(Topic ID: 205703)

Start Up Troubleshooting: I think I killed my Sing Along

By spclwhenlit

6 years ago


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  • 21 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Billc479
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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Sing Along Start relay (resized).jpg
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#1 6 years ago

I had an old, dead Sing Along revived to the point where it was playing well and scoring accurately, but the 100's score reel was a little sluggish, so I disassembled it several times, and adjusted it's switches, without any improvement. After the last attempt, the machine is dead. No lights, not even the beginning of the start up sequence. The hold relay isn't pulling in, the score motor isn't turning, and so on.

I've compared the switch states in the "0", "1", and "9" positions to the adjacent score reels, and they look to me to be correct. So I'm not sure how I could have killed the machine via score reel switch adjustments, but that's all I can imagine. The pictures below show the switch states in the 0, 1, and 9 positions respectively. Can anybody confirm these are correct?

Any suggestions for other potential causes of what now appears to be a totally dead machine? I'm having a hard time believing it's related to switch adjustments on any of the relays, either on the bottom panel or in the backbox, as I haven't touched those. Maybe I'm just missing something that should be obvious?

Thanks in advance for your feedback!

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#2 6 years ago

Crap - because of the way pinside orders attachments, the pictures shown are in the following order: top pic is in 9 position, middle is in 1, bottom in 0. Sorry for the confusion.

#3 6 years ago

That's one powerful score reel you have there!

Have you checked the control bank?

#4 6 years ago

Did you blow a fuse perhaps?

#5 6 years ago

I’d check the small simple things 1st..is it plugged in/blow a breaker? Check the fuses under the play field. After that, I’d check the start relay...

#6 6 years ago

Do you have any credits on the machine?

#7 6 years ago

Yep, good suggestions. I had already checked the following: checked the (3) fuses near the coin door, and both fuses on the bottom panel. There are credits on the game, and the credit unit switches had been closed to set on freeplay. Cleaned and checked the coin door connector. Checked the start button switch for continuity. Checked the coin door slam switch: it had been bypassed and the switch wires soldered together. Checked the plumb bob tilt and "rolling ball" tilt switches. Checked for any loose wires, both in the backbox and on the bottom panel relays and reset bank.

#8 6 years ago
Quoted from spclwhenlit:

After the last attempt, the machine is dead. No lights, not even the beginning of the start up sequence. The hold relay isn't pulling in, the score motor isn't turning, and so on.

In this game you need the SB/Start relay to fire to get power to the transformer. Not much else is going to happen until SB fires. Here is the relevant part of the schematic. Beware that this part of the game runs at line voltage (115 or 230 VAC) so I'd recommend unplugging the game entirely before investigating.

Sing Along Start relay (resized).jpgSing Along Start relay (resized).jpg

The SB relay can fire through the replay button or the coin chutes. I've highlighted the Replay button path here. If either of the coin chutes works that would simplify the problem some. If not you need to work through the entire circuit looking for the fault that's causing the open circuit.

But remember to unplug the game before poking around.

/Mark

#9 6 years ago

Thanks Mark! Assuming the problem was caused by something I did by accident, I haven't focused on the reset bank or SB relay because I literally haven't touched it. But I've just about gotten to the point where I can't think of anything else. And although I probably should have known, I didn't realize the SB relay actually had to activate in order to get power to the transformer. I'll check it out and post what I find.

#10 6 years ago

Well, I've lifted the bottom panel and checked all the reset bank switches, and all the other relay switches. They all seem to be adjusted ok - when I depress the relays every switch changes it's state from open to closed or closed to open. I even tested outlet voltage (123V+) and input voltage at the transformer and at the "far" side of the fuse holder next to the transformer, also at 123V.

I know I'm missing something, and I bet it's something simple. So back to my theory that the problem relates to my repeated score reel adjustments. Can any of the score reel switches, if mis-adjusted, actually prevent a machine from even beginning the start up sequence? This machine is currently dead - and I mean dead - no lights, no relays clicking, no score motor turning, nothing.

Likewise, can a mis-adjusted tilt or slam switch actually prevent any sort of start up sequence beginning?

#11 6 years ago

What happens when you manually push in the hold relay?

#12 6 years ago

When you checked the fuses did you look at them or remove them and check them with a DMM ?

#13 6 years ago

To directly answer your question, no a score reel cannot stop a machine from its start up sequence.

Since you were in the backbox, look and see if there's a tilt switch or slam tilt switch in there. I think some machines had them in the head, or an operator could install one if they felt it necessary. It would be in series with the other tilt/slam switches.

#14 6 years ago
Quoted from PinballAir:

When you checked the fuses did you look at them or remove them and check them with a DMM ?

