(Topic ID: 175720)

Stern announces another price increase- TELL THEM NO!


By shacklersrevenge

2 years ago



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  • 804 posts
  • 223 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by JY64
  • Topic is favorited by 12 Pinsiders

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    Topic poll

    “Will you continue to buy NEW Stern games?”

    • No 510 votes
      75%
    • Yes 85 votes
      12%
    • unsure 87 votes
      13%

    (682 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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    There are 804 posts in this topic. You are on page 10 of 17.
    10
    #451 2 years ago

    You guys in the USA still dont know how good you have it.... So a new stern Premium is what ? $7200?US or $10,258NZ

    To buy a new Stern Premium will be 14k NZ (currently 13,600) 14k NZ = $9,826 US Now that price would give you something to cry about.

    Carry on

    #452 2 years ago
    Quoted from shacklersrevenge:

    It's not about pricing me out and the need to find a new hobby, I have a hobby, it's pinball. It's about the greedy push from Stern and the quality behind the product is not satisfactory. It's even beyond the collector market, what about the operators? Price increases are normal, sure, but not every two seconds, and not for worse or cut back product.

    Hey I agree with you, I feel the same way about JJP, ok the build quality is there but its not as if they have zero issues and for me the themes suck which is equally unsatisfactory, I'm priced out from all the current manufacturer's, Alien gets my money because its Alien and SW might cause me to pay up buy otherwise its over. I'm sticking with sys 11's and sys 80's and I'll go play the Sterns on location or at the distributors.

    #453 2 years ago

    Can anyone speculate the cost of materials for Stern to build a Premium version of a pin? Excluding upfront development cost of course.

    Assuming Stern works off a 50% profit margin- and 8% going to distributors- works out to 42% net profit for each machine that ships out of their building.

    Ok.. let's go through this- I know I am probably wrong, but just going off napkin math, maybe people can correct or add to this math and we can get a pretty accurate ballpark/guesstimate here:

    1) Assuming sold price out the door, shipped, etc of $7600
    2) Shipping cost $325.00 (Stern gets a discount due to volume)
    3) Distributor gets a 8% cut after shipping costs, that works out to $582 profit for distro
    4) Stern receives a net of $6,693 for the machine itself
    5) BOM's estimated at $1792.00 due to supply chain discounts due to volume (cabinet, playfield, decals, all components, etc)
    6) Assuming 40 hours of assembly time paid at the rate of $22/hr would be $880.00 in labor

    7600-325-582-1792-880 = $4,021 profit per machine. Not bad. But factor in obvious operating costs such as management/admin, employers costs, rent, electricity, maintenance on assembly line machines, etc etc.

    Assuming 20 pins are completed and shipped per day, thats 100 per 5 business day period.

    Cash flow on a monthly standpoint would mean Stern is netting for the pins themselves $1.6m per month, and likely more due to LE's and SLE's ... but for the sake of simple math we'll just assume the average profit across the board equals $4,021 per month

    That means Stern's monthly cash flow is around $1.6m per month, or $19.2m annually

    Assuming 165 employees make an avg of $44K per year with benefits factored in, that is $7.2m annually
    Assume 35 additional management level employees average is $90K per year, that is $3.15m annually
    Assume Gary's salary + bonus is around $1m/yr
    Factory annual rent (if not owned out right) $275K
    Jody Dankberg's annual subscription to Brazzers: $119
    Jody Dankberys annual keyboard replacement cost due to Facebook customer service rage fits: $678
    misc expenses - $1M / annually

    Stern's net annual profit is $6.5M

    Assuming Stern is bought out, using a P/E ratio of 7 plus any assets they may own- would mean there is a valuation of around $46-49M if it was to be bought out

    Ok I went a little far with that.. but let's just say they are decently profitable as a small business and they are likely trying to boost valuation at this point to sell.

    #454 2 years ago

    This thread and every thread like it

    zzz (resized).jpg

    #455 2 years ago

    Stern produces more than 20 games a day and once the factory starts spewing at full capacity you'll be looking to close to 100 per day. Currently they should be producing about 50. So your figures are way off just based on that but your hypothesis seems sound.

    #456 2 years ago
    Quoted from kpg:

    Distributor gets a 8% cut after shipping costs, that works out to $582 profit for distro

    I think you are way off they hold some games for years have large warehouses many employees there cut %25/50

    #457 2 years ago

    These prices are outrageous. Tell them no! And go hungry....

    page_2 (resized).jpg

    #458 2 years ago
    Quoted from drsfmd:

    Stern code has never been W/B quality.

    Seriously? You have got to be joking. What you are saying is Lyman's coding has gotten worse? Or did you not know Lyman worked on W/B games as well?

