrored. Which is very cool, love mirrored. Then the powdercoat. Not really the sam as BIB, with the laser cut hardware, blacked out look, whole different backglass etc.
Quoted from Pinballfantexas:
LE cabinet art is to have fire metallic foil as well. But I agree as of right now there really isn't that makes one of them stand out from each other unless this metallic foil really changes the look of the LE in person.
Oh that's true, I forgot about the foil cabinets. It looks pretty cool on Iron Man VE.
You know, I could quibble over a lot of things on the art. But I'm not going to, because I think Stern is awesome for going back to Kevin O'Connor, going full on hand drawn art, and capturing the vibe of the original table. It's cool that they were willing to do that, even though it was a Bally game.
I also think that whatever issues it has, it does make a great complete package when you see it all together. Looking forward to checking it out in person. Stern gets an A. If this is a bar that another game can try and top then we're in a good place.
No art can make a game without code good though, so that's really the question I have. It looks like it shoots well, and Borg is a great designer, but how are the rules?
Quoted from MapleSyrup:
plus Pinball Browser to sub in actually cool songs could make one killer machine.
Pinball Browser won't work on this game, only for SAM, not Spike.
Maybe that will change later, but at least for now there will be no song swapping on new games.
Edit: Damnit DCFAN!
Quoted from bayoubilly70:
Okay, but I still think there is something lost when the computers and art come into player versus hand drawn/hand colored/hand inked images.
This is just nonsense, sorry. Tools are tools. There are always lazy ways to do things, and computers just allow you to be lazier. There's nothing inherently wrong with coloring on a computer.
That Dracula image you posted is purely about stylistic choices. The inking and coloring on the first version would have been child's play on a computer.
Quoted from flynnibus:
OMG.. where is her right arm! It's like she has a hand on the shoulder...
It is a bit like that actually. It's a bad photo, and not composed well. If that photo was used on a translite, or as the reference for it, it would be a poor choice. It looks awkward. Yes, she has a full arm. But it looks bad.
I haven't been nitpicking the art myself, but if I wanted to I'm perfectly capable, there's plenty of stuff there to pick at. There are a lot of signs that it was a rush job, for whatever reason. I've chosen not to because I think overall it was a positive move on Stern's part, and it doesn't seem worth trying to tear down.
But I don't like it when people get all bent out of shape over some criticism. Rarehero has an opinion (that I and other people happen to think is right), he gave it in a constructive manner, and took the time to hand draw an example sketch to illustrate his point. That's a useful contribution to the community. Frankly, whining about it isn't.
Quoted from flynnibus:
composition or not.. it shows the truth in the practical matter of what it means to look at an arm pointed at you.. which is the point. The critique was not on the choice of composition, but in accuracy.
No, it's a composition problem. Which is why his sketch had the arm at a different angle.
If you're taking a photo at a concert or something and you end up with a funny angle, hey, it's live photography, so it goes. This is a drawing, you can pick any angles you want. It wasn't a great choice.
All there is to it.
Does it ruin the game? Nope. Some people won't care at all, some won't be able to unsee it. So it goes. Either way I care a lot more about how it plays.
Quoted from PinChili:
You know what makes the original Kiss pin ('79) desirable now IMO? It was a reflection of what was super popular at the time. A great time period piece. Nostalgia. Why does Stern keep focusing on bands of yester year?? Metallica, AC/DC, and now Kiss? There aren't bands just as popular that actually reflect current times? TV show themes, movie theme pins, and other genres form Stern seem to reflect current pop culture. Why not music pins?
Because the people with money to buy pins are old. True story.
Quoted from TOK:
I don't think a lot of people get that its an throwback to over the top late 70's early 80's art. Look at pics of the original Kiss machine, and other stuff like Paragon and Silverball Mania.
The point is completely lost on people complaining about perspective and composition... The way it looks is intentional. I *wish* I loved Kiss because the execution is perfect.
Of course we get it. It's not subtle, they're even re-using the pop caps. They're using the same artist for goodness sake, we get it.
Thing is I have Kevin O'Connor games in my gameroom right now. His Flash Gordon art is awesome (in a cheesy way). Check out Monster Bash, he can draw hands! And Frankenstein is even reaching out towards the crowd.
I think the overall package is great. There's no point in trying to drag it down. But it's fair to make some criticisms too. If you don't care then just enjoy it! But no point in trying to pretend it's "bad on purpose".
