Without Issac Asimov there would be no Dr. Who.

R Daneel Olivaw forever!

Could you please name me a designer that never "copied" something from his own or other's games?

No, you do need to explain yourself. You told me I'm wrong and basically said I'm attacking a designer for nothing, and something you can't see. I am not. I am stating facts about an obvious clear copy of another designers work, and something that has been done many times by him. I have supported this with MANY aspects, and others have added to that as well.

You have done nothing but call BS on my comments, and haven't given one good reason why, but want to exit looking like the good guy, and "agree to disagree". Basically, you can't argue the fact that Tron is a copy of FH, and shouldn't have disputed my facts. You can like/love/worship Tron all you want, that's not the point. The point is it is a copy and when I question the term "designer" with someone like this, if you want to dispute it next time, come to the table with something more than "agree to disagree" and call me out on it.

Now continue trying to have the last word on something you haven't bothered to bring one supporting word to the point of this discussion YOU entered into on.

This is not the same thing. Other designers have used signature stuff or re-hashed their designs in different ways, it's not the same thing - it is their designs. Steve Ritchie has been working on a basic Firepower design and enhancing this for over 30 years with many of his games. Lawlor uses signature double inlane returns, scoops, crossing ramps, ways for starting modes etc for many years. Both Gomez and Eddy have redone and changed a previous design of *theirs* to make future machines. They are all still the designers of these. Some have borrowed from others, no question, but show me the Ritchie pin that looks exactly like a Lawlor, or the jpop that looks exactly like a Trudeau. Borg has always copied many aspects of Lawlor and Ritchie outright.

Borg has made some machines, although very fan like and uninspiring in my opinion, but to each their own, but the popular ones have been clones, and there is no arguing that. I would love to have this guy's job, and do what he does. I don't know why he goes this route, and maybe it's not even his decision, as Stern has been known since day one to copy and steel whatever in pinball and has been sued by all the main companies because of it. I'm sure borg is a great guy in real life, but I have had a bad taste in my mouth since Tron has come out given all the praise and those completely choosing to flat out ignore the obvious:

*Lawlor is responsible for about 90 of this game.*

It's not about the machine, I'm not saying Tron sucks, it's about praising borg because of it.

So back to my first comment, please explain how borg is a (insert whatever word here) designer

Wow shrek and family guy are shamlessly the same. Ive never played either, im sure there are software differences that change up the gameplay... But damn. I bet stern uses the same pf for these two games. At least the same guy is credited with designing them both...

You can be absolutely right, but frankly these things mean little to me. As cliché as this may sound, if the game is fun, then that's all that matters to me.
I love tron, so Borg is a great designer too me. Just like both Ritchie's, Gomez, Nordman and so on, has great games i love, but also games that doesn't do it for me. Fun is all that matters to me. And frankly this should count for everyone else too!

I hear you, but like I said, regardless of your or my opinion of the game itself, the discussion was over borg as a designer of tron. One could still completely agree with me and still say tron is their fav game.

I could take your favorite game, be it TAF (mine), MM, STTNG, LOTR, CV, whatever, copy it with a decent dude theme like tron (given the topic, say a new Star Wars theme), change very small things, and it could be well liked/loved. Doesn't mean I should be credited with "great designer" for doing so though right?

I'm curious where do you, personally, draw the line in a copy? You shouldn't give a pass to designers that pre-date Borg because it was, frankly, much easier to be unique in the 70's, 80's and 90's than it is today.

Whatever atomicboy you come on here attacking someone that has dedicated his life to making pins for us and done a good job of it. I call your whole stance and calling out of him low and unnecessary. To top it off your being borderline trolliss. Let others express themselves without having to prove anything to you once in a while.

All pins can be pointed out as being similar to other pins. What I am saying is you singling out Borg is total BS. If its so easy to make pins by copying other designs then why don't you go out and do that? All the work the man has put in to make these pins for us just to be bad mouthed by you? Please. I'm not going to waste one more second conversing with you on the subject. However, I will once again ask you allow others to express themselves without jumping all over them. No one owes you an explanation that is detailed up to your particular standards just because they express an opposing view. You are not the only person in the world with an opinion.

_{Post edited by The_Dude_Abides : Edited out some things atomicboy is right he does not have a bad rep here at all and I should not of made it seem that way.}

Back on topic, what LE's would you prefer?

Darth Vader LE
Yoda LE
Boba Fett LE
Han Solo LE
Palpatine LE
Luke Skywalker LE
C3PO & R2-D2 LE
Obi-Wan Kenobi LE
Count Dooku LE

Pu-pu for two.

That would be badass.

They are the same...on purpose...just a retheme...

As cool as some of these would be I think we would be stuck with either Jedi / sith or empire / rebel alliance.

Can't wait for midichlorian multiball.

I think so too, but who wouldn't want a Vader LE???

Enough with the bickering, let it go already, let's enjoy BSing about things, because that's all this topic is. I might be in the minority, but a C3PO & R2D2 LE would actually be awesome. But only if it comes with a custom sound set, where R2D2 yells instructions and insults at you, and C3P0 translates them.

"Beep dewwwrrp deep bee breeep ..."

"R2 suggests that next time you use the flippers."

"Dreeee brrrrpp droooo bee beep ..."

"Yes, R2, I agree, go for the right ramp!"

r2d2-cat.gif

I play both Funhouse and Tron at my local Pinball arcade. They are nothing alike.....at all.

Stern has been sued by all the main companies? When?

By Bally in the late 70s over copying their boards, and by Williams in the late 80s for the exact same thing. This is what I have read on the subject, I believe both were settled out of court.

They play differently, in a way, but the same could be said for the same machine with code udpates. I still shoot many of the same key shots in tron that I do in FH, ie through the pop bumpers, the rudy/gem shot is the exact hard shot, the left ramp shot, the mystery mirror/cora shot, upper right loop in FH/upper ramp in tron... I don't know, they go different places, but the shots all feel the same to me.

Atomicboy you have stated your stance very clearly in every which way possible about a topic that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Please stop pressing this issue and allow others to participate in this thread's topic from here on out.