MI
Law that’s what I’m talking about. The spinner chime is mud!
(Topic ID: 269190)
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Stars
Stern Electronics, 1978
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The solenoid "queues" on Sys7+ are also for current control and priority.
Quoted from slochar:I don't know if you'd consider differing timings on the switches a timed queue? Would that even be called a queue, in the sense that the game notices a switch state changed, so it starts timing it until that switches criteria is met, so there's a list of switches that are timing before they are considered valid state changes?
That's just debouncing before latching/dispatching based on switch type and open vs close.
Quoted from cfh:Law that’s what I’m talking about. The spinner chime is mud!
Oh, 
cfh , you're talking about the spinner? Gosh, I wish I had realized that before. I didn't change the way the old code was firing chimes for the spinner, I just moved it from the 10000pt chime (highest chime) to the 100pt chime! Here's a comparison of old versus new.
If you want it to play on the same chime as the old code, you just have to change this line (in SternStarsDefinitions.h):
{ SW_RIGHT_SPINNER, SOL_CHIME_100, 3},
and make it
{ SW_RIGHT_SPINNER, SOL_CHIME_10000, 3},
You probably want to change the left spinner to match that new value as well.
{ SW_LEFT_SPINNER, SOL_CHIME_10000, 3},
In terms of spinner chimes, that's the only difference. One switch hit = one chime regardless of speed. And, just so you know, these "automatic" chimes (spinners & 10-pt switches) are not controlled by the Music Level parameter because they happen as automatic triggers from the switches. I can hook them up to Music Level if that's something people want. A silent spinner is kinda depressing, but whatever 
And please bear in mind that the changing of the chime to SOL_CHIME_10000 will in no way change the scoring rules for the spinners. Scoring is based on number of stars for the right spinner and center drops for the left, as marked on the playfield.
Quoted from cfh:what you really want to do on the spinner is alternate between 100 and 1000 chime. This gives the chimes plenty of time to recover and it will be a much clearer sound. Plus it would sound cool
I thought you wanted them the way they were in the 78 code.
This is beginning to seem like a rapidly moving target
Quoted from DickHamill:If you want it to play on the same chime as the old code,
I show both spinners using the 100 point chime in the original code.... IIRC the only time the 10k chime is used is on the 100k special collect.
I did think it was odd they only chime it once per spinner hit originally when I disassembled that code but you can't just sit there servicing a chime queue over and over while there's other stuff to do.
Quoted from CoreyStup:That's just debouncing before latching/dispatching based on switch type and open vs close.
The timers are certainly in a dynamic list though, but not a queue in the original meaning.
I did wonder about why system 6 did it the way it did, I mean it does seem to work for that system; none of the other OS's seem to use the data that way. I have wondered in the past why they didn't offload the functionality of reading the switch matrix into a hardware circuit that the software would just read a register in memory somewhere, but that would offered little advantage at the expense of hardware complexity.
DickHamill are you using a switch queue in your implementation for any specific reason other than speed in the backend to ensure no valid hits are missed?
Quoted from DickHamill:I thought you wanted them the way they were in the 78 code.
This is beginning to seem like a rapidly moving target
well it needs something and you seem resistant to want to address it.
probably the *easiest* way would be to do what i proposed with alternating between 100 and 1000 chimes. because then you don't have to deal with timing issues. Plus it will probably just sound really cool!
Quoted from cfh:well it needs something and you seem resistant to want to address it.
With such terrible customer service, you should ask for a refund.
This is the problem when you do open source and ask for comments. If you don’t want that, don’t do open source and ask for comments! It’s really that simple.... if he just said, here it is, then fine. But it you ask for comments and then ignore them, well...
Quoted from cfh:This is the problem when you do open source and ask for comments. If you don’t want that, don’t do open source and ask for comments! It’s really that simple.... if he just said, here it is, then fine. But it you ask for comments and then ignore them, well...
I started this thread with:
> I'm hoping some people will give this mod a try on their Stars (it's easy to switch back and forth between the stock game and this mod) in order to get ideas for new features and potentially find bugs.
and in regards to your comment, I said, "I will add that to my list of things to do for Stars2020 (version number at boot is already on that list)."
In the past 19 days, I've done little else with my free time aside from respond to issues and try to help more people have the ability to enjoy their machine in a different way. I'm not asking for thanks, I've turned down all requests to sell this as a pre-made product, and I intend to continue to support this and other games simply because I enjoy doing it.
