And at what point do these games all become too similar then?

MET's CIU mode is already similar to AC/DC in terms of cashing in jackpots/rewards or choosing to continue, and now we want ST to be like that as well?

Just thinking out loud here. I like the idea in theory, but not excited about the prospect of 3 recent Sterns being so similar in rule sets. At this point I'm probably sounding like I'd be impossible to please, but I can't help but say that this particular idea wouldn't make me want to keep the pin in my particular collection due to the similarity with AC/DC and MET.

I don't really see how adding a rule that lets you 'cash out' or build up makes Star Trek play at all similar to AC/DC or Metallica myself. The gameplay and shooting isn't really at all similar on all three otherwise.

One difference between the two is that if you already have two balls locked (and lock lit), and the next mode is ready to start, if you hit the "Mission Start" shot, you will *not* start a new mission (mode), but you will start the MB instead. By contrast, if you hit the "Away Team" shot with 2 balls locked, you will start the new mission (mode), and the next shot to Mission Start or Vengeance will start MB and it will be stacked with the current mission/mode.

The irony is that due to the above, they should have switched the names of the two shots, since the Away Team is the shot that will always start a new mission (even with 2 balls locked).

Who said it did?

We are talking about rules. People are making specific recommendations to make it like CIU, which is already like AC/DC, and now we want to make ST like those two as well?

It has nothing to do with "gameplay and shooting" being similar or not. Rules never change the way a pin shoots.

If rules can be the same on all pins, why not have them just copy and paste the rules from LOTR or AC/DC and be done with it?

The idea should be to improve the rules that are there and perhaps take ideas from other pins that have good rules, especially for the 18 modes, but in my opinion the CIU and AC/DC type of cash in or risk it would be getting pretty monotonous, and that's coming from someone who loves those rules.

I definitely see the point you're trying to make, and I'd agree with you except for the fact that the CONTEXT of that gameplay feature is different in each game, making it a different play experience in each. Plus the term "cash-out" and the comparison to MET is actually really not appropriate in context to what we're talking about in ST when I think about it; we should have used something else better to compare it to?

-in ACDC, the cash-out starts anew each ball, and carries over throughout all modes until you decide to hit the cannon target to cash out.

-in MET it's a JP that increases during a set amount of time in one mode until you choose to cash out an not continue.

-in ST it is simply whether or not you want to move onto another mode rather than drain your ball during that one mission. No JP is awarded. You don't lose the point/KM/Super rounds benefits in any way if you drain; you just lose the scoring potential for them. When looked at in context it is a completely different impact on the gameplay than either MET or ACDC.

I guess I'm not really understanding what's being suggested then. What's the point of being able to continue the mission or switch if there is no reward for doing so? I'm going to have to go back and read these suggestions again I guess. Are we talking about staying in a mode that has already been timed out or completed? Why would you want to do that when we've already been complaining that they take too long as is and we are shortening the mode times in the settings?

And you only have 2 of the 3 games anyway so your opinions are invalid :p

This isn't true. I currently have all 3 of the games in the collection!

It's been mentioned elsewhere, but I don't think in this thread: for the pro model, finding a good use for the shield targets could certainly up the fun factor some. The eject hole has a tendency to occasionally send the ball directly down the outlane, so perhaps having the potential to earn protection against being rewarded for a tricky shot with an insta-drain would remove some frustration.

Maybe neither here nor there (and with all due respect), I'd hope any new features/modes/graphics don't further muddle the old world universe with the reboot. I understand the desire to appeal to both fanbases, but the former is already well served by other machines, and nobody's going to be able to forget the the new version when playing this table anyway. I'd have thought there was enough fan service in the current movies to draw on without pulling in old elements like the Gorn and crazy-sword-waving-and-shirtless Sulu. Of course the tribbles do make brief appearances in the movies, but I'd think any inclusion in the game should be just as subtle a nod (as would ideally apply for any other referential element).

Anyway, the Away Team shot does seem like it presents interesting possibilities, and personally I was really taken with the earlier idea of using innovative interactions with the fire button as a way to take the game to another level.

You completely lost me here.

Why would you not want to move onto another mode "rather than drain your ball"?

Ironically you and several people have been suggesting just that already, no?

I figured someone would say that. That's why I said at this point it probably sounds like I just can't be satisfied.

But.....no, I used LOTR, as have others, as an example of how to improve on each individual mode and make them more distinct from one another. There are a lot of other pins whose rules can be used as examples as well, in terms of how to improve each mode.

To me the biggest problem with the rules on this pin remains the fact that the modes feel so similar. I think the Urban update, with lots of new call outs and hopefully new sound effects thrown in, will help quite a bit in that regard.

Got ya! That makes sense. I don't really think it will help much to do that, because the effect is that you are still staying in a mode rather than progressing?