    #459 2 years ago
    Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

    You guys in the USA still dont know how good you have it.... So a new stern Premium is what ? $7200?US or $10,258NZ
    To buy a new Stern Premium will be 14k NZ (currently 13,600) 14k NZ = $9,826 US Now that price would give you something to cry about.
    Carry on

    It's all relative brother, but what you are used to paying VS the increase stings everywhere.

    If I want to buy a new German car, it's going to cost me dearly compared to buying it in Germany. It is what it is.

    #460 2 years ago

    At least there is a bright side, We pay less for a big Mac.

    Big Mac Index - Prices Around The World
    View information as a: List Chart
    Rank
    Country
    Big Mac Price in US Dollars
    1
    Switzerland
    6.82
    2
    Norway
    5.65
    3
    Sweden
    5.13
    4
    Denmark
    5.08
    5
    United States
    4.79
    6
    Israel
    4.63
    7
    Canada
    4.54
    8
    Britain
    4.51
    9
    Brazil
    4.28
    10
    Uruguay
    4.13
    11
    Euro area
    4.05
    12
    Costa Rica
    4.03
    13
    Australia
    3.92
    14
    New Zealand
    3.91
    15
    Turkey
    3.87
    16
    South Korea
    3.76
    17
    Philippines
    3.61
    18
    UAE
    3.54
    19
    Pakistan
    3.44
    20
    Singapore
    3.44
    21
    Chile
    3.27
    22
    Saudi Arabia
    3.20
    23
    Hungary
    3.18
    24
    Thailand
    3.17
    25
    Peru
    3.14
    26
    Mexico
    3.11

    #461 2 years ago
    Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

    At least there is a bright side, We pay less for a big Mac.

    Stern is trying to make a statement that they are no longer the McDonalds of pinball.

    #462 2 years ago
    Quoted from Cobray:

    It's all relative brother, but what you are used to paying VS the increase stings everywhere.
    If I want to buy a new German car, it's going to cost me dearly compared to buying it in Germany. It is what it is.

    This is true, At least the flip side is all our old pins go up in value also as people look for other options

    #463 2 years ago
    Quoted from pinballcorpse:

    Seriously? You have got to be joking. What you are saying is Lyman's coding has gotten worse? Or did you not know Lyman worked on W/B games as well?

    How anybody can compare the code and how long it should take regarding 90s games and modern games is beyond me.

    You know, gottlieb games in the 1970s shipped with complete code too. WHY DOES IT TAKE STERN SO LONG?!!!

    #464 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I'd love to join the boycott but Aerosmith looks awesome and you know Star Wars is gonna rule. And pulp fiction with Mark Ritchie making a comeback?
    As soon as I'm done buying all three of these I'll be sure to rosa parks this shit along with you guys.

    Here's a look at the first two who preorder Pulp Fiction from Stern.

    pulp (resized).jpg

    #465 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    Iron Man has fun code but it needs a polish. It does not belong in the same catagory as TWD or Met (and I own all three games).

    IM code is superb for what it is. Obviously nowhere near the depth and nuance of pins like TWD etc., and I agree that there are some things that should be polished, but code on IM is one of those things that transcends it's relatively simple appearance.

    #466 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    . WHY DOES IT TAKE STERN SO LONG?!!!

    Because rolling out code doesn't immediately bring money cash in for them. They are a manufacturer looking to make money, as Gary Stern is eloquently willing to state in all of his speeches. If you dissect Garys words, thats what it boils down to. They want to make cash and don't care if it means raising the prices for the long term supporters and everyone else, because people will pay it.

    Ghostbusters LE again showed them that people will pay markups. People were desperately looking for GB LE's and paying over market price, and Stern knows it. They couldn't produce GB Pro's fast enough at the start either. The hunger and "gotta have it" market is fat for Stern, and they're adjusting their pricing structure to us on how we responded to them.

    Since this business is "fun", we expect the manufacturer to be "fun" and feel the same specialness of the hobby and a sense of being part of a bigger thing (IE., the pinball hobby), but the reality is all they want to feel is the cash in their pocket because after all, that's why they are here.

    #467 2 years ago
    Quoted from kpg:

    Can anyone speculate the cost of materials for Stern to build a Premium version of a pin?

    You can speculate about anything.

    End the end, though, that's exactly what it is: pure speculation. This seems particularly true when it comes to manufacturing pinball machines. From what I hear, making pinball is hard.

