I'd love to see some pictures of your method if you've got any on hand.

What's the one in the middle? That looks the best.

There seem to always be large variations in Warm White bulbs from different batches.

Sometimes you get a batch and quietly scream YES! to yourself, only to have the next batch be too green or blue.

Sucks.

Just to jump in for all.

Warm white production in low cost diodes from Singapore and most all factories have been a mess for about 8 months.
Diode makers are taking the equipment and employee time to making more profitable products....
Why make something for $.50, when the same resources can make something for $1.00.
The demand for newer, brighter, etc, from auto and all other industries is causing this.
So factories either put less attention and effort into this, using lower paying entry employees,
or equipment, etc...
The answer from overseas is "pay 30% more".
The answer from the hobby, "no"

Working on it here...different factories, even some new production from Taiwan.

We currently pay extra to hand sort overseas, but its a humans eyes, working for pennies an hour,
and they tire.

So, there are shortages, changes, etc, on the supply side.

We certainly know, that everyone wants a perfect Kelvin, a 100% matched ideal warm white.

Threads like this help share this info.
Its important for me to share that I believe all LED vendors know, and are also working on it.

From the buyers side, understanding this is important too.
Many times the variance seen is not seen in a games actual after install, but indeed, 3 pops with
contained plastics should match. Sometimes, one needs variation, because the plastics in a game vary themselves or are repro.

The toughest thing that is hard is a customer that wants a tight Kelvin match, on all bulbs.
(in fact, if you send an email for a specific Kelvin, we run and hide under our desks in fear!)

We also have done extensive testing with pinheads, and warm white bulbs, and find that we
see this hue, all slightly different. We shoot for a light grey or light yellow hue, but powder today and final product can produce as Op has shared a tinge of green, pink, or darker yellow.

So, in conclusion, it may be best as one installs to watch the hue while installing.
Not freak out with scathing emails, and know sadly, this disparity...batch to batch....can be an issue.

(mostly in single LEDs, and the 4's which are low cost 3285 diodes).

Better consistency are 2 LED, (we carry exclusive), or 2 SMD Twin 2835, then a 1 SMD.

To avoid all this....try Sunlight!
or simply look at the final look upon install, noting the possible need to change a bulb to another.

Bump to put this recipe to the top of the heap.

Very nice!

Uh.. Why do you need non-ghosting on an EM machine?

Sorry if it's an idiot question, but my knowledge about EMs is very limited - I thought the switches in the relay packs were either open or closed. Where's the trace come from?

Will this help?

flux-unlimited_(resized).jpg

It's the 60Hz AC that causes the flicker.

The stray flashes of faint light on LEDs is induced current from the lamp wires laying along side the solenoid and relay wires within the tightly wrapped wire looms (same electrical principle that makes a transformer function). It is often most noticeable on match and ball lights in the head when you are watching someone else play.

The capacitors that are part of non-ghosting LEDs that helps smooth the pulsating DC for GI, also helps the led not light immediately with the quick pulses of power.

So super cheap LEDs which are nothing more than an led and current limiting resistor will obviously flash 60 times a second. Causing the strobe light effect as you eyes track the ball in motion.

AC/DC type that have a bridge distinctly flash 120 times a second. Which many humans may not notice.

Premium non-ghosting tend to not flash as much due to the added capacitor which may or may not, completely eliminate the 120 pulses a second of DC power.

Right now I only have 2 EMs. They are both Bally of similar vintage, Bon Voyage 1974 and Monte Carlo 1973. They behave very differently as far as the LED insert flickering. In the BV, you can just barely see it. I didn't even notice it at first. On the MC it is the exact opposite - very noticeable.

You could get away with the regular LEDs in the BV, just barely. No way in the MC, it is too annoying during game play. As you said the non-ghosting LEDs get rid of the flicker, I did test this. But as an alternative I have been soldering some 1/4 W 470 Ohm resistors across the lamp sockets. That trick seems to work for the EM like it does in the SS machines, at least for my testing. Its more of a pain but cheaper

What I am not sure of that would take more testing: Is it just the nature of each of these 2 machines to behave the way that they do? Is it the way the wire looms are organized and routed? Or is it some other difference in the machine? And, would it be the same for every BV and MC, or is it a situation where each machine is different on its own for whatever reasons? Lots of unanswered questions.

I am not too familiar with EM pinballs and their circuitry.

However, rectifying the GI current would multiply the frequency of the pulses by two: you would get 120 Hz to the LEDs from a 60Hz transformer.
However, the voltage will be increased by 1.4 times (DC voltage = 1.4 x AC voltage), so you have to make sure your LEDs can handle additional voltage.
Finally, putting a large polarized capacitor on the GI circuit, will turn the wavy rectified current into something almost Direct (flat).