^^^This^^^

#15 6 years ago
Quoted from spclwhenlit:

Crap - because of the way pinside orders attachments, the pictures shown are in the following order: top pic is in 9 position, middle is in 1, bottom in 0. Sorry for the confusion.

Just edit your original post and reorder image numbers.

#16 6 years ago

Ok, maybe some progress now! Now when I manually activate the hold relay, the machine powers up, the score motor runs and continually steps down the credit unit (and keeps going, I assume because the credit unit switches are bent for "free play"). The score reels do not reset.

(And yes, I pulled and checked all the fuses with a DMM).

What next?

#17 6 years ago
Quoted from spclwhenlit:

Well, I've lifted the bottom panel and checked all the reset bank switches, and all the other relay switches.

What about the switches in the red circuit from the schematic in post #8? Several of those switches aren't on relays.

Quoted from spclwhenlit:

Likewise, can a mis-adjusted tilt or slam switch actually prevent any sort of start up sequence beginning?

Yes, absolutely. Some of them are in the red circuit from post #8 above.

Quoted from spclwhenlit:

Ok, maybe some progress now! Now when I manually activate the hold relay, the machine powers up

Manually activating the R/Hold relay bypasses the Start relay and gets power to the transformer. So while that may get some things started the Start relay problem is probably still there. I don't know whether or how skipping the Start relay might mess up your reset sequence.

Quoted from spclwhenlit:

So back to my theory that the problem relates to my repeated score reel adjustments.

One of the switches in the Start relay circuit is in the credit unit, which is close to the score reels. Could that have been affected somehow?

#18 6 years ago

If the hold relay isn't locking on, it's one of the slam switches or anti-cheat switches. The slam switches should be closed, and the weighted anti-cheat switches should be open. I just had a similar problem on a "Dimension". A wire to the motor board's slam switch became disconnected. Does "Sing Along" have a power switch under the cabinet, or is it the old "rap the bottom of the cabinet to shut it off" type?
If it's the latter, make sure the little rod that lifts the switch on the motor board isn't jammed upward, keeping the switch open.

#19 6 years ago

Wow, success at last, I think. The machine now powers up, resets the score reels to zero, decrements the credit unit, and loads the ball into the trough. Game play is normal including ball count and game over. So keep your fingers crossed.

For the benefit of those that offered suggestions, and anybody else facing a similar problem, here are the other steps I went thru to ultimately fix the problem:

1. I removed the playfield hoping to help isolate the problem, but also so that I could pull out the bottom panel. For me, trying to inspect and adjust reset bank switches is about impossible without pulling the bottom panel out. I just rested it across the side rails.
2. The only switches I cleaned were on the SB start relay. I did not attempt to mess around with the large switch "under" the SB relay.
3. At "jrpinball's" suggestion, manually activating the R hold relay actually got the machine to begin the start up sequence, although the score reels weren't resetting.
4. On the schematic, relay DS controls the score reel run outs. That relay is mounted under the playfield. So I went ahead and reinstalled the playfield. Then the score reels reset properly to zero, but the ball wasn't being loaded from the outhole to the ball trough.
5. On the schematic it looked like relay O controls the outhole ball kicker. It should have 5 normally open switches. They looked good but I did adjust one switch slightly. The machine still would not load a ball.
6. From the schematic it looks like score motor switches 1C and 4C can affect relay O, so I checked and cleaned those switches. Still no ball loaded.
7. I thought maybe a tilt switch being closed would prevent a ball from being loaded, but maybe not prevent the rest of the start up sequence. So looking at the schematic, all four tilt switches are shown as having or-wh-red wires. Checking the tilt switch in the backbox (it has the correct wire color), it was bent closed. I probably did this myself while trying to track down the problem. Sure enough, opening that switch allowed the game to finish the start up sequence, including loading a ball to the trough.
8. So oddly enough, the problem was not related to the adjustments I made to the score reel switches; I haven't touched them since the machine "went dead". My best guess is that the SB relay had a dirty or slightly mis-adjusted switch. I compounded the problem when I closed the tilt switch in the backbox, although it only prevented the ball from being loaded, not the start up sequence from beginning.

Man, that's a lot of crap to go thru for a game that was working great yesterday. I hope this gives the group some feedback on all the excellent suggestions, and that it might help somebody else that has a similar issue with the same generation Gottliebs. Thanks for all the help!!

#20 6 years ago

I didn't think it had anything to do with what you did with the score reels. Just coincidence that it happened during your repair. Sometimes, just pulling a game away from the wall to service the backbox can nudge a few things out of adjustment. That's why it's important to keep the all the switch stack screws tightened. The trip bank wing nuts can work loose as well, and this can slightly alter the switch positions too.
Glad you got it working just in time for Christmas.

#21 6 years ago

Yay! Glad you got it working, and finding the tilt switch in the backbox was part of the problem. I feel like I do know something! Merry Christmas!

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