(Topic ID: 279878)

Start up problem Gottlieb snow queen

By Lambecka

1 year ago


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  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Lambecka
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#1 1 year ago

Starting the machine following happens.
Score motor starts , start relais activates en scorereels starting to reset. During reseting of scorereels machine stops and no further action.
Activated the start relais by hand and hold in place , machine completes reset all score reels on zero en bank resets to start first game.
So by starting by pushing button, the startrelais only activates for a moment, and sometimes, nothing happens.
Need some help

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from Lambecka:

During reseting of scorereels machine stops and no further action.

Which players' score reels do this?

#3 1 year ago

I do not have the schematic, but is there a normally-open lock-in switch on the S relay that is designed to keep the relay energized until the start sequence is completed?

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Which players' score reels do this?

All score reels do the same. Playing one player game or two, three etc

#5 1 year ago
Quoted from Runbikeskilee:

I do not have the schematic, but is there a normally-open lock-in switch on the S relay that is designed to keep the relay energized until the start sequence is completed?

Yes there is, but doesnt work. Keep the S relais activated by hand the machine resets komplete

#6 1 year ago

Check the SB armature, which will be the switch under the bank

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#7 1 year ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Check the SB armature, which will be the switch under the bank
[quoted image]

Already did, difficult to acces but switch works
Problem remains

#8 1 year ago

Check these sw. leading into SB, esp. the make/break on ZB.

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#9 1 year ago

If the Reset relay on the control bank (SB) fires during reset but the Control bank doesn't reset, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
Be careful because this circuit runs on 120 volts

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#11 1 year ago
Quoted from HowardR:

If the Reset relay on the control bank (SB) fires during reset but the Control bank doesn't reset, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires
http://www.planetimming.com/Pinball/troubleshooting/EM%20Troubleshooting.pdf
http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#features
Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156
Be careful because this circuit runs on 120 volts
[quoted image]

Howard , understand will check this circuit. But during reset the scorereels start trying to reset, but stops halfway. When holding the S start relais by hand, the score reels resets completely, SB fires and controlbank resets. This start relais S need to be energized during the reseting process, but is doesn,t It only fires for a moment and stops.

Albert

#12 1 year ago

Hi Albert
in post-1 and post-5, post-11 You write "Hold-in the S-Start-Relay in place" - (probably till the end of the Start / Reset) - well "the pin starts for a One-Player-Game". In post-1 You write "pressing the Replay-Button makes the S-Start-Relay to pull in ONLY for a moment".
Try it - toggle off, toggle-on the main power switch (so the ZB-First-Ball-Relay in the Control-Bank actuates) then do only press the armature on S-Relay for a turn of 120 degrees of the Score-Motor (NOT: For the complete Start-Up) --- is the pin nice and then completes the Starting on its own ?
See the JPG - "marked blue" --- at the end of the turn of 120 degrees the motor-2B cuts the Self-Hold-Circuitry of V- and S-Relay --- but earlier in the turn the (marked green) "motor-1A together with motor-3B AND THE PULLING S-RELAY (and switch on ZB-Relay) make the SB-Relay to actuate. Greetings Rolf

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#13 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Albert
in post-1 and post-5, post-11 You write "Hold-in the S-Start-Relay in place" - (probably till the end of the Start / Reset) - well "the pin starts for a One-Player-Game". In post-1 You write "pressing the Replay-Button makes the S-Start-Relay to pull in ONLY for a moment".
Try it - toggle off, toggle-on the main power switch (so the ZB-First-Ball-Relay in the Control-Bank actuates) then do only press the armature on S-Relay for a turn of 120 degrees of the Score-Motor (NOT: For the complete Start-Up) --- is the pin nice and then completes the Starting on its own ?
See the JPG - "marked blue" --- at the end of the turn of 120 degrees the motor-2B cuts the Self-Hold-Circuitry of V- and S-Relay --- but earlier in the turn the (marked green) "motor-1A together with motor-3B AND THE PULLING S-RELAY (and switch on ZB-Relay) make the SB-Relay to actuate. Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Rolf
Did exact as hou described. Switch of and on main switch and and manual operated the s switch sos that motor runs only 120 degrees.
After that the credit button is dead and nothing happens.
Then manual push the s relais and keep pushing till the machine all score reels on zero,control banks resets and you can start playing,without any problem.
After loosing the last ball trying to reset machine , but machine does not reset and motor only turn 120 degrees andscore reels stop to reset.
Did the following, reset the machine by pushing by hand the s relais, till its complete reset score reels on zero and ready to play.
Then switch of the machine and switch on again (score reels already on zero). Pushing the credit button and controlbank reset immediatly and you can play one or more player game.

