(Topic ID: 230751)

Stern Pinball Sales Have Grown 80% in the Last 3 Years....

By BackFlipper

5 years ago


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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Bublehead
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    There are 135 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
    #51 5 years ago
    Quoted from JY64:

    Panzer do you really think JJP is crushing it really?

    Depends on how you look at it. They have made 4 pretty good games that to some are amazing. TH code took way too freaking long to get really good but overall they have consistently finished their games so far. With a game on average every 24 months they should be killing the code though. So game wise I think JJP has done really well other then the constant QC issues on early games from all 4 titles.

    Business wise is a completely different story. You have people bagging on stern about not hitting 3 cornerstone titles when JJP consistently needs 24 months+ to get a new game in production. They have had to be bailed out financially twice already and were weeks from going under with TH production. They apparently missed the profit projection on WOZ by 3K as the game went from $6500 to now $9500 without a direct print cabinet or wooden apron. They announce games with features then remove them because they don't work 6 months after they announce a game. They just can't get a new title out with any kind of consistency.

    So if you are just looking at it based on games JJP has been very successful. As a business it's been a borderline disaster.

    #52 5 years ago
    Quoted from chad:

    Like the "phone" on belt.

    I’m pretty sure that was a Fanny pack!
    LOL

    #53 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bublehead:

    CGC is a big huge lurking unkown in Stern’s gameplan IMO

    LOL CGC is an easy read for Stern they know the games they will build and most likely know the numbers they are capable of building

    #54 5 years ago

    Just remember, they made two times the number of Lethal Weapon 3s than MET, arguably Stern’s greatest hit.

    Pinball is popular again but not like the old days. So why are you all arguing?

    #55 5 years ago

    Using a good portion of contract employees on their assembly line has worked well for Stern over the years, I wonder how many of the "325" are Stern employees and how many are contract employees? Having a lot of contract employees allows Stern to ratchet production up and down without being burdened by a lot of fixed payroll costs. Good to see that they are doing so well.

    #56 5 years ago
    Quoted from JY64:

    Panzer do you really think JJP is crushing it really?

    TOYS!

    #58 5 years ago
    Quoted from Christian43:

    I’m pretty sure that was a Fanny pack!
    LOL

    It was a phone on a fanny pack. All we needed was a pair of Zubaz for the wrestler trifecta circa 2000.

    #59 5 years ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    So if you are just looking at it based on games JJP has been very successful. As a business it's been a borderline disaster.

    Sure. Stern has decades of experience. JJP is new. Pros and cons for both. Stern has proven (safe?) designs and quality, with an established brand. JJP has fresh/young blood gaining experience each year. Young designers with out-there designs. Sure, some ideas did not work. But JJP is also way more transparent. We know what failed design-wise because JJP opted to show us their design early.

    I like all companies and hope they all stay afloat. It offers us more choices.

    If I'm allowed to stir the pot a little though; JJP's design is risky and innovative. I mean, a rocking ship upper playfield? Name another innovation that bold in the last 5 years?

    #60 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bendit:

    Name another innovation that bold in the last 5 years?

    The bowling alley in TBL...too bad that company folded.

    #61 5 years ago
    Quoted from flashinstinct:

    The bowling alley in TBL...too bad that company folded.

    Yeah, well, I have no idea. As far as I'm concerned, TBL is a myth. I have never seen one in the wild. They are as rare as Pope shit.

    #62 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bendit:

    Sure. Stern has decades of experience. JJP is new. Pros and cons for both. Stern has proven (safe?) designs and quality, with an established brand. JJP has fresh/young blood gaining experience each year. Young designers with out-there designs. Sure, some ideas did not work. But JJP is also way more transparent. We know what failed design-wise because JJP opted to show us their design early.
    I like all companies and hope they all stay afloat. It offers us more choices.
    If I'm allowed to stir the pot a little though; JJP's design is risky and innovative. I mean, a rocking ship upper playfield? Name another innovation that bold in the last 5 years?

