If Stern can get away not doing a backglass, they will and they do.
Only way to get them to do a nice backglass is if it hurts sales NOT to do it.....
And yes, a real backglass, especially mirrored is night and day better than a plastic translite.
Man, I love popping open a NIB pin, I've done it three times, but I'm out. Given the cost of new Sterns and the shitty QC, I'll hold onto my funds. If Stern ever gets their shit together, maybe I'll reconsider, but until then, NOPE.
Chris
Quoted from Cobray:I remember when baseball cards were $.20 a pack!
It was worth every penny for the pink chalk they called gum
Quoted from Cobray:I remember when baseball cards were $.20 a pack!
Damn I'm old - They were 5 cents when I was a kid and that included a stick of gum. If fact all regular sized candy bars were 5 cents.
I get the frustration with Stern. But somebody has to buy their pins NIB or they won't make any (maybe some people are cool with that).
The prices don't seem that out of line. What did NIB B/W games cost back in 1992-1997?
Heck, the $5000+ price tag on 20+ year-old B/W games is crazy to me too. Especially when I bought those games 10 years ago for half the current prices and the games were half as old.
Quoted from chill:Heck, the $5000+ price tag on 20+ year-old B/W games is crazy to me too. Especially when I bought those games 10 years ago for half the current prices and the games were half as old.
Exactly, the used market is the most out of control but hey "supply and demand" right?. 
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Quite staggering that people are paying these prices for a cheap plastic translite.
If you really are celebrating 30 years of pinball, a real backglass honors pinball history more than anything else.
Wow, $15000 and no backglass.
Wow.
This shouldn't be surprising for numerous reasons, including the fact that people who bought pins like STLE swore that they had a true backglass, even after looking at it closely. If most people can't even tell the difference, why bother with a real backglass?
Stern's new process for the translite (or whatever they are calling it these days) is much better than it used to be.
Quoted from chill:I get the frustration with Stern. But somebody has to buy their pins NIB or they won't make any (maybe some people are cool with that).
The prices don't seem that out of line. What did NIB B/W games cost back in 1992-1997?
Heck, the $5000+ price tag on 20+ year-old B/W games is crazy to me too. Especially when I bought those games 10 years ago for half the current prices and the games were half as old.
What are you talking about? They won't make any? That's ridiculous. They will continue to make them because they have been making them, and they used to for a lot less than they have been, so put the violins away. Their glass is full and spilling over (big pimping new factory) plenty of profits for them at older prices, they've just gotten greedy.
Quoted from Homepin:Please tell me where I can get a glass for $2 - even here in China is it a lot more than that!!
Long Glass Co. Detroit, Michigan; USA.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Quite staggering that people are paying these prices for a cheap plastic translite.
If you really are celebrating 30 years of pinball, a real backglass honors pinball history more than anything else.
Wow, $15000 and no backglass.
Wow.
It is just an indication of how much hobbyists within the market have changed.
Three plastic translites do not equal one quality back glass.
This is another Stern cost savings measure that was overlooked by hundreds both here on PinSide and around the world.
It slipped by many Stern fanboys as well.
In the late 90s (1995-1999), hobbyists/operators refused to pay increased NIB prices similar to the significant price jumps that started with Stern around 2012, even though construction quality of games was tenfold of today.
This includes games from Data East, Sega, and even AGC from the early 1990s.
Granted some of the early games (1992-1995) had overstocks but not 1000s of games.
Everyone kept waiting for closeouts for purchases.
Many games STILL had proper backglasses such as NGG and CP.
Both these game title examples also have many more features than Stern's latest game.
The backglasses were sharp, ink screening solid, and quality superb.
The jumps of game prices to offset shrinking production runs was one of several reasons that contributed to the fall of WMS.
Does this sound currently familiar?
This is the same occurrence now with Stern's direct refocus to the home market, partial disregard of operators, and hopeful expectations in the consumer market.
