Haha! I think ANYONE would love for Lyman to join EVERY game code team, but I don't think Lyman is necessary to make the needed adjustments on ST code.

Truth be told; after playing a good solid 3 straight hours of MET the other day with 1.5 code, I wasn't blown away by it. Certainly not jizzing all over myself as some seem to be over the CIU modes. I'm not trying to start a flame war people....different strokes for different folks. MET is a great game and the update made it better, but you'd think by reading some of the reviews that it was the 2nd coming of Christ in pinball form. I'm sure if I were a MET owner that the update would have meant a little more; just like XM code meant more to me because of the roller coaster ride of owning it. Anywho, this isn't the thread for that, sorry.....

Point being is that I'm not specifically talking about adding something just like CIU in function, but in "spirit" I guess. A mode(s) that the player can always work towards, no matter what mode they are in, that stacks with ANYTHING. The game needs some side goals to go for.

I think I agree with everything you said... what you described is the difference between a great game that I would want in my home vs. a game I will play when I see it on location (given my life and location... that is maybe two to three sessions a year ).

From a location perspective, I will also add ST is a failure for being "too easy", at least for me. If I put in $2 and can't remember how long I've been playing after winning an extra ball almost every game, and replays every other game... you are not earning well.

Compare that to WoZ that seems to eat money.

I would not normally complain about getting too much value for my dollar, but ST pushes up to the point where I will mention it. It is certainly not a hard game to keep the ball in play. It just does not give you lots of reasons to keep playing.

I'm in the red mode... whee.. Maybe next time I'll start the purple mode. Does it matter? Nope... just keep flipping, almost no strategy to see here...

One thing I was thinking about while playing today is that the repetitive audio on the Level 1 modes is made a little worse because of how unaware the code is of what just happened on the previous ball audio-wise. Get a bad drain on Nero towards the end? Hope you want to hear that clip about his trajectory being to Earth again, because you're about to get it twice in a row. It would be nice if the clips were flagged so you wouldn't get them again in the same game. It breaks out you of the immersion to hear them repeat, even if it's your own fault for draining.

I really do believe that the audio is a big part of the 'grindy' feel of the game now, especially the Level 1 modes, because they're pretty wordy, and play clips without really paying any attention to how you're playing. You end up hearing them all, every single game. Yes, I killed that Klingon patrol. Yes, I know what the Prime Directive is, with my disguise on. Hey Scotty, good call, that door should probably stay closed. It's nice that the movie source is available to pull sound from, but I think this is probably a case of less is more being the better course of action. Especially as I'd really like to hear more audio feedback from the game as you progress and hit shots that wasn't necessarily narrative, but more related to how I'm doing.

It would also be nice, with all that audio available, to create alternate clips. Maybe add more, but maybe just take what's there if memory is an issue, and cut down which ones always play, and from the cuts create alternate versions that could play some other % of the time instead. On Scared Stiff when you hit the deadheads it's always a nice surprise when Elvira busts out one of the b-side takes. Instead of "He always wanted a little head!" you get her say "My favorite!". It breaks up the routine expectations.

I also think the best games are those where you really get a feel for how you're playing just from listening, looking at the DMD should be supplemental. Hit an 8 way combo? Maybe there's a specific call out for that (Karl Urban?) or maybe the 8 part isn't necessary, but you should know that you rocked the combos without having to look up and wait for the display to show you something. Some sound effects at least. The way the tones build as you hit the Vengeance is great for example. Cues like that as you built a combo would be sweet. They could be subtle even.

_{Post edited by Aurich: Mixed up my Deadhead callouts!}

Excellent news!

As for side goals it is the little things in games that keep you coming back. On CFTBL ramp millions where you basically just hit the left ramp is a ton of fun and rewarded with great sounds and points getting bigger and bigger.

At the moment there just aren't enough reward points in this game and that feeling of nearly getting something and then wanting to try, try again.

I love playing the game but it doesn't yet having me hit the start button over and over. But hopefully with some adjustments this will change

My feeling is that we need something more to add to the experience then just the Vengeance modes. Can we get something to do with combos and or a bonus for warp ramp shots? Perhaps combos can initiate a reward that helps us during level 2 & 3 modes. Give us a little more variety more layers then just the regular mode after mode. I agree the sounds will help but we also need some more depth to the rule set to make it seem less monotonous.

I really enjoy the layout but it just doesn't have the draw it had during the first month of ownership. I'm hoping with next few code updates will help the pins lastability and increase it's overall appeal. Very glad to have anyone at Stern giving some thought to what owners here on Pinside have to say. Most of us are big fans and really do want to love every new pin we play.

I think more/varied quotes are a given....that usually happens with updates. Especially knowing that Karl Urban is gonna record a ton of stuff, I imagine most if not all of our audio nitpicks will be vastly improved upon.