    Transparent? Were they transparent about shipping WOZ to new money people while slowly filling the preorders? Were they transparent when TH looked like it wasn't going to happen and they were about to tank? JJP also isn't showing us what they think is an early design. They are showing us that is supposed to be the final product, they just keep screwing it up and having to go back and remove things.

    I'm also not sure what you mean by young fresh blood. If you mean Eric, sure that's true. But stern has Elwin and a whole host of new programmers. Otherwise who are JJP's young fresh blood movement?

    JJP has made some really good games, I've owned all of them but POTC. I'm far from a JJP hater, but I am a realist about how things have played out over the years.

    #63 5 years ago

    OMG you can't be serious JJP announced the company formation Jan 2011 that's nearly 8 years now new I don't think so

    #64 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bendit:

    Sure. I mean, a rocking ship upper playfield? Name another innovation that bold in the last 5 years?

    https://clips.twitch.tv/RamshackleTemperedFriseePRChase

    #65 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bendit:

    Name another innovation that bold in the last 5 years?

    Yeah, really. Nothing else so bold.

    https://www.multimorphic.com/

    -2
    #66 5 years ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    Transparent? Were they transparent about shipping WOZ to new money people while slowly filling the preorders?

    I mean about their designs. It would be safer for them not to show videos of the work-in-progress. That's all I mean.

    Quoted from jgentry:

    I'm also not sure what you mean by young fresh blood. If you mean Eric, sure that's true.

    Yes.

    Quoted from JY64:

    you can't be serious JJP announced the company formation Jan 2011 that's nearly 8 years now new I don't think so

    Yes. But how long as Stern (and its previous companies) have been operating? I'm just comparing.

    #67 5 years ago

    I like pinball and glad people are working hard to make big dumb pinball machines for me to play. Go pinball!

    #68 5 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    Yeah, really. Nothing else so bold.

    Meh. I've played it. It's "ok". But it's not a pure pinball machine. I am talking about something in the real-world that must comply with the current laws of physics. Know what I mean? Not software, where anything can happen. So I'm talking about mechs that really exist.

    Other examples:

    Houdini has a ball that's shot across the whole playfield.

    The Hobbit has 2 coils per drop target, allowing automatic up and downs on each single target.

    That kind of stuff...

    #69 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bendit:

    I mean about their designs. It would be safer for them not to show videos of the work-in-progress. That's all I mean.

    Yes.

    Yes. But how long as Stern (and its previous companies) have been operating? I'm just comparing.

    Not sure what you are talking about. They do not show video's of anything until the final product is unveiled. Their goal is 100% to show you the game, take a small deposit, ship you the game ASAP. They just have had some mechanical or BOM issues that forced them to remove things. One designer does not equal much new blood to me. Eric did an awesome job with POTC. The game is really good considering he got stuck with a flat license that didn't even offer them the main characters voice. I think he out performed what most designers could do.

    #70 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bendit:

    Meh. I've played it. It's "ok". But it's not a pure pinball machine. I am talking about something in the real-world that must comply with the current laws of physics. Know what I mean? Not software, where anything can happen. So I'm talking about mechs that really exist.

    So your definition of "innovation" is "new toys" .. or even "really REALLY old toys" (controlled drop targets, good lord!), and the catapult ball thrower from Medieval Madness without a wireform. HOT SHIT!

    Lexy has a physical 8 ball rotating lock toy. Is that more your speed? The P3 system has a trough that can hold 20+ balls and launch them from multiple locations. How's that for "Innovation"?

    You say you've played the P3, then you say a bunch of garbage that proves that to be a lie. It's absolutely a pure pinball machine, with real mechs and real physics. There's a section of the Playfield that is a dynamic display instead of a painted piece of wood, but that doesn't detract from the actual pinball experience, it just adds to it. With, you know, innovation.

    #71 5 years ago

    Look how difficult its been for JJP and their resources they have now. I love their games too but to JG's point they have been FAR from transparent and I've been a Woz pre order from day one. Maybe they will hit it out of the park with Wonka and Toy Story, they need it all to come together.

    Like any business, its difficult to scale up and manage and time it correctly.