And in response to your feature request about the chimes, I outlined the four possible approaches I might take and told you, specifically, it was on my list.
Your issue with this project seems to be that the order of my priorities doesn't align with yours. The wonderful part about open source projects (particularly GPL & copyright free projects) is that if you have any disagreement with my priorities you are completely free to take part of all of this project in a new direction.
Let me say two things again so I know I have been clear:
I'm hoping some people will give this mod a try on their Stars (it's easy to switch back and forth between the stock game and this mod) in order to get ideas for new features and potentially find bugs.
I have added chime decluttering to my list of things to do for Stars2020 (version number at boot is already on that list).
And I'd like to add one clarification: I appreciate all the comments, ideas, bugs, etc. that people have reported and I hope that everyone keeps them coming. I have no intention of crowd-sourcing the order of my priorities, so please don't take offense if your ideas don't immediately make it to the top of my list.
Quoted from Xtraball:So if I’m picking up what you’re throwing down, you’re saying you’ll be more than willing to stop what you’re doing and build me a board that will make my Stars play the way I want it to . Jk, keep up the good work sir!
I'm in Maine, so I'm guessing you can't be more than 6 hours from me. I'll drive it down to you.
Quoted from DickHamill:I'm in Maine, so I'm guessing you can't be more than 6 hours from me. I'll drive it down to you.
Keep up with the incredible work!! Don't waste your time dealing with the little bitches you can never please. There are many of us that are so grateful!! Thanks for breathing new life into these classics!
Quoted from DickHamill:I'm in Maine, so I'm guessing you can't be more than 6 hours from me. I'll drive it down to you.
You don’t have to go to all that trouble, I’ll meet you. Just call me when you’re about a half hour from me!
Dick, I appreciate what you’re doing and I don’t even have a Stars.
Just reading about what can be done from someone dedicated to understanding all the details and myself trying to learn a small fraction.
Thank you.
you wanted comments so we gave you comments. But you only seem to want comments that align with what you want to hear. That isn’t really wanting comments, now is it?
I think it’s great that you went to this trouble to do this. And you’ve certainly been helpful to people that can’t get the hardware running (me included), mostly due to variances in Arduino hardware. But those of us that have got it running you seem indifferent to what we found as Play issues.
I asked a friend of mine if he was going to put this hardware in his stars. His response was this... “ Why would I change a game that was perfect from the start?“ this is what you are up against. You’re trying to change a game that many View, for the era, pretty damn near great. The bar is high. If you’re looking to get over the bar, you’re going to have to address some of these small nagging issues that make it hard to even see the bar.
Now if you had modified a game that people viewed as mediocre Or less, these little issues would be far less important. But you chose a great game. So you’re gonna need to *really* strive for perfection. This is really what you’re up against.
As for taking the ball and running with it, I’m not sure I’m up for it. Yes it’s open source. Have I ever written in this language? No. am I familiar with the operating system that you have created? No. So for me to learn all the stuff to make some seemingly small changes, seems like a bridge too far. I mean I’ll do it if I have to, but it’s not really what I’m looking to do.
Besides if I was going to do this project, there would’ve been a lot of other things I would’ve done. For example, I would’ve Implemented a G.I. relay. Pretty easy to do as there is unused transistors on the solenoid driver board. And a nice lighting effect that you could flash the G.I. on and off, kind of like 1980s games particularly DataEast. It would be a nice effect. Will probably add some other hardware too...
And to those that haven’t even managed to buy the parts, assemble it, compile and upload the code, and get it working in their game, you should probably keep quiet. As they say, “no horse in this race”...
Quoted from slochar:are you using a switch queue in your implementation for any specific reason other than speed in the backend to ensure no valid hits are missed?
The Arduino runs fast enough that there's not a huge concern that switch hits will be missed, but the program was only using 50% of dynamic memory (the Arduino has 2k of RAM) so it made sense to put in a FIFO switch stack (currently set to 100 hits). if a program takes more than 8.3 ms in a loop (which would be outrageously slow), then there's no danger of missing a switch hit. I use the same algorithm described in Bally Theory of Pinball (open, closed, closed). When I see that, I push to the stack.
Short answer: just to ensure no valid hits are missed, as you said.
Quoted from cfh:you wanted comments so we gave you comments. But you only seem to want comments that align with what you want to hear. That isn’t really wanting comments, now is it?