So problems is only when machine needs to reset the score reels and S relais only activates during the 120 degres run of the score motor.
Checked the mentioned motor switches but they are ok

#14 1 year ago

Hi Albert
to be 100% sure I must ask
AA - You press the Replay-Button - the S-Relay pulls-in only short in time (less than have a second ? or stays pulling for a turn of 120 degrees ?) ? You have the fault "Reset does not work".
BB - You press the armature of S-Relay for a turn of 120 degrees - but You do have the fault "Reset does not work" ?
CC - You press the armature of S-Relay for a long time means until the Reset is completed ?
You can do AA or BB or CC ?

I am frustrated - I was hoping "You do BB" - but instead of "Reset does not work": SB-Relay actuates and then the Reset completes.
It is late - I must go to sleep - till tomorrow. Maybe another pinsider has a good idea ?. Greetings Rolf

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Albert
to be 100% sure I must ask
AA - You press the Replay-Button - the S-Relay pulls-in only short in time (less than have a second ? or stays pulling for a turn of 120 degrees ?) ? You have the fault "Reset does not work".
BB - You press the armature of S-Relay for a turn of 120 degrees - but You do have the fault "Reset does not work" ?
CC - You press the armature of S-Relay for a long time means until the Reset is completed ?
You can do AA or BB or CC ?
I am frustrated - I was hoping "You do BB" - but instead of "Reset does not work": SB-Relay actuates and then the Reset completes.
It is late - I must go to sleep - till tomorrow. Maybe another pinsider has a good idea ?. Greetings Rolf

AA yes only a 120 degrees turn, machine does not reset
BB yes right
CC yes right

#16 1 year ago

Hi Albert
please wait some minutes. Greetings Rolf

#17 1 year ago

Hi Albert
(((I made faulty drawing / writing - wrong color of wire - but I have changed by now)))
thanks for Your post-15. I had an idea - You have proved it wrong - the idea was "The S-Relay is not staying pulled long enough in time to make the SB-Relay to actuate.
New idea, questions: See the JPG - about in the middle, Score-Motor stuff - I have marked "blue" the Switch on S-Relay that makes the motor to turn (By manually actuating endlessly the armature on S-Relay You make the motor to turn endlessly (well, until You are satisfied with resetting, let go). In the JPG a bit to the right I have marked "light-green" a switch on SB-Relay that shall make the motor to turn endlessly (well, until the Control-Bank does reset). And some more lightgreen marked stuff: We see "X1-, X2-, X3-Relays (to reset Score-Drums), Add-Player-Unit" do work with the help of the turning motor to reset stuff in the startup-sequence.

Questions - When You start Your way - by constantly keeping the S-Relay actuated: Do You see the SB-Relay in the Control-Bank actuate ? If "Yes" then please inspect the Switches on SB-Relay - especially the switch with wire-color-green-red, wire-color-red-white - truely closing ? clean ?