    As for Deeproot, its whole lot easier to spend money designing games than it is actually producing and shipping games.

    When you think about the 325 Stern employees it takes to make 12,000 pinball machines i don't figure how DR is gonna be able to pull it off. I can't see how it happens zero to sixty like that in pinball.

    2019 is HUGE for pinball.

    #72 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bendit:

    Meh. I've played it. It's "ok". But it's not a pure pinball machine. I am talking about something in the real-world that must comply with the current laws of physics. Know what I mean? Not software, where anything can happen. So I'm talking about mechs that really exist.
    Other examples:
    Houdini has a ball that's shot across the whole playfield.
    The Hobbit has 2 coils per drop target, allowing automatic up and downs on each single target.
    That kind of stuff...

    Literally at TPF when Houdini was revealed Stern had its new AS that was launching balls across the playfield. TH is also not the first game with controlled drops like that. Jack just claimed it was for some reason. The ship on POTC is really freaking cool. I think the cannon is pretty underwhelming for such a big build up. But the ship overall with the cannon is a great feature, no denying that. Have you not played a GB premium? No credit for magna slings or a ramp that goes underneath the playfield?

    P3 is crazy filled with innovation. I have no clue how Gerry managed to do some of that stuff. I played one about a month ago and it has really come a long way. A few years ago it was pretty meh to me. Now it's pretty darn fun.

    #73 5 years ago

    Innovation is a buzzword that usually = "shitty pinball machine that's trying too hard."

    We don't need innovation. We just need fun, reliable pinball machines churned out on a regular basis at a price operators and homebuyers can afford.

    Gee...who is doing that?

    #74 5 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    You say you've played the P3, then you say a bunch of garbage that proves that to be a lie.

    Calm down. Calling me a liar now? I played it at the Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown, I believe 3 years ago.

    Quoted from epthegeek:

    and the catapult ball thrower from Medieval Madness without a wireform. HOT SHIT!

    It's not that it's "hot". The design is risky, but the reward is awesome to look at. I am talking about physics. A ball traveling in a wire-form requires less finicky design adjustments than the alternative. That's all I am saying.

    Quoted from epthegeek:

    So your definition of "innovation" is "new toys"

    The rocking ship is not a toy. It's an upper-playfield that's integral to the game. No?

    Quoted from jgentry:

    Have you not played a GB premium?

    Yes! That's a good example of cool and risky design. But with risk comes critique also. Some people hated those slings?

    I am not partial to any company! I just saying with risky designs potentially also come failures...

    #75 5 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    Yeah, really. Nothing else so bold.
    https://www.multimorphic.com/

    P3 is a cool concept but I'm not sure how well the games are selling. I don't think P3 games feel like pinball to most fans of the game. The system itself is very costly and changing out just the back 1/3 of the game only allows for so many possibilities. The lack of licensed titles has also hurt the platform in my opinion. I hope the platform sticks around long term and keeps getting better.

    #76 5 years ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    P3 is a cool concept but I'm not sure how well the games are selling. I don't think P3 games feel like pinball to most fans of the game. The system itself is very costly and changing out just the back 1/3 of the game only allows for so many possibilities. The lack of licensed titles has also hurt the platform in my opinion. I hope the platform sticks around long term and keeps getting better.

    His comment was about bold innovation, not sales. That's all I'm pointing out - the P3 is innovative as hell. All throughout. Like the end result or not.

    #77 5 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    We don't need innovation. We just need fun, reliable pinball machines

    I agree to a certain extent. But with that mentality, games from the 90's would have been the end of the line? Don't get me wrong, I own games from the 90s and early 2000s and some are my favorites. You're right, a nice flowing game that's well design, even with basic safe design is rewarding to play.

    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    P3 is a cool concept but I'm not sure how well the games are selling.

    I've never seen one in the wild. Don't get me wrong, I own a Virtual Pinball setup, so I am not against video-pinball at its purest form. P3 ends up being an open middle playfield though...

    Quoted from epthegeek:

    His comment was about bold innovation, not sales.

    Yes. Innovation in the real-world, not like say, Pinball FX3 tables from Zen software (video game). And you still called me a liar. You hurt my delicate feelings...