As I mentioned 1 day ago - chime spacing is on my list.
Above, you'll see a change to one file (SternStarsDefinitions.h) that will make the spinner chime identical to the 1978 implementation.
Change two lines that look like this:
{ SW_RIGHT_SPINNER, SOL_CHIME_100, 3},
{ SW_LEFT_SPINNER, SOL_CHIME_100, 3},
To look like this:
{ SW_RIGHT_SPINNER, SOL_CHIME_10000, 3},
{ SW_LEFT_SPINNER, SOL_CHIME_10000, 3},
Quoted from cfh:But those of us that have got it running you seem indifferent to what we found as Play issues.
With the item on my list to declutter the chime queue and the change to the spinner, I consider all Play issues regarding chimes to be on my list or already fixed.
I don't see anything else in your post that I would consider a suggestion for the game. I remain 100% open to hearing new comments/ideas/bugs from anyone.
After this post, I will not engage in any critique of my responsiveness, perceptions about my attitude, or motivations. That level of engagement is not what I'm offering.
Quoted from cfh:Fair enough, thank you. The chime code lines are helpful.
I notice no chime sound for the slingshots, which is unlike the original stars code (using your stock sound setting). Was that on purpose?
I missed that - thank you - I will add slingshot chimes to my list.
On the subject of slingshots - in modern games do the slingshots generally "validate the playfield"? I'm not sure of the terminology, but I think there's a concept where the ball timers don't start until a switch has been hit & maybe the slingshots don't technically count as a start to the ball? I could be off base here.
The reason I'm wondering is because I remember watching videos where the player will let the ball drain because the playfield hadn't been validated and then the ball will kick back out. I'm curious if I should implement that.
Really all games work like this even ems (gottlieb ems only ball1 player1, but Williams and Bally ems work like this on every ball every player ). And it’s not just a slingshots it’s any switch. you serve a ball to the shooter lane and plunge. If you score 0 points (Zero points scored), it immediately goes back to the shooter lane with no penalty like loss of ball. This can happen over and over and over to a point is scored. As soon as any switch is hit, that is points scored, and you lose the ball, then the ball number is incremented.
Some games have shooter lane switches. (Stars obviously does not.) But games with shooter line switches don’t qualify that switch as a “hit “. It Has to be a play field scoring switch
Quoted from cfh:Really all games work like this even ems (gottlieb ems only ball1 player1, but Williams and Bally ems work like this on every ball every player ). And it’s not just a slingshots it’s any switch. you serve a ball to the shooter lane and plunge. If you score 0 points (Zero points scored), it immediately goes back to the shooter lane with no penalty like loss of ball. This can happen over and over and over to a point is scored. As soon as any switch is hit, that is points scored, and you lose the ball, then the ball number is incremented.
Some games have shooter lane switches. (Stars obviously does not.) But games with shooter line switches don’t qualify that switch as a “hit “. It Has to be a play field scoring switch
Got it - thanks.
I'll have to put that in (oversight on my part).
Quoted from DickHamill:On the subject of slingshots - in modern games do the slingshots generally "validate the playfield"? I'm not sure of the terminology, but I think there's a concept where the ball timers don't start until a switch has been hit & maybe the slingshots don't technically count as a start to the ball? I could be off base here.
The reason I'm wondering is because I remember watching videos where the player will let the ball drain because the playfield hadn't been validated and then the ball will kick back out. I'm curious if I should implement that.
Playfield validation on more modern games is usually a 'major' switch, or a switch count. For stars, probably just slings would be minor, maybe the pop; since there's no shooter lane switch for you to know when the ball has started the first switch hit should be something.
Quoted from slochar:Playfield validation on more modern games is usually a 'major' switch, or a switch count. For stars, probably just slings would be minor, maybe the pop; since there's no shooter lane switch for you to know when the ball has started the first switch hit should be something.
Gotcha - good to know. I can put this on a configurable variable.
Thank you.
Sherwood Park, AB
On Stars it is a one switch validation, a sling, bumper, a spinner, drop target, etc. On most modern games they have a three switch validation. Some EM’s don’t have validation at all.
Quoted from DickHamill:Gotcha - good to know. I can put this on a configurable variable.
Thank you.