Please - before doing a test - toggle-off, then toggle-on the main power switch - doing this You make the ZB-Relay to actuate when You toggle-on - and we want the ZB-Relay to be actuated for the next "Starting a game". Greetings Rolf

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#18 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Albert
(((I made faulty drawing / writing - wrong color of wire - but I have changed by now)))
thanks for Your post-15. I had an idea - You have proved it wrong - the idea was "The S-Relay is not staying pulled long enough in time to make the SB-Relay to actuate.
New idea, questions: See the JPG - about in the middle, Score-Motor stuff - I have marked "blue" the Switch on S-Relay that makes the motor to turn (By manually actuating endlessly the armature on S-Relay You make the motor to turn endlessly (well, until You are satisfied with resetting, let go). In the JPG a bit to the right I have marked "light-green" a switch on SB-Relay that shall make the motor to turn endlessly (well, until the Control-Bank does reset). And some more lightgreen marked stuff: We see "X1-, X2-, X3-Relays (to reset Score-Drums), Add-Player-Unit" do work with the help of the turning motor to reset stuff in the startup-sequence.
Questions - When You start Your way - by constantly keeping the S-Relay actuated: Do You see the SB-Relay in the Control-Bank actuate ? If "Yes" then please inspect the Switches on SB-Relay - especially the switch with wire-color-green-red, wire-color-red-white - truely closing ? clean ?
Please - before doing a test - toggle-off, then toggle-on the main power switch - doing this You make the ZB-Relay to actuate when You toggle-on - and we want the ZB-Relay to be actuated for the next "Starting a game". Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Rolf,
Just did a quick test as you requested and started up the machine carefully watching the SB relais. And yes direct after manual activate the S relais the SB relais activates as well.
Dont have time enough this evening , but will cleaning, checking the switches of the SB relais as uli mentioned.
As soon as i do this will report back to you

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from Lambecka:

Rolf,
Just did a quick test as you requested and started up the machine carefully watching the SB relais. And yes direct after manual activate the S relais the SB relais activates as well.
Dont have time enough this evening , but will cleaning, checking the switches of the SB relais as uli mentioned.
As soon as i do this will report back to you

Just finished in checking switches of SB relais, cleaned them and checked on close , special attention to the ones you mentioned.
Did the test again and problem remains.
SB trips but motor only makes 120 degrees turn and score reels not fully reset,
Any other ideas where to look at??
Albert

#20 1 year ago

Hi Albert
see the bottom of the JPG - when the SB-Relay actuates then the switch "encircled green" closes --- AND the switch stays closed until the pin does reset the huge Control-Bank. Resetting the Control-Bank does (besides others) reset the SB-Relay - then switch "encircled green opens".
As long switch "encircled green" is closed: As long does the motor run and run and run --- in Your pin the motor stops therefore I still question the switch and so I suggest two permanent set Jumper-Wires (my brown line and my rosa/pink line) jumpering from "Switch on S-Relay".

Clipping-on gator-clips (Jumper-Wire) on "solder-lug on switch on relay sitting in the Control-Bank" may be impossible --- there is a trick: Using a safety-pin - pushing-in the safety-pin (almost parallel running with the wire to the solder-lug --- inserting the tip of the safety-pin through the insulating fabric of the "original wire to the solder-lug" - then clip-on the Jumper-Wire on the safety-pin - grabbing "original-wire to the solder-lug, its insulation AND the metal of the safety-pin".
It is late - I want to go to sleep - I will write more by tomorrow. Greetings Rolf

0Snow-Queen-Work-09 (resized).jpg
#21 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Albert
see the bottom of the JPG - when the SB-Relay actuates then the switch "encircled green" closes --- AND the switch stays closed until the pin does reset the huge Control-Bank. Resetting the Control-Bank does (besides others) reset the SB-Relay - then switch "encircled green opens".
As long switch "encircled green" is closed: As long does the motor run and run and run --- in Your pin the motor stops therefore I still question the switch and so I suggest two permanent set Jumper-Wires (my brown line and my rosa/pink line) jumpering from "Switch on S-Relay".
Clipping-on gator-clips (Jumper-Wire) on "solder-lug on switch on relay sitting in the Control-Bank" may be impossible --- there is a trick: Using a safety-pin - pushing-in the safety-pin (almost parallel running with the wire to the solder-lug --- inserting the tip of the safety-pin through the insulating fabric of the "original wire to the solder-lug" - then clip-on the Jumper-Wire on the safety-pin - grabbing "original-wire to the solder-lug, its insulation AND the metal of the safety-pin".
It is late - I want to go to sleep - I will write more by tomorrow. Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Rolf, wil do as described, wha are the colors of the wires from S relais that need to be jumpered