I still think Stern made the right call going back to Kevin. If he rushed the art or it's a little sloppy, eh, so it goes. Maybe I'd care more if I really wanted a Kiss machine, but I don't. I can just enjoy that it's 2015 and there's a hand drawn rock pin. If it's got some issues or isn't a band I like it doesn't take away from that.
Quoted from DVos:
Big deal if the game isn't 100% when they ship, you update it in about 10 minutes.
No one cares about the 10 minutes, they're more worried about the year.
Hey, maybe the shipping code will be good. Maybe Stern will post updates on progress and put out timely updates. I think it's just fair to say "buyer beware" and if you still want the game knowing the "risks" then buy it and enjoy it.
I think it's smarter to wait, see how it plays, see what the code is like, and not rush to pre-order something if you haven't even seen a gameplay video, let alone other hands on experience and knowledge. But spend your money however you like!
Quoted from TOK:
Talented artists are apparently still hard to find. About 4 Stern games in the last 15 years have good art. The rest are cut & paste hacks out of promotional material.
You can't put that all on Stern. Working with a license can be very difficult, often your hands are tied as far as what you're even allowed to do.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:
Not all of it is bad, and I like it better than photoshopped junk. But you spend 5 seconds looking at the translite and there are things you can't unsee
When you see it in full rez you'll realize there is some "photoshopped junk" in there too. The drum set is just a quickly masked photo, and the lights and stage atmosphere in the background are from a pretty low rez photo too. Frankly most of it was drawn over photos, and lots of it was just left bare.
Again, it's not a huge deal. I'm just saying, it feels like a rush job. There's a sloppy masking error on Gene's left calf. It's pretty subtle from a distance , you won't notice it with these small pics, but I'll see it every time I view the translite now. Bad masking on the logo. Clone errors in the background. Starchild or whatever his name is, look at his guitar strap. It doesn't actually connect to the guitar, it just ends in mid air with a couple inches of invisible strap connecting it. If it wasn't obvious that guitar is just a low rez photo with a quick outline around it. And I mean quick, it's not even hand drawn or cleaned up, has artifacts from using an outline layer effect on something that wasn't masked properly (see a theme developing?).
I don't have a problem with drawing over a photo, I use that technique myself, no accusations of "cheating" or anything here. But I have little tolerance for the slop. This is like a first draft sketch submitted for concept approval that was just rubber stamped and never actually finished.
Considering that Stern is using the same art for all three versions of the game it would have been nice if someone had give then whole thing a better once over. I wouldn't have let sloppy work like that past me on something I was art directing, you damn well better at least nail your masks. Give me the source file for this and I could fix all of these issues in an hour. There's really no excuse for it.
So it goes though. I doubt a single sale will be affected by it one way or the other. I'm not gonna bother posting images for all these problems, if you don't see them then just enjoy the art, no point in trying to ruin it for you. But here, just as a single illustration of what I mean, tell me there's a reason why no one bothered to at least finish the guitar strap?
Quoted from hassellcastle:
Aurich looking forward to your "alternative" translite for the Kiss pinball. I'm thinking something Love Gun themed with the band and hot chicks painted in white face.
Heh. I have no plans to do any more Stern translites anymore to be honest.
I'll still do mods for Stern games if things call out to me, but not going to touch anything branded. When I get some more time I'll still release this Metallica mod I'm working on. But no band shit on it, nothing but original art.
I imagine there will be plenty of bootleg translites with like Kiss album cover art or something. Dunno how the print quality is on that stuff though.
A lot of bands like to use re-recordings so *they* get paid (as opposed to record labels from old crappy deals). So it's just as likely it's about that then it is trying screw old members. Might have made the negotiations easier too. (Pure guesswork, have zero inside knowledge on this)
Quoted from Rickwh:
You know whats really bad about that photo of the guitar... That circle that the strap stops before it gets to is NOT the strap button, its the pickup toggle switch....
The strap button should be on the edge of the guitar ans stick out in te same direction as the neck. Its been totally clipped off on this pic.
Wow, nice catch.
Quoted from woz:
Actually the neck strap button for the Ibanez PS1CM is on the back of the guitar so it would be an easy job to clean up the artwork. I agree that this is pretty sloppy. Imagine the outcry if a CPR artist were this sloppy on one of their repros?
I just don't understand it. Maybe it's not final art, here's hoping, but why not just finish it? Especially if it goes to the back, that's dead easy. We're talking 45 seconds of work here.
Anyways, when the final machine comes out I'll do a "strap check".