    #468 2 years ago
    Quoted from Cobray:

    Because rolling out code doesn't immediately bring money cash in for them. They are a manufacturer looking to make money, as Gary Stern is eloquently willing to state in all of his speeches. If you dissect Garys words, thats what it boils down to. They want to make cash and don't care if it means raising the prices for the long term supporters and everyone else, because people will pay it.
    Ghostbusters LE again showed them that people will pay markups. People were desperately looking for GB LE's and paying over market price, and Stern knows it. They couldn't produce GB Pro's fast enough at the start either. The hunger and "gotta have it" market is fat for Stern, and they're adjusting their pricing structure to us on how we responded to them.
    Since this business is "fun", we expect the manufacturer to be "fun" and feel the same specialness of the hobby and a sense of being part of a bigger thing (IE., the pinball hobby), but the reality is all they want to feel is the cash in their pocket because after all, that's why they are here.

    So... should car manufactures start jacking up their MSRP's because a few idiots pay a crazy markup on the latest car just to have it sooner then anyone else? No

    #469 2 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    You can speculate about anything.
    End the end, though, that's exactly what it is: pure speculation. This seems particularly true when it comes to manufacturing pinball machines. From what I hear, making pinball is hard.

    Bullshit ... I heard it's easy!

    #470 2 years ago

    I wouldn't buy Stern pinball with my $$ for ANY price multiple and have to deal with you bunch of whiny m fers on a daily basis.

    Why do you think Gary drinks. The external infliction of emotional distress has to be off the charts!

    #471 2 years ago
    Quoted from Cobray:

    Ghostbusters LE again showed them that people will pay markups. People were desperately looking for GB LE's and paying over market price, and Stern knows it. They couldn't produce GB Pro's fast enough at the start either. The hunger and "gotta have it" market is fat for Stern, and they're adjusting their pricing structure to us on how we responded to them.

    Yeah but its the GB theme that caused that hunger, if it had been based on the new film it wouldn't have been the same and they will get a wake up call with Aerosmith, BM66 and SW will have little problem selling well but Dialed In will not, its all theme and has been for a long time, TS and JM great great pinball machines but the films were shit for the most part and that kept them at 2K mark for a long time even less where as TZ and TAF easily double the price, then MM and MB etc. quadrupled, I know most will say much better pins but not for me, much better themes, thats the ticket and the only good thing that will come from these higher prices, the theme will have to be up to par otherwise no one is laying out this kinda a money, I would rather pay 10K for a Blade Runner or SW OG trilogy than 7 or 8K for WWE, Aerosmith or a pin that revovles around a cell phone.

    #472 2 years ago

    I should include myself. I wouldn't want to deal with me either

    Kpg, you need to get to re working those charts !

    #473 2 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    Yeah but its the GB theme that caused that hunger

    It made me want to puke.

    #474 2 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I'd love to join the boycott but Aerosmith looks awesome and you know Star Wars is gonna rule. And pulp fiction with Mark Ritchie making a comeback?
    As soon as I'm done buying all three of these I'll be sure to rosa parks this shit along with you guys.

    If there is a Pulp Fiction pin.....With Samuel L. Jackson callouts.... I can't help but be "say "what" one more time"

    #475 2 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    You can go into the settings and set replay to trip an extra ball... and can't you also change DOD to carry over from ball to ball?
    DOD is one of the beauties of that game... feels great when you get to it largely because it's so difficult!

    Are you sure you mean DOD multiball? DOD mode is much easier and is perfect.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-near-impossibility-of-do-or-die-multiball

    #476 2 years ago
    Quoted from Guinnesstime:

    Here's a look at the first two who preorder Pulp Fiction from Stern.

    IMG_5380 (resized).PNG

    #477 2 years ago
    Quoted from iceman44:

    I should include myself. I wouldn't want to deal with me either
    Kpg, you need to get to re working those charts !

    Yeah, the chart I posted the day before the Dow pulled back 130 pts. and still is lower than the highs? Still waiting for it to play out.. the market is allowing the greedy people to book profits before the bigger pullback

    #478 2 years ago
    Quoted from Breaking_Dad:

    Can you please elaborate.....what needs to be done to IM...?...it gets my quarters(dollars) 100% of the time when I play location....Thank you.............Joey

    Needs a real skill shot. Do or die multi ball needs to be made somewhat attainable. Needs work on the multi ball. Just minor stuff but it needs it.

    #479 2 years ago

    Some here seem to have little idea of actual costs and issues at a manufacturing level.

    To clarify on LCD screens - a "standard" PC style LCD screen such as used by JJP are many times cheaper than specialty sizes such as the new Stern offering. A standard 21" PC screen (at factory levels) without a plastic case and driver circuitry costs around 120rmb* (when purchased in lots of 220pcs - 20 cartons) and that's simply because they are produced in such massive quantities.