#22 1 year ago

Hi Albert
answer to Your question:
Solder-Lug on S-Relay-Switch having wire-GR-RED, green-red soldered-on to Solder-Lug on SB-Relay-Switch having wire-GR-RED, green-red soldered-on - set permanent.
Solder-Lug on S-Relay-Switch having wire-RED-WH, red-white soldered-on to Solder-Lug on SB-Relay-Switch having wire-RED-WH, red-white soldered-on - set permanent.

It is not pleasing when I change the strategy of my approach to the problem - but my changing the strategy (most likely) makes testing easyer for You: See my JPG "drawn orange" are two Jumper-Wires. Toggle-off the pin, unplug main power cord (Safety Reasons) - clip-on the Jumper-Wires, lay the free ends of the Jumper-Wires on wood (not touching each other, not touching metal) near the Score-Motor. Ask a friend for help - plug-in, toggle-on - Your friend shall press the Start-Button while You are ready to put the free ends of the two Jumper-Wires put-together / having contact - as the friend presses the Start-Button the Score-Motor starts to run AND YOU NOW put the free ends of the two Jumper-Wires together - keep-on - the Score-Motor runs and runs - do the Score-Drums in the Backbox reset ?

I do have the theory "Switch on SB-Relay (actuating / beeing actuated) does not let current flow to the Sore-Motor" - and to check my theory the " 'drawn orange', text above, friend helping" approach is less complicated than using safety-pins for to mount Jumper-Wires.
So when You do that "drawn orange" manipulation when starting a game - do the Score-Drums reset ? Greetings Rolf

0Snow-Queen-Work-10 (resized).jpg
#23 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Albert
answer to Your question:
Solder-Lug on S-Relay-Switch having wire-GR-RED, green-red soldered-on to Solder-Lug on SB-Relay-Switch having wire-GR-RED, green-red soldered-on - set permanent.
Solder-Lug on S-Relay-Switch having wire-RED-WH, red-white soldered-on to Solder-Lug on SB-Relay-Switch having wire-RED-WH, red-white soldered-on - set permanent.
It is not pleasing when I change the strategy of my approach to the problem - but my changing the strategy (most likely) makes testing easyer for You: See my JPG "drawn orange" are two Jumper-Wires. Toggle-off the pin, unplug main power cord (Safety Reasons) - clip-on the Jumper-Wires, lay the free ends of the Jumper-Wires on wood (not touching each other, not touching metal) near the Score-Motor. Ask a friend for help - plug-in, toggle-on - Your friend shall press the Start-Button while You are ready to put the free ends of the two Jumper-Wires put-together / having contact - as the friend presses the Start-Button the Score-Motor starts to run AND YOU NOW put the free ends of the two Jumper-Wires together - keep-on - the Score-Motor runs and runs - do the Score-Drums in the Backbox reset ?
I do have the theory "Switch on SB-Relay (actuating / beeing actuated) does not let current flow to the Sore-Motor" - and to check my theory the " 'drawn orange', text above, friend helping" approach is less complicated than using safety-pins for to mount Jumper-Wires.
So when You do that "drawn orange" manipulation when starting a game - do the Score-Drums reset ? Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Rolf, yes that was an easy test to do
Jumpered the orange line and as soon the machine start , motor running , i connected the both wires and score motor keeps running resets all the reels and at the end resets the big resetbank.