It does work for a while, but the "regulations" people sometimes refer does not exactly work out as hoped.
Manufacturers just close when times are tough, not readapt to changes.
It generally does not make financial sense.
Stern almost "bought the farm" when they tried to restart in 2001 with potential closures considered as early as 2003.
TSPP saved them the first time as sales were excellent.
New buyers need to be educated on what they are receiving for their money, or Stern with planned construction of BM66 will continue to reduce features with measured effectiveness. This is also why Stern's "The Pin v2.0" has been moderately successful this holiday season. People have no real idea what they are buying, they just "want it".
"Knowledge and astute observation provides the power to ensure good purchases."
I am just here to inform people interested in the hobby to pay attention.
There are a handful of trolls here that will not take the time to understand what I am trying to explain, and I am not being negative, just direct.
You can still find superb deals on used games, just stop looking at the "buzz feed" titles.
Pinball has so much more to offer.
Stern cannot justify the increasing costs of their games with anythings logical like economic changes, wage salaries, or the fact that games are "hand made".
Stern only employs approximately 200 people with average wages less than $25/hour.
Pinball games have always been hand made, because their is no way to properly construct a industrial robot to construct assemblies, do soldering, or validate manual game testing.
I heard this last sentence from Jodi during the John's Arcade Stern tour video, like it was some type of revelation.
Quoted from chill:Heck, the $5000+ price tag on 20+ year-old B/W games is crazy to me too. Especially when I bought those games 10 years ago for half the current prices and the games were half as old.
Do you think it's also crazy a factory brand new 1963 Corvette Stingray was $4,000 and now they are much older, are now selling between $80-125K ?
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:It is just an indication of how much hobbyists within the market have changed.
Three plastic translites do not equal one quality back glass.
This is another Stern cost savings measure that was overlooked by hundreds both here on PinSide and around the world.
It slipped by many Stern fanboys as well.
In the late 90s (1995-1999), hobbyists/operators refused to pay increased NIB prices similar to the significant price jumps that started with Stern around 2012, even though construction quality of games was tenfold of today.
This includes games from Data East, Sega, and even AGC from the early 1990s.
Granted some of the early games (1992-1995) had overstocks but not 1000s of games.
Everyone kept waiting for closeouts for purchases.
Many games STILL had proper backglasses such as NGG and CP.
Both these game title examples also have many more features than Stern's latest game.
The backglasses were sharp, ink screening solid, and quality superb.
The jumps of game prices to offset shrinking production runs was one of several reasons that contributed to the fall of WMS.
Does this sound currently familiar?
This is the same occurrence now with Stern's direct refocus to the home market, partial disregard of operators, and hopeful expectations in the consumer market.
It does work for a while, but the "regulations" people sometimes refer does not exactly work out as hoped.
Manufacturers just close when times are tough, not readapt to changes.
It generally does not make financial sense.
Stern almost "bought the farm" when they tried to restart in 2001 with potential closures considered as early as 2003.
TSPP saved them the first time as sales were excellent.
New buyers need to be educated on what they are receiving for their money, or Stern with planned construction of BM66 will continue to reduce features with measured effectiveness. This is also why Stern's "The Pin v2.0" has been moderately successful this holiday season. People have no real idea what they are buying, they just "want it".
"Knowledge and astute observation provides the power to ensure good purchases."
I am just here to inform people interested in the hobby to pay attention.
There are a handful of trolls here that will not take the time to understand what I am trying to explain, and I am not being negative, just direct.
You can still find superb deals on used games, just stop looking at the "buzz feed" titles.
Pinball has so much more to offer.
Stern cannot justify the increasing costs of their games with anythings logical like economic changes, wage salaries, or the fact that games are "hand made".
Stern only employs approximately 200 people with average wages less than $25/hour.
Pinball games have always been hand made, because their is no way to properly construct a industrial robot to construct assemblies, do soldering, or validate manual game testing.