    Every other size is much more expensive, even the much smaller ones. The physical size has almost nothing to do with the cost - it is almost entirely down to the volume produced.

    * 120rmb = approx US$19

    #480 2 years ago
    Quoted from 27dnast:

    hell, Mustang is well coded game.

    You had me up until this example. Sold past the close.

    #481 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    Needs a real skill shot. Do or die multi ball needs to be made somewhat attainable. Needs work on the multi ball. Just minor stuff but it needs it.

    Those things would make it better......but it doesn't need them. As is it's one of my all time favorites.

    #482 2 years ago

    I was on the bus until someone said Pulp Fiction.

    Sorry gang! I'll take the SLE version!

    pf (resized).jpg

    #483 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    Needs a real skill shot. Do or die multi ball needs to be made somewhat attainable. Needs work on the multi ball. Just minor stuff but it needs it.

    I love my IM. I probably play it the most out of all my games. But I can't imagine Stern taking the time to crack it open and update it. From a business perspective updating that might make 20 people that care happier, and would piss off WAY more than that who are rightfully bitching about things like cities in KISS. Updating IM would make other customers even madder. That is the bigger impediment.

    #484 2 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    But I can't imagine Stern taking the time to crack it open and update it.

    Maybe another VE with comic book art and some updated code but the OG is great as is.

    #485 2 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    Those things would make it better......but it doesn't need them. As is it's one of my all time favorites.

    The do or die multiball is the biggest problem. I've never even seen it; it is not attainable except for the literally the upper upper echelon of player (top 100 quality player).

    #486 2 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    These prices are outrageous. Tell them no! And go hungry....

    No!

    #487 2 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    Some here seem to have little idea of actual costs and issues at a manufacturing level.

    Appreciate the post. While I know it would be poor form to comment on Stern as a competitor directly, can you offer some level setting guidance to those of us who are upset.

    As a manufacturer, do you foresee Homepin following a similar pricing increase over time based on your experience as a manufacturer? If you develop costs savings in engineering, specifically to Homepin, are the manufacturing projected costs such that you forsee increases over time at the same level?

    Not meant to read sarcastic - not intent. Sincerely, appreciate education if customers expectations are incorrect - again - in general.

    #488 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    Needs a real skill shot. Do or die multi ball needs to be made somewhat attainable. Needs work on the multi ball. Just minor stuff but it needs it.

    That's just like...your opinion, man. Iron Man is a masterpiece of "simple" coding with excellent nuance and challenge. It doesn't "need" anything. There's a reason demand went up & it back into production...that doesn't happen to games with code that "need work". Some games have simple skill shots...it's no big whoop. Most people who play pinball don't even remotely care about skill shots - they just plunge and go. I've had LOTR since 2008 and haven't been to Valinor...does it need an update to make it "attainable"? No. If a game is fun enough and has enough stuff to do, and the logic all ties together nicely - and there's ONE thing that's really really really hard to get to...that's absolutely acceptable.

    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    The do or die multiball is the biggest problem. I've never even seen it; it is not attainable except for the literally the upper upper echelon of player (top 100 quality player).

    ...and most have never been to Sperm Attack on FGY, Super Duper Uber Whatever Wizard on TSPP, Encore on AC/DC....nothing wrong with that if the game is awesome.

    #489 2 years ago
    Quoted from Homepin:

    Some here seem to have little idea of actual costs and issues at a manufacturing level.
    To clarify on LCD screens - a "standard" PC style LCD screen such as used by JJP are many times cheaper than specialty sizes such as the new Stern offering. A standard 21" PC screen (at factory levels) without a plastic case and driver circuitry costs around 120rmb* (when purchased in lots of 220pcs - 20 cartons) and that's simply because they are produced in such massive quantities.
    Every other size is much more expensive, even the much smaller ones. The physical size has almost nothing to do with the cost - it is almost entirely down to the volume produced.
    * 120rmb = approx US$19

    Gomez has said that Stern is using a 15.6" display. That's one of the more common sizes for laptops. Dutch has a really nice screen size, but I don't think that is a COTS item. From what I have read, all of the other manufacturers are using standard screens of various sizes.

    #490 2 years ago
    Quoted from Rarehero:

    ...and most have never been to Sperm Attack on FGY, Super Duper Uber Whatever Wizard on TSPP, Encore on AC/DC....nothing wrong with that if the game is awesome.

    I've been to Sperm Attack on FGY, twice. Totally different level of player needed for Do or Die Multiball. Same with Valinor on LOTR's. You can just increase the number of balls to five on LOTR's and a solid player that knows the game will eventually get to Valinor with a couple dozen attempts. That just won't happen on IM with Do or Die MB...