I apologize for my bad english

would be to have a reward when you finish a mode, as in Lord with gifts
I think it would be interesting to continue the level 2, then 3 ... when we finished the mode 1 ...
I have great difficulty moving in the validation mode, at the end ... (I think it breaks the rhythm) it would be better to go directly to the following when you win ...
the colors are beautiful in the attract mode
but I think the game is too multi color ... it's not very nice ... it will deserve to be more monochrome in color mode
I think that will come ... but there is not enough interraction with the general lighting
comparison with the Lord is interesting
in the Lord, missions are launched at random ... but in the end it seems to have a vercu peradventure ...
and I wonder if it is not it should be done ... to launch a mission to chance ... to 3 levels ... and once a full mode (3 levels) finished, it was a way special ...
before attacking a new mission
I have a crazy idea ... why not offer the player at the beginning ... a story mode as the Lord ... with missions in order to chance ... and an arcade mode with free choices

Exactly. I've made the same comparison myself previously.

As it stands, you don't "defeat" any of the level 1 modes like you can in other pins, like LOTR. In LOTR you can finish a mode (it times out) without defeating it. Like Star Trek, you get to keep progressing in LOTR by simply finishing modes (it accumulates towards TABA), but you also get a Gift of the Elves IF you *defeat* the mode within the time allowed.

It's those gifts/bonuses for defeating a mode that is really lacking in Star Trek's code right now.

You need some kind of feeling of accomplishment after doing really well during one of the modes, other than just knowing that your JP scores will be higher during Kobayashi Multiball.

Again: make it so we can DEFEAT the mode (not just start it and complete it by the timer running out and hitting the last lit shot).

Also, each of the modes needs to be much more unique in terms of shots required. Each mode should concentrate on a few select shots, whether it be the Warp Ramp, Vengeance, ramps, etc. I.e., depending on the mode, we would know that once we start that mode we think to ourselves "ok, this is the Warp Ramp mode" or "this is the ramps mode" etc.

Even for the modes you can defeat, like Level 2, it's really anticlimactic. Sometimes I don't even know I've beaten a Level 2 until the Away Team shots light up. Aside from getting to try Level 3 next there's really no incentive or feeling of accomplishment for finishing all the shots. There's the little flashing final shot I guess, but that's not really enough.

Exactly.

I'd like to see some sound FX, music cues and light shows tied into the DMD animation. This was a problem with X-Men as well...tons of cool animated sequences but no sound FX. Not sure that ever got resolved in the most current update, but haven't heard anyone mention it.

Examples:
Klingon Battle 2 - When you start the mode, the Klingon grabs Uhura, then lasers start firing. It would be nice to have that *grab* "choke" sound and then laser blast sounds accompanied by flasher FX.

Destroy the Drill 2 - When you complete the mode, the Romulan stumbles back and gets fried by the fire blast...it would be great to have sound FX sync up to that action and a big flasher show when the fire blast fries him.

Yeah, that's a great example, it really needs more fanfare. The animation kinda takes a moment to get going, and you're basically sitting there with things quiet waiting for him to get toasted, and then it's Away Team lit and you move on.

Well, here's hoping that Steve can push to make this happen...cuz it didn't happen on X-Men. It's very similar- there's a scene where Wolverine destroys a Sentinel, you see his claws retract, and the Sentinel head lands on the ground...but there's no sound FX to go with any of this action...it's a shame.

On the other hand, you have a game like Spider-Man, sound FX pretty much always accompany what's happening on the DMD....every time Venom growls toward the screen there's a big growlie sound effect...when you destroy Sandman and he's falling apart, sound FX and shaker FX accompany the explosions...and pretty sure there's a big flasher show at the end when he finally crumbles.

I'm not completely opposed to the idea, but keep in mind though that having a mode like that for level one means that there will be a finite amount of points that a player could bring into KM. So it would kinda neuter the KM scoring potential.

If STE had a 6 shot goal, but no timer; even if you combo'd every lit shot, you'd still have a maximum amount of points that you could bring into KM from that mode, no matter how awesome the player, as long as you combo before hitting a lit shot; you'll all get the same amount of points at full value when beating a mode.

Now, if you keep a timer in the mode for level 1, but have a certain amount of shots needed to complete it, and you get an end of mode bonus for every second left on the timer when you finish it, then there could be some interesting scoring potential. That might be the best of both worlds. That way, if you're a novice or casual player, you can still feel like to did something because when the mode times out; you still beat it and can move on and give yourself a sense of accomplishment by filling the grid. And if you're an intermediate to average player that knows what they're doing, you can try to complete the mode as quick as possible (which still highly promotes combos) so you can move on into other modes, as well as get a dynamic points bonus to the modes for how quickly you beat them.

Just a thought.

What about having the black hole award a random completed mission? The value of the mission will have to be a set value but in return you can advance quicker. Also it may screw up your strategy which will add a random element. Have a setting in the menu to be able to turn that option off and a setting to adjust the % chance of it happening.

I absolutely do not see this as an issue at all.

Could it possibly be any more simple to add rules that say that if you *defeat* the mode that you get maximum points during KM? This isn't an issue at all on LOTR and how the scoring works during TABA. Are you familiar with LOTR rules?