It may be worth trying on a bench and see the resulting behavior of the LEDs.

Yves

Just to make clear: I don't see any actual flicker in the sense of a constant flicker like 60 Hz. And the GI is fine with the LEDs. The problem is with insert lights with LEDs when they are not lit. They will slightly light up when various things happen on the playfield, like the ball hitting the pop bumpers, various targets, etc.,in coordination with those events. Some sort of induced current in the wires caused by the solenoids energizing I presume.

You rectify an AC signal and your getting 1.4 time more DC voltage. Don't think so.
You may be thinking of the 1.4v drops across the diodes. Your plused DC after a bridge is not greater. The Vpk x.707 or Vp-p x .3535. Is your RMS value.

I'm a big fan of Ablaze (Pinball Life) warm white frosted non-ghosting 1 SMD lamps. I use them in EM and early SS pop bumpers, backglasses, basically anywhere I don't see the bare bulb. They're the best warm white hue I've found. Most others have a trace of green or pink to my eyes. Pinball Life's site is temporarily closed for vacation, but here's a google cache of the exact product:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_eZv8HNWy8YJ:www.pinballlife.com/index.php%3Fp%3Dproduct%26id%3D3211+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

PBL back from vacation! Direct link:
http://www.pinballlife.com/index.php?p=product&id=3211

I think he's referring to when you rectify AC voltage and add a cap, you get 1.4x of the voltage DC (maybe 1.3x the voltage under heavy load)

bridge1_(resized).jpg

Yup, when you add a full wave rectifier, you get a little more output.
In the end, though, its the cap across the DC output that reduces the flicker.
The non ghosting led's add another cap inside the case, more caps, less flicker.
Thats why power supplies have primary caps before the regulator, secondary caps after the regulator, and usually the ceramic glitch eaters at the chip power lead. all in an effort to smooth out that flicker we all love so much.

I never heard of getting more? You have an AC sine wave it goes through two diodes so without the cap you will get identical positive pulsing (DC) peaks minus the drops of the diodes. The cap fills in the gaps between peaks to make it almost pure DC but reading that warning about voltage going high??

Got an example??
Need to learn something every day!

Even tell me how to see that with a scope and meter on machine would be great.

I slapped an assortment of Comet bulbs in my Klondike and they all work good, look good, and make me happy every time I turn it on.I haven't noticed any problems.

You just jinxed yourself, you found your problem. Now you're going to have a bunch of cranky old guys yelling at you for putting in LEDs. There's your problem.

I'm a cranky old guy that loves to experiment.Edison caught hell too.

Now Come visit me!

Im a cranky old guy that lives near Edisons Winter Home!

Come visit! The lab is Original!

There is no magic here, it is all in the way a/c voltage is measured using RMS. If you look at 110volts coming out of your wall outlet, it will actually be a sine wave of about 310 volts peak to peak. So why not call it 310 volts instead of calling it 110 volts? That is a more difficult answer that I won't get into. The point is that when you rectify 110 volts a/c, you get 155 volts DC. You are not gaining anything though, it is just a figment of the math involved.

rms-600x241_(resized).jpg
rectbr2_(resized).png

Thanks for your replies. I guess I am getting old and just never heard it presented that way. I kept thinking pk-pk like 18 vac off transformer that gets bridged to 6.3v. and or 120 v AC pk-pk that would be 42v. Not math trickery just a dummy that wasnt thinking as I should have. Carry on.

Still trying to enjoy LEDs myself. Just purchased a bunch from Art just before he sold. I must say I like them but lucky for me the pins I wanted to start with were Gottlieb the easiest out of them all to do. Everyone else seems to have issues. Like putting square peg in a round hole.

Thanks! This is my excuse to try them.

I just received a backglass made by bgrestro. The artwork was spot on, but I was a bit underwhelmed with the muted colors when I turned the machine on. As recommended by NicoVolta (and his Black Friday alert), I put warm whites LEDs behind the artwork, but I left the standard bulbs above and below the score reels. It looks great! I'm very happy with Steve's work, and Nico's advice.

Are there any domed LEDs that fit narrow spaces? I have an EM where some of the lamps under the lane guides sit very low, and the bulb part actually has to enter the hole for the base to engage the bayonet. The hole is .413" in diameter (Z drill) which accomodates 44 size lamps just fine, but the LEDs I've seen have a relatively large plastic collar that gets in the way.

I got a bag of Comet twin 2835's and while their collars are pretty thin, they still didn't fit these extra small holes, the bulbs were about .015″ too large. I ended up filing the collars smaller and was able to use thus modified bulbs.

Or grind down that collar a bit

If this is what you were using, about $5 on Ebay.

Ive done both, depending on the artwork, and bulb used......

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