I heard this last sentence from Jodi during the John's Arcade Stern tour video, like it was some type of revelation.
Excellent post, one of the better ones I've read.
Quoted from John_I:Ritchie plus Starr Wars equals NIB for me.
Im going to make sure the orbit shot works first...
Quoted from jgentry:No they haven't. I think XmenLE was the last true backglass. All of the others are just mirrored translites glued on. Well, unless it's mustang or GB. Those didn't even get mirrored translites. Tron and Avatar have the 3D translites instead of mirrored ones.
Is their a way we can make are own mirrored translites for are games if stern is abandanding this practice. Is their any speciality print shops that offer this?
I'm trying to think through my collection, past and present, and I think I've only ever owned two games with mirrored backglasses (BH, MNF)... and not once have I stepped up to a game and thought "this game would be way more fun to play if it didn't have a translite."
I think it's a bummer to brand new collectors, people that have lots of extra coin, or people that simply like a particular Stern title, as ignorant, misinformed, or foolish.
It's almost as if there's an underlying level of jealousy that drives some enthusiasts to hate on someone that's willing to overpay. Everyone has their own journey in this hobby... they can enter it when they want... and being new doesn't make their opinions any less valuable or important.
We're not talking about life or death matters, here. We're talking about toys.
Toys.
This notion of Stern fanboys being complete idiots is crazy. Like it or not, Stern has made some incredibly fun games in recent years. As a player, I think some have been absolutely fantastic. As a collector, they have been really fun to collect.
Market demands drive prices. That's a plain and simple fact. The market will take care of itself. It's not magic... not some understsnding of history... but pure and simple market forces. And as long as there are people that can afford Current NIB titles, they will keep selling for big bucks. Want to know why Williams shut their doors? It's because the market said there was more money in slots. It's because Williams saw a better way to make MORE money.
Money drives this show.
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:Three plastic translites do not equal one quality back glass.
At Expo George and Gary specifically pointed out that they choose their LCD size so that the backbox art would still be there and be prominent. They said backbox art is an important part of pinball history that they didn't want to lose it like Heighway and JJP have done with their full LCD backbox designs. Its too bad Stern didn't take it a step farther and decide to use a real mirrored backglass as well. Especially considering the price of the SLE.
I also thought at expo someone said the SLE would get three translites shown plus a 4'th unique one. If that's true than I guess there's a chance that could end up being an old school mirrored backglass?
Quoted from 27dnast:I think it's a bummer to brand new collectors, people that have lots of extra coin, or people that simply like a particular Stern title, as ignorant, misinformed, or foolish.
It's almost as if there's an underlying level of jealousy that drives some enthusiasts to hate on someone that's willing to overpay.
The problem is NIB games drives the used market through the roof. As long as the NIB market goes up, so will the used market because a LOT more people are looking for quality used games that aren't $5000+.
Remember DM/JM/BSD/TS/JD/T2 being $1500-$1800 titles? Notice how they aren't anymore?
It's not jealousy. It's people paying insane prices that affects the entire market in a ripple effect.
Overall I could understand the price increases if Stern was keeping quality high, code updates were released regularly (with more then just bug fixes / minor additions), extras for LE's were included versus being sold separately (ex, proton pack side blades for GB), proper support rails were included on all models, and an actual backglass is included with all LE's.
Stern is doing none of the above so it just seems crazy to keep paying their ever rising NIB prices.
Quoted from jgentry:No they haven't. I think XmenLE was the last true backglass. All of the others are just mirrored translites glued on. Well, unless it's mustang or GB. Those didn't even get mirrored translites. Tron and Avatar have the 3D translites instead of mirrored ones.
Mustang was translite for all three models. Trudeau gave me all three translite signed for a fundraiser.
Quoted from NPO:The problem is NIB games drives the used market through the roof. As long as the NIB market goes up, so will the used market because a LOT more people are looking for quality used games that aren't $5000+.