Quoted from foureyedcharlie:
Revised translite is posted on Stern's Facebook......guitar strap is fixed
I didn't bother to check everything little nitpick I'd spotted, but from a casual look over I see a lot of other fixes too. So the other one was just rough artwork probably. Whatever happened I'm glad to see the changes, so all good. What's shipping on the machines is all that counts.
I knew about the SS bit, but here's a fact I didn't know:
"The symbol became so ubiquitous that it was frequently typeset using runes rather than letters; during the Nazi period, an extra key was added to German typewriters to enable them to type the double-sig logo with a single keystroke."
I'm not a fan of censorship, but it's just a logo, and if changing it for a market prevents misunderstandings then I don't see that as a problem. Someone will eventually re-import one, making it the "true LE"!
Hmm. I don't want to complain about getting early access videos. But that was kind of anti-climactic. Might have been better to save that particular trick for the final design. Probably looks cooler with the right plastic, timing, lighting, music, etc. Probably cooler in person too, the sense of "floating" is likely to be stronger.
But yeah, not really that compelling in that video.
Whatever though, it's just a parlor trick, it doesn't change the gameplay. So as long as it's fun to play magnet tricks are just icing on the cake, amazing or otherwise.
Hearing the music (no idea what the songs are) confirms that I'm not a Kiss fan, but that's not really a surprise. Whatever my opinion of the band, it's nice to see some early video from Stern. Way to control the narrative, much better than shaky cam cell phone videos from early location.
Well, I guess this was sort of shaky cam cell phone video too, but it was well lit, and you could hear, so big improvement still.
Seems simple enough to me, if you think Paul and Gene are dicks and you don't care for the state of the band then don't buy the pinball machine that puts money in their pocket.
Quoted from Methos:
Is there any chance for alternative translites? Since the era on the costumes on the game are 77/78 - I would love to have a high def image of the album art for Love Gun on the translite. It is probably their most iconic album cover art.
Only of the bootleg eBay variety for this one I suspect. I wouldn't touch it, that's for sure. Now that Stern is doing their own mods I think it's an area that is going to require more circumspection. And with a brand like Kiss especially.
Quoted from marksf123:
I agree the pro is looking better and better each passing day....
The Pro is also going to be available for a while. So unless you just have to be the first on your block with one why not wait a bit, and see the reports on the launch code etc before taking the plunge?
Quoted from Pinbally_1968:
I just got notified that my ''reserved'' KissLE will go over 9000 euros... I have to make the decision to go on with or cancel it by tomorrow.
Recently sold my STLE to pay for the KissLE...
The more I think about it the more I tend to cancel.
I can not let the euro/dollar rate interfere with my hobby is what I think now.
Personally I think it's crazy to pay that kind of money for a game you've never even played. What if you don't actually like it? What if the code sucks? We've seen from the Facebook posts that the code is pretty raw right now, so it's up to you to decide if you think that team is going to deliver a game you like later.
I really dig mirrored backglasses, so there's that, but it's the same art for all three versions, so that makes the LE one not nearly as special. Cabinet too, decals are shiny, but same art, just with some shifted colors. Really doesn't stand out at all compared to Star Trek LE does it?
It's your money, do what feels right. But since you asked I'd cancel, wait to see the reviews, play one yourself, and then if you really want all the features just buy a Premium later for cheaper.
Edit: Sounds like you canceled already!
Quoted from ChrisS:
Am I the one that feels the "will the code be finished" argument is kind of dead?
Sure isn't dead for me. I'm not even saying it won't be "finished", but will it be any good? You're not paying for something that's done, you have no idea.
Theme is important. Art is important. Layout is important. Code is important. If you're going to spend $5-8k on something I feel like you should be able to fairly evaluate all of that first.
I'm not beating the Wheel of Fortune horse here, it's not about games being "abandoned". It's just a matter of what are the rules going to be like? Are they fun? Are they mode based or scoring based? Are they linear, or can you approach them different ways?
Who knows how Kiss will really play. But since the Facebook videos have clearly shown that the code is very much raw and unfinished we can safely assume it's not gonna be a deep and finished product at launch. So you have to judge how much that matters to you personally. If that's a dead thing for you, and you don't care, then hey, great.
Quoted from Pinball-Wiz:
I'm buying an LE, so I didn't want to be left out and bought mine.. but if I was in the market for a pro or premium, which will be available for a long time, I think I'd wait this one out and see where the code goes.
Bash all you want, but I'm a big kiss fan so I don't mind letting my LE sit until the code finishes and just don't know if it would be worth buying early on otherwise.
Hey, fair enough. You're a big fan, you're willing to gamble, and you're walking into it eyes wide open. No need to apologize to anyone for that.
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