    #78 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bendit:

    Yes. Innovation in the real-world, not like say, Pinball FX3 tables from Zen software (video game). And you still called me a liar. You hurt my delicate feelings...

    You're an intolerable dolt. The p3 is not a video game.

    19
    #79 5 years ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    P3 is a cool concept but I'm not sure how well the games are selling.

    Feel free to ask me anything. I read pinside but don't post too much unless it's in a feature announcement or product support thread. If something's confidential I can't share it, but otherwise I'm pretty much an open book. We currently have a very small team, very small MFG capacity, and laughably low budget, but so far sales have outpaced manufacturing, and we're working to increase our MFG capacity in the very near future. Most of our sales so far are to consumers who appreciate the one-machine many games paradigm, allowing them to take up a single spot in their house and build a game library (like the video game console model but for physical pinball). As we get out more and more game content (games and playfield modules), you'll probably see more and more talk about it here. What we've seen so far is that the more vocal pinheads on pinside generally seem to value theme and world-under-glass a little more than mechanical functionality and gameplay, and we started out with a focus on mechanical functionality, modularity, and gameplay variety (to interest the whole family). Our worlds will continue merging though. Stay tuned!

    Anyway, I know this isn't a P3 thread; so I'll bow out. Hit me up in a PM or separate thread for more info.

    - Gerry
    https://www.multimorphic.com

    #80 5 years ago
    Quoted from Christian43:

    I’m pretty sure that was a Fanny pack!
    LOL

    Hand set, cordless .

    #81 5 years ago
    Quoted from Da-Shaker:

    I love Deadpool and haven't had any problems with it, not sure what your problem is. You can also go spend an extra 2000 grand on JJP or CGC and have twice as many issues. Where are you seeing the quality differences?

    "But, but, but JJP pins ooze sophistication. You can feel the quality. Makes Sterns feel like cardboard boxes. A bargain at $10k."

    At least, so says the JJP shills. Why they feel the need to constantly justify and defend their ultra-expensive purchases is odd. Seems like an insecurity thing.

    I've got no beef with JJP, but the way their fanboys knock Stern all the time is uncool. Why can't more people be fans of all pinball?

    We're experiencing a wonderful resurgence in pinball which I hope continues for as long as it can.

    #82 5 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    His comment was about bold innovation, not sales. That's all I'm pointing out - the P3 is innovative as hell. All throughout. Like the end result or not.

    Yeah, absolutely.

    Quoted from gstellenberg:

    Feel free to ask me anything. I read pinside but don't post too much unless it's in a feature announcement or product support thread. If something's confidential I can't share it, but otherwise I'm pretty much an open book. We currently have a very small team, very small MFG capacity, and laughably low budget, but so far sales have outpaced manufacturing, and we're working to increase our MFG capacity in the very near future. Most of our sales so far are to consumers who appreciate the one-machine many games paradigm, allowing them to take up a single spot in their house and build a game library (like the video game console model but for physical pinball). As we get out more and more game content (games and playfield modules), you'll probably see more and more talk about it here. What we've seen so far is that the more vocal pinheads on pinside generally seem to value theme and world-under-glass a little more than mechanical functionality and gameplay, and we started out with a focus on mechanical functionality, modularity, and gameplay variety (to interest the whole family). Our worlds will continue merging though. Stay tuned!
    Anyway, I know this isn't a P3 thread; so I'll bow out. Hit me up in a PM or separate thread for more info.
    - Gerry
    https://www.multimorphic.com

    That's great to hear regarding sales and about the future of the platform, sounds very promising. Looking forward to hearing more in the months and years ahead.

    #83 5 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    You're an intolerable dolt. The p3 is not a video game.

    I know it's not. Just pulling your 'lastic. Do you own a p3 by any chance? Not that there's anything wrong with it.

    Ok, to be clear so you don't have to step up your level of insults, I was discussing 100% genuine pinball machine design, not hybrids. Again, nothing wrong with hybrids if that's your thing. "Stern pinball sales" is how this started. Stern being a pinball machine maker.