And this is probably what we'll get, for better or for worse, because as much as I like BSing with everyone (and you know I was just teasing about LOTR I got your point) I just don't see any radical rewrites of how the game works, just evolution of what's there. And I'm okay with that, because it's really all I want. Make the modes feel more unique, hook up the custom audio and ease back on the repetitive movie clips, get some more sounds in there for combos, that sounds like a great game to me. Because I like it as it is, it's just that it needs a little more special sauce.

I was playing Tron yesterday and hit a 4 way combo, and I love the little sounds that build up as you hit your shots. It's subtle, but man, it makes you feel stoked to nail it. I want that feeling on Star Trek.

I like this because it has the default effect of progressing through the second and third level of missins automatically during multiball. That's the one thing I personally would really like to see - the ability to bring a level 1 mission into multiball and progress all the way through level 3 if you really play the multiball well. By the end you could have built a shot multiplier on your jackpot shots and fully comleted a mission all at the same time. Plus it would pair well with the strategy of bringing your third mission in a line into the multiball as you would be reaping that bonus reward, working on the level 2 mission, and getting the normal multiball jackpots if you managed to last past the end of the level 1 mission timer. I've heard people say to bring a level 2 mission into the multiball for better scoring and a better chance to complete the mission, well this would allow you the best of both worlds.

I could see this working too with the caveat of automatically proceeding to the next level if the level was completed during multiball. That's for two reasons, since you can't start another different mission during multiball anyway and because its harder to make time to hit the button with multiball going.

I think solution would be less of an overall change so maybe there would be less reason for anyone not to like it. I mean if you didn't hit the button to continue on to the next mission level then everything would basically be the way it is now right? Mission start and/or away team would light after the 5 seconds to press the button passed so you'd be no worse off if you just wanted to choose a different level one mission. I can understand why some poeple wouldn't want to see drastic changes to the current rules.

Bingo. I think you are correct that this is what will wind up happening. There aren't going to be any big changes to the rules. But a few little tweaks of the rules (I definitely expect the Warp Ramp to be used better) combined with lots of new call outs (Urban) and some new sound effects can go a long way towards making the modes more distinct and rewarding.

The shield buttons on the pro... I dunno a great answer for those besides stern selling a kickback kit.. And I would buy it.

Just make it a virtual ball save and call it a day?

I think they would've put that in allready if they were gonna do it, but who knows.

i don't see what else can be done.

whatever they chose is better than nothing.

Wish they would incorporate a DMD mini game… Perhaps space jump and dodge space junk till you get to the destination..

I hope they stay away from video games in the pinball, unless you interact with it while the ball is in motion.

Like... ummm... ST... TNG

Still the same shots but the modes sure play and feel different

I believe (havent fully reread everything) if people are thinking the same thing I am, the idea would the be the away team shot or mission start would give you the option of getting out of a given mode and into another one. The reward would be you complete tier 1 of all modes for kobayashi if you do this for all modes. Tier 2 is enterprise amok, etc... if you choose to NOT shoot for mode change, or abort the mode change after shooting the shot, you continue on in a single mode from tier 1, to 2, to 3.

Basically, the game plays 100% the same, but there is no 'in between missions' ever.

Isn't there already a feature like this in the super modes and KM multiball? Everyone who likes the game keeps defending the 'time out modes' argument with the 'oh you gotta play the modes cause the captain modes are based on the scoring in the story modes' so in reality you are banking points in mode performance, to be collected later in super ramps, or KM multiball no?\

It's maybe not cashed out in one big OMG SONG/CIU JACKPOT but supposedly it makes it stupid to time out all the tier 1 modes so theres something to it.

100% agree

My suggestion was made in a hurry but after thinking about it today I agree that the mission start shot should be made to start a new mission after tier 3 or to start KM multiball, enterprise amok, or perhaps some other side missions they decide to throw in (warp missions or something?)

The away team shot would be the 'abort mission' shot where you could choose to change missions, or just continue on because you shot it by accident.

In any case the point is ultimately, no 'in-between' time for modes. That time where mission start and away team is the only valid shot on the pf is kinda boring and frustrating - inevitably I end up accidentally starting a MB or desperatly trying and failing to make one of the two most difficult shots on the table over and over.

I just played a decent game (well for me, 68 million, I'm sure some people regularly slaughter that) and I have to say, it was still damn fun. I really want these updates, I'm excited for them, but there's a solid game there just waiting for them to elevate it.

Yep, that's one good example.

Well, that does make sense. This would actually be an example of one of those small improvements that I mentioned earlier. It won't make a big difference (like you say, the game will still play the same), but even small improvements, especially in this area (where it makes it easier to progress if you want to play it that way) can make a positive difference.

most boring part in the code for me are the vengeance 2 and 3-modes. 2 is all about timing out and 3...well, sometimes i shoot it, just hoping to survive and get to the next vengeance MB...