    Anyway, why not just adjust the settings to reduce the number of drones you need? That's the big problem on IM...if someone likes it the way it is and never wants to see the mode they can leave the settings alone, but give us mere mortals an option to reduce the number of drones we need...or some other adjustment.

    #491 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    Anyway, why not just adjust the settings to reduce the number of drones you need? That's the big problem on IM...if someone likes it the way it is and never wants to see the mode they can leave the settings alone, but give us mere mortals an option to reduce the number of drones we need...or some other adjustment.

    I agree 100% with this....give us the option to make it attainable by mere mortals. In the meantime I'm have a blast just getting to regular DoD and Jericho. Jericho is one of my favorite modes in ANY pinball game. I have beaten it on 1 ball (once) and now keep it set to carry over because it's so much fun to play......I still rarely finish it becasue by the time you normally qualify it you only have one or two balls left anyway. The only way IM is ever leaving is if I desperately need the money or leave the hobby entirely......or I die and my wife sells it.

    #492 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    if someone likes it the way it is and never wants to see the mode they can leave the settings alone, but give us mere mortals an option to reduce the number of drones we need...or some other adjustment.

    I stick a towel in the main drain as my adjustment in settings to get to Do or Die in IM.

    #493 2 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    I love my IM. I probably play it the most out of all my games. But I can't imagine Stern taking the time to crack it open and update it. From a business perspective updating that might make 20 people that care happier, and would piss off WAY more than that who are rightfully bitching about things like cities in KISS. Updating IM would make other customers even madder. That is the bigger impediment.

    It would show people that Stern will still support a game even six years after release (if it's still been in recent production and sold well) and want to deliver a high quality product. This doesn't hurt them, it's just a minor polish.

    Obviously I agree Kiss is a bigger priority but that doesn't mean spending a day on IM code to get tiny tweeks in is a bad business move. Just my two cents.

    #494 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    Anyway, why not just adjust the settings to reduce the number of drones you need? That's the big problem on IM...if someone likes it the way it is and never wants to see the mode they can leave the settings alone, but give us mere mortals an option to reduce the number of drones we need

    You can already do that. Just take the glass out.

    #495 2 years ago
    Quoted from Kiwipinhead:

    You guys in the USA still dont know how good you have it.... So a new stern Premium is what ? $7200?US or $10,258NZ
    To buy a new Stern Premium will be 14k NZ (currently 13,600) 14k NZ = $9,826 US Now that price would give you something to cry about.
    Carry on

    Must be the shipping.

    #496 2 years ago
    Quoted from Concretehardt:

    Wow under the new stern pricing model I guess my STLE would be at least $15,000

    If they sold the same game new in 2016, they would price the game the same as BM66SLE based on the features or Stern would attempt to try. STLE has one of the best light shows designed in the past five years, especially with the cabinet phasers. BM66 SLE "whoopee light" was not an improvement or innovative.

    #497 2 years ago
    Quoted from kpg:

    Can anyone speculate the cost of materials for Stern to build a Premium version of a pin? Excluding upfront development cost of course.

    It is roughly $4500 based on materials and workmanship.
    However, this considers that a game has at least a production run of 1000 machines, anything less significantly hinders the actual ability for a manufacturer to produce profit.
    This also considers existing arrangements and contracts with parts suppliers, as this company is not "starting from scratch".
    This means Stern is grossing at least 35-40% gross profit margin, not considering overheads, initial development cost (including specialization design for parts and artwork), or oddity problems with licensing.
    If you conservatively take this into account you must decrease actual profit margin decreases to around 20% which equates to roughly $1600 per machine.
    If a person wants to do the research and understand the industry, they can find the data.
    The true benefit of maximizing profit margins with any title is the ability to produce and sell the maximum number of units under the provisions of the license, which is the same for any marketed product.
    This is what makes reruns so lucrative.

    #498 2 years ago
    Quoted from TigerLaw:

    The do or die multiball is the biggest problem. I've never even seen it; it is not attainable except for the literally the upper upper echelon of player (top 100 quality player).

    IM rules are similar to Avatar. I've done both do or die and Final Battle on Avatar a few times. I prefer Avatar though, I think it's the better game and the scoring is more balanced.

    #499 2 years ago

    well, dollar just get another up in value (vs euro)...
    i'm afraid even more of the next "new" prices here in europe, seems that GB was my last NIB :/
    i love pinball, but its not a priority in life, it must remain a hobby (not evbd could afford these crazy prices in the future)

    #500 2 years ago

    $500 increase?

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