    Also, do you consider the rocking ship to be a toy? I am really asking.

    (or are we done here, I somehow ended up on your blacklist for whatever reason, not sure what I did to you)

    #84 5 years ago
    Quoted from epthegeek:

    You're an intolerable dolt

    Kudos for a good use of the words “intolerable” and “dolt”.

    #85 5 years ago
    Quoted from IdahoRealtor:

    "But, but, but JJP pins ooze sophistication. You can feel the quality. Makes Sterns feel like cardboard boxes. A bargain at $10k."
    At least, so says the JJP shills. Why they feel the need to constantly justify and defend their ultra-expensive purchases is odd. Seems like an insecurity thing.
    I've got no beef with JJP, but the way their fanboys knock Stern all the time is uncool. Why can't more people be fans of all pinball?
    We're experiencing a wonderful resurgence in pinball which I hope continues for as long as it can.

    There's also the Stern fanboys knocking JJP regullary, going into JJP owners threads to bash their games, and acting like they are on the brink of going out of business every day. It's old.

    #86 5 years ago
    Quoted from gstellenberg:

    Feel free to ask me anything. I read pinside but don't post too much unless it's in a feature announcement or product support thread. If something's confidential I can't share it, but otherwise I'm pretty much an open book. We currently have a very small team, very small MFG capacity, and laughably low budget, but so far sales have outpaced manufacturing, and we're working to increase our MFG capacity in the very near future. Most of our sales so far are to consumers who appreciate the one-machine many games paradigm, allowing them to take up a single spot in their house and build a game library (like the video game console model but for physical pinball). As we get out more and more game content (games and playfield modules), you'll probably see more and more talk about it here. What we've seen so far is that the more vocal pinheads on pinside generally seem to value theme and world-under-glass a little more than mechanical functionality and gameplay, and we started out with a focus on mechanical functionality, modularity, and gameplay variety (to interest the whole family). Our worlds will continue merging though. Stay tuned!
    Anyway, I know this isn't a P3 thread; so I'll bow out. Hit me up in a PM or separate thread for more info.
    - Gerry
    https://www.multimorphic.com

    I played the one that Larry at Flipnoutpinball has and it was a ton of fun. I think you are getting real close to having a fairly marketable game there. It really can do a lot of crazy things that I never would have thought possible.

    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    There's also the Stern fanboys knocking JJP regullary, going into JJP owners threads to bash their games, and acting like they are on the brink of going out of business every day. It's old.

    Absolutely, and both sides sound equally dumb when they do it.

    -4
    #87 5 years ago

    Wow what bs here. As some one who would be only a home use only buyer, what would I buy?
    A game that splits at the seams, coil stops that wear out after 50 games, balls that have to be replaced before I can play it,has only half the game code when released, and a PF that get beaten up in not time?
    but gee they made 12,000 games this year. good for them.

    But I want something that has a build quality that will last 20 years, not a throwaway game.

    Nothing against Stern, but how many new games have people bought and then sold because the game code was incomplete?

    #88 5 years ago
    Quoted from wdennie:

    Nothing against Stern, but how many new games have people bought and then sold because the game code was incomplete?

    Three?

    -1
    #89 5 years ago

    Just from the posts that I've read:
    Star Wars
    Star trek
    Ghostbusters
    Dead Pool
    Kiss

    lets ad some more:
    Metallica
    the Avengers
    The walking Dead

    #90 5 years ago

    Na. I think the code was ok and deep enough for initial release.

    I did find the code on Guardians to appear limited though (initial release).

    To be honest, I have limited play on both these titles, Guardians jumped at me though.

    #91 5 years ago
    Quoted from wdennie:

    Just from the posts that I've read:
    Star Wars
    Star trek
    Ghostbusters
    Dead Pool
    Kiss

    Cool, so you read some posts about pinsiders whining and you just assumed it was true. GOTG, BM66, and XMEN were the games that shipped with really poor code. Oddly none of those are on your list most of what you listed shipped in pretty good to very good shape code wise.