On EMs that is Bally or Williams it’s pretty much any switch that pulls in the ball index relay. And that means any switch that’s wired to the 10 or 100 point relay (which in turn closes a switch which energizes the ball index relay). That pretty much any switch! On Gottlieb it is in fact any switch that pulls in the first ball relay. This will advance the ball count as soon as the ball drains. If you plunge with no points score, you'll get the ball back. (except gottlieb multiplayers, that's a bit more complicated. Single players after the first ball don't care about point scoring, you loose the ball!)
On solid state games from 1978 up to pretty much anything during the 90s, it’s anything that scores a point. There’s no minor or major or three switch architecture here! you score *any* point and loose the ball, ball count increments.
On modern games in the last 10 years, that has probably changed. There they may have a 3 switch count. But in my experience, it's still any switch hit (for example, Stern Jurassic Park, any switch and loose the ball, ball count increments.)
But since stars is 1978, any switch that scores a point is going to increment the ball count number upon ball drain!!
Quoted from cfh:4 minute game play video. No ball save on this MPU board. Also the chimes are set to "low". me thinks both of these things should be the "default".
I think I'm getting somewhere with diagnosing the issue. I have a scenario where the code thinks it's getting lots of pop bumper hits when the pop bumper switch is not touched. From here, I should be able to track down the bug (and when it was introduced). Thanks for the video -- very helpful.
So the state machine you're using is basically different modes the game is in, correct? Did you do it this way to make debugging easier because you can debug a setup for each state machine vs. trying to track different variables for every possible combination? Am I misunderstanding the state machine concept?
Quoted from slochar:So the state machine you're using is basically different modes the game is in, correct? Did you do it this way to make debugging easier because you can debug a setup for each state machine vs. trying to track different variables for every possible combination? Am I misunderstanding the state machine concept?
Yes, the states of the machine are negative (self-test/audit/parameters), zero (attract), or positive (gameplay). The main loop directs the processor to one of three functions depending on the state and the inputs to those functions are (broadly) the time, switch stack, the state, and whether the state has changed. There are other implicit inputs of course.
The reason for implementing this way was that it seemed like a natural way to consolidate (limited) resources. Other conceptual frameworks would be just as valid.
My focus is to try to keep each pass through the loop as tight as possible, so I operate on timed events, service the switch queue, and return. The intent is to keep response times fast.
Quoted from cfh:4 minute game play video. No ball save on this MPU board. Also the chimes are set to "low". me thinks both of these things should be the "default".
I fixed the symptom on my machine.
Narrowing it down, I noticed that I was keeping the switch strobe high on one line until I was ready to strobe the next line. If a drop-target was charging C24 and then an intermittent closed star switch was charging C24, the cap would still have enough charge to sometimes give a phantom reading on the pop-bumper.
To alleviate the issue, I now drop the strobe lines immediate after I read the switch byte from U10:PortB.
The latest code is on GitHub and ready for more testing.
Here's a video of the reproduced behavior and then the fixed:
I've pushed new code to GitHub for Stars2020 if anyone wants to assist with testing. Many parameters have been added/changed, so there are no doubt bugs. If you have the time and you'd like to help test, it's in the same repository:
https://github.com/MrEkted/BallySternOS/
(be sure to grab the "One Sheet" document for a list of the adjustment parameters available)
The last stable version is here if you don't want the latest:
https://github.com/MrEkted/BallySternOS/tree/3c605f75883943eb10beb3cbc0dfe3e3424eb4a4
Feel free to message bugs to me or post them here. The best bug reports contain repeatable steps to reproduce (when possible), and a video is always useful.
CHANGE LOG
==========
Changed behavior of switch hit at start of ball (validate playfield)
Factored out Read Credits & Read High score to the generic versions (read byte & read UL)
Updated Test/Audit/Parameters to expose more settings:
* Added tournament scoring parameter
* Added Number of stars to start with
* Added Star level lock in award adjustment
* Added spinner chime control
* Parameterized scrolling scores
* Parameterized Extra ball & Special award (for tourney scoring)
* Added setting for what level of switch validates playfield
* Added parameter for wizard mode duration
* Added parameter for wizard mode switch reward
Added spacing for sound effects (they don't play concurrently at Music Level = 2)
Added adjustment definition for chime spacing (compiler define at top of Stars2020.ino)
Added extra ball award, special award for drop targets (with tournament option)
Added slingshot chime
Quoted from cfh:The new code is actually pretty awesome. The alternating spinner rocks in all seriousness. But the unskill shot is what we really like!!