#24 1 year ago

Hi Albert
good - manipulating so the Score-Motor MUST turn when the SB-Relay actuates does help the Start-up-Procedure to succeed. So You now must have an good inspection of "Switch on SB-Relay - truely closed ?" and "wire-green-red truely soldered-on ?" and "wire-red-white truely soldered-on ?". And now comes the awful rest of needed inspection: In the pin follow wire-green-red - follow the wire until the wire is soldered-on again - truely soldered-on ? Also, in the pin follow wire-red-white - follow the wire until the wire is soldered-on again - truely soldered-on ?
Always - a connecting wire is soldered-on on both ends - either here or there the wire can be broken-off ...
See the bottom of the JPG in post-22 - I listed the Relays that have a switch to make the Score-Motor to run --- where are these relays mounted in the pin ? How is the actual wiring in the pin ? In the schematics we only see "abstract drawing".
(((If, if You do not find the fault (broken-off-wire): We then may do a permanent work-around doing the Jumpering "brown - brown star, rosa-pink - rosa-pink star" - as we know "Switch on S-Relay functions))) Greetings Rolf

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Albert
good - manipulating so the Score-Motor MUST turn when the SB-Relay actuates does help the Start-up-Procedure to succeed. So You now must have an good inspection of "Switch on SB-Relay - truely closed ?" and "wire-green-red truely soldered-on ?" and "wire-red-white truely soldered-on ?". And now comes the awful rest of needed inspection: In the pin follow wire-green-red - follow the wire until the wire is soldered-on again - truely soldered-on ? Also, in the pin follow wire-red-white - follow the wire until the wire is soldered-on again - truely soldered-on ?
Always - a connecting wire is soldered-on on both ends - either here or there the wire can be broken-off ...
See the bottom of the JPG in post-22 - I listed the Relays that have a switch to make the Score-Motor to run --- where are these relays mounted in the pin ? How is the actual wiring in the pin ? In the schematics we only see "abstract drawing".
(((If, if You do not find the fault (broken-off-wire): We then may do a permanent work-around doing the Jumpering "brown - brown star, rosa-pink - rosa-pink star" - as we know "Switch on S-Relay functions))) Greetings Rolf

Rolf,
Will need some time to do this, because weekends are more for,family either then flippers.
At least now i know where to start to investigate. Wiring of this pin is in a very good original condition, and color of wires easy to follow. Will let you know the outcome, and if that looks ok will let you know.
Further to let you know very much appreciate your help.
Albert

#26 1 year ago

Rolf, takes me some more time, but wil report as soos as possible
Albert

#27 1 year ago

Rolf i followed the two wires you mentioned from the switches of the SB relais. Hell of a job , but finally found everything nothing wrong.
So at least came back to SB relais, and you advices to again to check the switches again. Manual let the SB fired and switches were closed.
Then rebuild the resetbank and start the machine again , very close watched this SB relais, and visual switches closed perfect.
After the SB was fired, reels started to reset and as always stopped after few seconds.
When score motor stops, pull with my finger against the already closed switches , and score motor started again to finalize the reset .
Hope you understand what i did.
When the SB relais fires it closes the switches, but because of the low pressure off the spring, it came back just a little bit and just opens the switches . There the problem is, by renew the spring and adjusting the switches a bit , to make sure that if closed to stay closed.
Machine runs as it need to be again.
Lot of hours spend to solve this problem, but finally succesfull.
May i thank you to point me in the right direction to solve this problem.
Its time to go to bed

Best regard
Alber
Netherlands

#28 1 year ago

Hi Albert
great - You could fix Your pin. Here https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2230 ipdb mentions "first modern pin with bonus-ladder" - does the bonus-ladder works fine with the (rest of) "logic of play" ? Greetings Rolf

#29 1 year ago

Maybe the lockin switch on the S relay did not conduct well enough to keep the relay energized?
Too "much" return-spring pressure can cause that sometimes.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Albert
great - You could fix Your pin. Here https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2230 ipdb mentions "first modern pin with bonus-ladder" - does the bonus-ladder works fine with the (rest of) "logic of play" ? Greetings Rolf

Rolf, yes bonus ladder works perfect.
Albert

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