Remember DM/JM/BSD/TS/JD/T2 being $1500-$1800 titles? Notice how they aren't anymore?
It's not jealousy. It's people paying insane prices that affects the entire market in a ripple effect.
It's disappointing to see prices skyrocket across the board...and the two go hand-in-hand. But the market is the market. Supply and demand. The price of these games is exactly what folks are willing to pay. Frustrating? Sure. Reality? Yes. And if more people are lucky enough to get bitten by the collecting bug, prices are going to continue to rise.
Quoted from docquest:At Expo George and Gary specifically pointed out that they choose their LCD size so that the backbox art would still be there and be prominent.
those 2 are salesmen.
Reality is they knew they were WAY behind on leaving dots for color LCD, they wanted to specifically avoid the direct comparison to JJP and Heighway as much as possible (since they will fail in that comparison), wanted to shave costs by using a smaller LCD display, and decided the best thing was to spin it as "backbox art is important"
You gotta look through their hype for the reality most of the time.
Quoted from Barakawins1:wait until code is complete and quality is brought back to
Williams/Bally grade.
Stern code has never been W/B quality.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Overall I could understand the price increases if Stern was keeping quality high, code updates were released regularly (with more then just bug fixes / minor additions), extras for LE's were included versus being sold separately (ex, proton pack side blades for GB), proper support rails were included on all models, and an actual backglass is included with all LE's.
Stern is doing none of the above so it just seems crazy to paying their ever rising NIB prices.
Seems to me JJP is going down the same road.Game 1 two upper playfields a spinning house flying monkey melting witch crystal ball direct printed cabinet. Game two 4 popup trolls and a talking smaug
Quoted from drsfmd:Stern code has never been W/B quality.
I personally do not understand this comment. There are many Stern games that I would consider coded masterpieces, such as LOTR, TSPP, Spiderman, AC/DC, etc. They have the ability to do great code, but they rely on someone that is a master at coding (Lyman) to do it on his free time instead of paying a dedicated team of coders to do nothing but code because...well...if you don't have a lockdown bar or playfield rails, I think you can guess why.
The story of Wheel of Fortune is an interesting tale.
Quoted from shacklersrevenge:I personally do not understand this comment. There are many Stern games that I would consider coded masterpieces, such as LOTR, TSPP, Spiderman, AC/DC, etc. They have the ability to do great code, but they rely on someone that is a master at coding (Lyman) to do it on his free time instead of paying a dedicated team of coders to do nothing but code because...well...if you don't have a lockdown bar or playfield rails, I think you can guess why.
The story of Wheel of Fortune is an interesting tale.
Agree. You can throw in TWD, IM, MET into that mix... hell, Mustang is well coded game.
Quoted from 27dnast:Agree. You can throw in TWD, IM, MET into that mix... hell, Mustang is well coded game.
Iron Man has fun code but it needs a polish. It does not belong in the same catagory as TWD or Met (and I own all three games).
Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:It does not have a REAL backglass either based on the feature listing.
(Subject to further Stern change or reduction of features at anytime)
Actual backglasses make games valuable, for their art factor alone.
More important than equivalent PDI glass.
I bet most people did not even catch this change.
- SLE gets all 3 translites (SLE)
- SLE unique translite and cabinet art by Christopher Franchi (SLE)
- LE unique translite and cabinet art by Christopher Franchi (LE)
- Premium unique translite and cabinet art by Christopher Franchi (Prem)
Basically, owners get three pieces of plastic instead of a proper mirrored and detailed backglass.
Just another reason not to be impressed, based on cost reductions.
Remember this game was supposed to be their "30th Anniversary Special" game but it ships with no real backglass?
New owners now do not even realize the true differences.
It like watery Prego, it's in there, but it does not always taste good.