That's fun
The long story, in case anyone is interested:
The playfield validation has three settings (any switch, any switch except right spinner*, and major switches).
The right spinner scores Number Of Stars * 200.
The number of stars at the beginning of game is settable to zero or one.
So, yeah, it's currently possible to validate the playfield with a right spinner that's not set to score anything. I understand that this may break custom with pinball in general, so in response I suppose I can either add a token amount of points to a zero-star spinner (like 10?), or I could have a zero-star spinner never validate the playfield. In the parlance of my former profession, "This is not a bug, it's a feature."
* the point of this is to allow for a soft-plunge to the flipper without validating the playfield.
This looks RAD!
We played the new version quite a bit tonight. Got some questions but I would say overall it is progressing nicely. On the unskilled shot you have to add some sort of points. You can’t finish a three ball game with zero points!! Not only is it not customary it just seems ridiculous because it would be the only game on the planet that would allow that to happen. Below is a gameplay video. We also spent some time working on our stars and put LED lights in all the CPU control lighting. This video was taken before we did that. But any videos we take in the future all the CPU control light should be working well. We are victims of 40-year-old stern light sockets!
really think the point value for the pops should go from 100 to 1000 points when you get super pops. That would be traditional.
Also we always have the ball save turned off. And the spinner set to alternating sounds. I think both of these things should be default. If you want to add Ball save to a 40-year-old game I guess that’s OK. But it seems goofy to me. I guess it’s a nice option but I don’t think having ball saver on as a default is the right thing to do
I sent Dick an idea for a super skill shot...
do a soft plunge. Ball goes up to first gate, and comes back down, turning the right spinner a half turn (what would be 10 points in a normal stars game.) Ball falls to the right flipper. Spinner is now worth 1000 points a turn with a clean hit from the right flipper! Any other switch hit kills the super skill shot.
Quoted from TheLaw:So what's the Sterns lock in shot? What's the ....
Ahh ok sorry I'm caught up now, didn't have th rule sheet with me.
So the dim/full stars on the spinner lights is a tad tough to tell with LEDs, but that's ok. I guess my question is why do the stars on the targets stay lit? Aren't the stars on the spinner being lit tell the player what they need to know? The somewhat vague dim/full stars on spinner isnt an issue at all if the target stars go away after locking in each full round?
Great update man.
Some more ideas to enhance the code...
That would be to use the knocker more. For instance, when you get the skill shot, why not use the knocker coil in correlation with the chimes? So when you achieve some event like say you get the skill shot, or you get super pops etc. etc. Use The knocker! And I mean don’t just hit the knocker once, get it to play a song along with the chimes. I mean why not? The coil’s already there so why not use it more? And don’t just hit the knocker once, hit it several times along with some chimes to really show that you’ve achieved some goal!
Another thing that would be nice would be to implement a G.I. relay. This would be more involved though. Again when you hit some goal, flash the G.I. relay.
This would be an optional thing obviously. And pretty easy to implement. Use a 43v relay, like the flipper relay. Really easy to wire in. Just something to think about...
Another cool thing is you can vary the duration of the coil pulses. Might not make much difference in the chime coils but with the knocker A soft or hard knock may sound considerably different
Stars2020 Change Log (6/17/20)
Major Version: 2020
Minor Version: 2
* USE_WAV_TRIGGER define and USE_CHIMES define can be used separately or in combination now (warning: using both pushes code to 97% of capacity)
* Music Level adds 4 (sound effects) and 5 (sound effects & music) if USE_WAV_TRIGGER is defined
* Added code to stop all WAV Trigger playback when the self-test switch is pressed
* WAV Trigger stops simultaneous playback of spinners, pops, rollovers, and 10 pt triggers so background music won't be stopped on boards with firmware < 1.3
* Right spinner scores a default of 10pts when no stars are lit. This case didn't exist in 1978 version because there was always at least one star lit (which is a configuration in the new code), but convention dictates that a spinner have a default score, so now it's 10 points.
* Left spinner scores 1k points if no other switches have been hit during the ball (with the exception of Right Spinner)
BallySternOS Change Log (6/17/20)
Major Version: 1
Minor Version: 1
* Added a handler for U11:CB1 interrupts - this interrupt comes in on J5:pin32, and normally doesn't occur. In case it does, it's now handled & cleared.
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