    Quoted from wdennie:

    Wow what bs here. As some one who would be only a home use only buyer, what would I buy?
    A game that splits at the seams, coil stops that wear out after 50 games, balls that have to be replaced before I can play it,has only half the game code when released, and a PF that get beaten up in not time?
    but gee they made 12,000 games this year. good for them.
    But I want something that has a build quality that will last 20 years, not a throwaway game.
    Nothing against Stern, but how many new games have people bought and then sold because the game code was incomplete?

    Why would you buy a HUO pin with any of those issues from any company unless you just wanted it cheap? You do realize that any quick search can show you a game from all of the companies that was NIB and had a ton of issues, or have you just been brainwashed to thinking this is a stern problem? Did you click on any of the routed game threads showing how sterns hold up after 30,000 plays when properly cared for?

    #92 5 years ago
    Quoted from wdennie:

    Wow what bs here. As some one who would be only a home use only buyer, what would I buy?
    A game that splits at the seams, coil stops that wear out after 50 games, balls that have to be replaced before I can play it,has only half the game code when released, and a PF that get beaten up in not time?
    but gee they made 12,000 games this year. good for them.
    But I want something that has a build quality that will last 20 years, not a throwaway game.
    Nothing against Stern, but how many new games have people bought and then sold because the game code was incomplete?

    Such a hater. Not a single Stern in your collection I see. Your loss, dude.

    If you're ever in Concord, CA come visit my location. Many Sterns with thousands of plays that still look and play great. Must be a miracle.

    #93 5 years ago
    Quoted from IdahoRealtor:

    Not a single Stern in your collection I see.

    He does. TSPP and Dracula.

    To be fair, TSPP does have awesome code.

    #94 5 years ago
    Quoted from wdennie:

    But I want something that has a build quality that will last 20 years, not a throwaway game.

    I think Stern is smart to move towards less user serviceability and a shorter lifetime model for their games. Especially since it doesn't seem to affect their sales.

    Edit: That being said, the best way for a game to stay in service is for the manufacturer to stay in business to offer replacement parts. Short of that, the pinball community is great and always seems to find a way to keep games running.

    #95 5 years ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    Cool, so you read some posts about pinsiders whining and you just assumed it was true. GOTG, BM66, and XMEN were the games that shipped with really poor code. Oddly none of those are on your list most of what you listed shipped in pretty good to very good shape code wise.

    Why would you buy a HUO pin with any of those issues from any company unless you just wanted it cheap? You do realize that any quick search can show you a game from all of the companies that was NIB and had a ton of issues, or have you just been brainwashed to thinking this is a stern problem? Did you click on any of the routed game threads showing how sterns hold up after 30,000 plays when properly cared for?

    Not a Stern hater, but I won't be buy a new stern, because I just Don't find them very exciting.
    Not talking about how they shipped.
    Or are there just a bunch whiners here?

    #96 5 years ago
    Quoted from Bendit:

    He does. TSPP and Dracula.
    To be fair, TSPP does have awesome code.

    Dose Sega and Data East count?

    #97 5 years ago
    Quoted from wdennie:

    Not a Stern hater, but I won't be buy a new stern, because I just Don't find them very exciting.
    Not talking about how they shipped.
    Or are there just a bunch whiners here?

    Fair enough, I guess? This is a thread about Stern reporting that their business has grown substantially. What did your post contribute to the conversation?

    #98 5 years ago
    Quoted from fosaisu:

    Fair enough, I guess? This is a thread about Stern reporting that their business has grown substantially. What did your post contribute to the conversation?

    Apparently nothing.
    If you want to be the biggest, then you should be the best.

    #99 5 years ago

    I have Bally/Willms, Stern, CGC, Spooky, JJP....

    I hope they all have continued success.

    #100 5 years ago
    Quoted from wdennie:

    Not a Stern hater, but I won't be buy a new stern, because I just Don't find them very exciting.
    Not talking about how they shipped.
    Or are there just a bunch whiners here?

    Have you played those games that you mentioned. Most have an absolute ton of code in them and most are still getting updates and polishes from stern.

    There are 135 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.

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