Wow under the new stern pricing model I guess my STLE would be at least $15,000 
Quoted from TigerLaw:Iron Man has fun code but it needs a polish. It does not belong in the same catagory as TWD or Met (and I own all three games).
Can you please elaborate.....what needs to be done to IM...?...it gets my quarters(dollars) 100% of the time when I play location....Thank you.............Joey
Quoted from Whysnow:those 2 are salesmen.
Reality is they knew they were WAY behind on leaving dots for color LCD, they wanted to specifically avoid the direct comparison to JJP and Heighway as much as possible (since they will fail in that comparison), wanted to shave costs by using a smaller LCD display, and decided the best thing was to spin it as "backbox art is important"
You gotta look through their hype for the reality most of the time.
One thing to consider is their LCD is going in all models, including their Pro, which none of their competitors try to match on price. If their LCD is inferior to others, its because of maintaining the Pro line.
Quoted from Breaking_Dad:Can you please elaborate.....what needs to be done to IM...?...it gets my quarters(dollars) 100% of the time when I play location....Thank you.............Joey
Aside from a lame skill shot, what could possibly done to IM?
Quoted from 27dnast:Aside from a lame skill shot, what could possibly done to IM?
Easier to get an extra ball.
Make Do or Die Multiball attainable for more than just a handful of people on the planet!
Quoted from frolic:One thing to consider is their LCD is going in all models, including their Pro, which none of their competitors try to match on price. If their LCD is inferior to others, its because of maintaining the Pro line.
Smoke and mirrors. You can go to Walmart now and get an lcd tv for practically dirt, this technology is old and affordable now. This is their idea of justifying the cost to us for the upgraded offering. If anything, it probably costs less than the standard dmd. Cost cutting to them and up charging to us always makes sense.
Quoted from Shapeshifter:Easier to get an extra ball.
Make Do or Die Multiball attainable for more than just a handful of people on the planet!
You can go into the settings and set replay to trip an extra ball... and can't you also change DOD to carry over from ball to ball?
DOD is one of the beauties of that game... feels great when you get to it largely because it's so difficult!
Quoted from shacklersrevenge:Smoke and mirrors. You can go to Walmart now and get an lcd tv for practically dirt, this technology is old and affordable now. This is their idea of justifying the cost to us for the upgraded offering. If anything, it probably costs less than the standard dmd. Cost cutting to them and up charging to us always makes sense.
Remember, some of those TV manufacturers are actually taking losses on the TV product itself - many of those Smart TVs get kick backs from companies like pandora, Netflix, Spotify, etc to advertise the service on the box as they are looking to get subscribers.
Quoted from frolic:One thing to consider is their LCD is going in all models, including their Pro, which none of their competitors try to match on price. If their LCD is inferior to others, its because of maintaining the Pro line.
Replaced the LCD in my laptop the other day for $64. Lets not build in excuses for it to suck at a price increase before they even ship the first pro.
Quoted from Whysnow:those 2 are salesmen.
Reality is they knew they were WAY behind on leaving dots for color LCD, they wanted to specifically avoid the direct comparison to JJP and Heighway as much as possible (since they will fail in that comparison), wanted to shave costs by using a smaller LCD display, and decided the best thing was to spin it as "backbox art is important"
You gotta look through their hype for the reality most of the time.
Nobody cares about spin. Jjp games look pretty stupid, which a huge display with far too much info. It's like trying to watch Fox News with 5 different crawls and info boxes. The stern/Dutch screen is a much better size for pinball and the game won't look stupid when it's turned off.
R u guys for real? Prices increase on most items every year from food to electricity so on and so on and all of these factors play a role in the increased pricing of manufactured goods and a lot of other areas, I would agree prices are too high but to make it out like ur some victim when you don't have to buy pins is really stupid, priced out then find a new hobby. Jesus am I the only one that can see whats happening here, these guys know this won't last and are capitalizing, same thing in the used market, 3 to 4K for a Shadow, WTF? don't buy anything, its quite simple. 