All I know is that door's there to stop us from getting irradiated! We'd be dead before we'd make the climb!

I agree the Vengeance 2 and 3 modes are a bit boring. The first one is the best and most exciting. I would like to see some more shot variety in these modes also not always just hitting the vengeance shot. Like maybe one mode has the drop target up all the time and you have to hit other shots to lower it to hit it ship. Something else to mix up the flow and gamepaly.

I have to say again how much I appreciate you guys hashing this out. I enjoy ST, but I know it has the potential to be so much better, and your suggestions are better than anything I've come up with on my own.

And who's gonna lead us?? YOU??

A few questions.

First. Has Stern said when the new update is coming and is it it just an audio/call out update? What is the current software code? 1.4? My pro was made in March, so I would assume that is has the latest software?

Second. Do the shields do anything on the pro model right now? I have a pro and have been wondering...

I've read this whole thread and you guys have come up with a ton of great ideas. Bravo! I have a lot of the same gripes.

1. I want them to add "X" amount of shots to finish tier 1 missions. The first few times I played I thought "what the hell am I supposed to be doing here? I'm hitting the shots!" Then I realized you had to run down the timer....bummer.

2. Vengeance 2 and 3 really need to be changed/re-worked. When I hit vengeance 3 the first time, I was really confused as it seems to be the same as Vengence 2. Vengence 2 is kind of lacking as well.

3. Warp ramp. This also needs improvement. The 3rd flipper and warp ramp is one of the reasons I bought the game. It's so satisfying to nail it! Now I realize after I hit the extra ball, there is no real incentive to shoot this dangerous shot.

All in all, I like the game. I don't love it yet, but I trust that the boys at Stern will make this pin fantastic soon!

Look man, I killed a Klingon patrol, I think you'd better watch your tone.

Stun your ass and drag you out of that chair

I've had my game torn apart getting some power coating done, and honestly, I don't really miss it. When it was together I played it a fair amount, but more because it was my newest game than because I loved it. I rarely flip games, but I'm just not drawn to this one as is, and I really LOVE Star Trek as a theme. I'll patiently wait for the code update, but if it isn't a major change to the core of things (at least level 1 modes) my STLE may be used to fund something else.

Did you copy and paste this from my brain?? Those are exactly my thoughts. The whole tier 1 missions and just hitting shots for points and not completing a mission is troublesome. And the warp ramp, after I get the extra ball, is worthless to me. No need to even try and shoot for it.

You want me off this thread....you better kill me!

i was thinking an easter update would be cool but time is running out .

Was thinking the same....but i learned in this thread, if you have super ramps running and you are able to combo the warp ramp, you can get some crazy points out of this. Depending on how you performed in the modes for super ramps you can get up to 50 Mio. just from super ramps! This changed my strategie. And this is what i like about the current code...there are a lot of ways, how you build up your strategie. I have hundreds of plays but am still trying new things.
Besides it would be nice to have some other goodies out of the warp ramp and vengeance 2 and 3...

Additionally, even without super ramps running, you still get crazy points for hitting the ramp. I believe it's 100k X warp. I generally get past warp 9, meaning I'm getting about 1mil per ramp at that point. Nothing to sneeze at.

So I checked this out last night with the glass of. The shields award about 1 mil points on the pro model when you light them both. That is very disappointing. I know the pro doesn't have a kickback, so have it do something else or why did they even put it in the game??? You could at the very least make it activate a ball save for the left outlane only, like a virtual kickback , and then just kick a ball into the shooter lane. Anyone have any other ideas?

Let's talk about shot multipliers....

Believe it or not, they are in the game, but most of us will never realize this as you have to complete all 3 stages of a mission. I'm sure 90% of the people out there do all the 1st missions before moving onto the 2nd round of all missions. So, you never utilize this cool concept. Plus, it's just not a lucrative strategy to try to complete all 3 mission stages before getting 3 in a row....

How can this be fixed?

Perhaps an award for completing the less than stellar 2nd and 3rd Vengeance Modes is choosing a shot multiplier?

Or perhaps after hitting the warp ramp consecutively 3 times you're awarded a shot multiplier?

What do you guys think?

There is still the KM need to shot the WARP RAMP twice. Super Skill Warp Ramp shot via holding down the right flipper at mode start for 1,5M. Plus it is just an excellent fun shot to nail. I feel like a bad ass if I can combo multiple WARP RAMP shots. I see your point. And others have added ideas to enhance the rewards to the WARP RAMP. But my motivation even as the rules are now regarding the WARP WRAP. Is just plane fun a satisfaction of a excellent shot design. I understand the focus of this topic is to improve the gameplay. But for now just have fun with it .

As far a black hole awards go. They should get rid of the "Add Time" bonus on Tier 1 missions. I avoid the black hole award at all costs now. I don't want to add time! I'm trying to get through this mission!!!!