Quoted from frolic:One thing to consider is their LCD is going in all models, including their Pro, which none of their competitors try to match on price. If their LCD is inferior to others, its because of maintaining the Pro line.
LCD cost pennies now-a-days and even Stern admits that. There is supposed extra cost in the people making the images, but in talking with those in the know dots took more time then LCD images do. Just a different skill set.
Other manufacturers offer a PRO model that is full featured with nothing taken out. It is those other items that likely bump the 'pro' / standard/ whatever it is called model.
Reality is that if Stern is trying for 5k or now the rumored price fixing at 5300 for a Pro then things like a full featured JJP standard, Spooky regular, or Heighway regular are in the same price realm for an actual and complete game.
Quoted from Hazoff:R u guys for real? Prices increase on most items every year from food to electricity so on and so on and all of these factors play a role in the increased pricing of manufactured goods and a lot of other areas, I would agree prices are too high but to make it out like ur some victim when you don't have to buy pins is really stupid, priced out then find a new hobby. Jesus am I the only one that can see whats happening here, these guys know this won't last and are capitalizing, same thing in the used market, 3 to 4K for a Shadow, WTF? don't buy anything, its quite simple.
agreed that Stern is pushing as hard and fast as they can as they see the cliff is coming.
The problem people have with price is less about the increased price and more about the RATE of the increase combined with the decreased value of the product (i.e. QC, failing pfs, pealing decals, unfinished and increasingly buggy code).
Quoted from Whysnow:wanted to shave costs by using a smaller LCD display,
Quoted from Whysnow:LCD cost pennies now-a-days
well yes... those statements are not in opposition.
Small LCDs cost little.
Smaller LCDs cost even less.
Let's not forget that Stern went to cheaper quality screws to shave fractions of pennies per game. It all adds up and they continually push the limits of how much they can cut from a game.
Quoted from Hazoff:Jesus am I the only one that can see whats happening here
Quoted from Hazoff:R u guys for real? Prices increase on most items every year from food to electricity so on and so on and all of these factors play a role in the increased pricing of manufactured goods and a lot of other areas, I would agree prices are too high but to make it out like ur some victim when you don't have to buy pins is really stupid, priced out then find a new hobby. Jesus am I the only one that can see whats happening here, these guys know this won't last and are capitalizing, same thing in the used market, 3 to 4K for a Shadow, WTF? don't buy anything, its quite simple.
It's not about pricing me out and the need to find a new hobby, I have a hobby, it's pinball. It's about the greedy push from Stern and the quality behind the product is not satisfactory. It's even beyond the collector market, what about the operators? Price increases are normal, sure, but not every two seconds, and not for worse or cut back product.
Smart buyers will look elsewhere, and that's what I have done. I know of some games that are a lot less than a NIB, full featured games. That's where my money is going.
Quoted from Hazoff:R u guys for real? Prices increase on most items every year from food to electricity so on and so on and all of these factors play a role in the increased pricing of manufactured goods and a lot of other areas, I would agree prices are too high but to make it out like ur some victim when you don't have to buy pins is really stupid, priced out then find a new hobby. Jesus am I the only one that can see whats happening here, these guys know this won't last and are capitalizing, same thing in the used market, 3 to 4K for a Shadow, WTF? don't buy anything, its quite simple.
I understand what you are saying. Don't consider myself a victim but just trying to get Stern to realize they are killing their market base. If their plan is to die guns blazing then I guess they are on schedule. This applies to JJP for that manner, there's a reason why JJP suddenly switched paths and created another tiered version of their dialed-in.
I'm just sticking with what i've got right now because there is no way I'm spending what they are asking. For me it's *f me three ways* kinda situation
1) Price increases
2) Code updates that are random, in some cases poorly tested
3) Stripping down of features on the pro to place on higher models
I love pinball but I'm not a millionaire.
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