Plus (and I'm not in favor of this) you could have it so that even if you defeat the mode, the mode continues until the timer runs out so you can keep scoring in the mode.

That seems too unweighted. Tell you what though, aside from add a ball I see no reason to bother shooting for the black hole now.

You get super modes for completing 3 of the 6 modes. That's your bonus/ gift. You're also given your choice on when and which super mode you want start, and if you want top stack them, which adds to strategy.

In every current mode, you can combo multiple shots in a row. How are you going to combo shots in warp ramp mode?

Look at your score. The last two shots are worth huge points. That's your reward for finishing them. If you combo them, they're worth 2x huge points. I don't care what lights go off or what's on the display when I'm getting points in big chunks like that.

Right, but it doesn't feel like anything, and that's the point. I don't want to watch my score to see how I'm doing, I want to watch the playfield and the ball, with the display being really secondary. As the line goes, you don't play the display. Keep the flashing end shot, combo to it for sure, I get that part, it's the icing I want.

I definitely care. I want the light show. I want some sounds. The display already has animations, and I'm fine with them, but I don't want to watch the display to find out. Yes, I want the points, but I want the game to feel responsive to me. No one is really complaining about the scoring per se, we're complaining about how it feels to play. More opportunities to score in other ways would be welcome too, not because you can't score points now, but because some variety would be good.

I think the general idea of the combo system is great. Fast flowing game that rewards you for accurate on the fly shooting, great. Totally on board with that as the key concept of the game. I think it's fun to play now. But it could really be taken to the next level with the changes we're suggesting, without compromising any of that.

You get those for *starting* three modes and letting them time out (and finishing the last shot). That's not defeating a mode and getting an award for doing it.

Uh...that's exactly the point! I don't want to have combos be the same goal in every single mode.

This is the big thing missing in a few aspects of the game, you don't get the feedback to know you're accomplishing something till you can look up to the score. The shadow's 'wow x shot combo' is probably a little too goofy and obvious, but something in that spirit would be great combo feedback.

Yes, the Shadow is perfect in that way. Obviously not in tone, it fits the Shadow but would sound ridiculous in Star Trek, but if Bones was saying it? "Jim, that 9 shot combo almost took your arm off!"

I don't want to look at the DMD to make sure I hit the ramps combo in Shadow, I want to hear SUPER VENGEANCE IS YOURS. I want to hear EXCELLENT SHOT. I want to hear the crackle of the bombs defusing as I hit the shots. I live for Farley getting beat down and screaming as I taunt him after stacking his mode with the battlefield.

The game gives you 5 or 6 seconds between modes to both check your score and select the next mode. Plenty of time for both. Do you ever let that time out? Or do you usually hit the punch it button or both flippers to start early? Next time you start a level 2 mode, check your score at the beginning and at the end. Zero risk. Part of any strategy should include checking to see how much you are scoring on each mode, if not each shot.

It's the best combo game in years. Might be the game's biggest asset. And you want less combos? They're also very valuable strategically. You take out combos and you're removing strategy and points. And if one of your level 1 modes is only warp ramps shots, casual players aren't going to like that mode. If they shoot for the flashing light, they're going to mostly miss and drain fast. Not a good casual player mode.

I can check my score, that's not the problem. I'm asking for feedback while I play, with sounds and lights. You might not care about that, but I do, and so do other people in this thread.

This!
Would like to see the warp ramp more lucrative. especially in tournaments, where extraballs are off, theres no need at the moment to shoot this really challenging and nice shot. What about rewards like in sttng for the warps. Maybe a Bonus hold, Bonus x, playfield doubler, ball lock or or or...

I find myself shooting warp ramps cuz it feels good with that callout, there is room for improvement points wise. is there a loop champ?

Totally agree with this . Seeing an animation on the dmd with no sound does nothing for me. the start of Kobiyoshi (sorry to late to spell check) is a little lacking in sound effects and needs more impact like the ending of most other modes . the level 2 of space jump has extra sound effects and thats what others need.

"It's the best combo game in years."

It might be but you don't get that feedback while playing.

So here is another idea.

After 3 modes are completed all bonus points are awarded/stacked automatically but before the next mode the punch button flashes and Bones says ' double up' or something. You then have 10 seconds ( maybe more or less ) to hit vengence to collect double what you earned or lose it all. And another Bones call out with sounds etc.

Bit like the do or die jackpot in IM. Makes it more intense, more adrenalin, risk reward.

It is a great feature being able to gamble and double, treble awards and seems the punch button could be well utilized here, along with customized Bones callouts.

Would also break up the 18 modes.

if one makes the 3 levels of the missions ... three in a row does not work
the yellow missile is not very nice. I would put the missiles in the color of the mission
we can also imagine that the missiles used to advance the missions ...

I find that different music can have a big impact here. Much of the music has a similar up-tempo mood which is understandable.

On my machine, I replaced the original game music with music from the movie soundtrack. For the music that is played during a mode, I make sure to pick exciting up-tempo loud music. But for the music after a mode is finished, I picked a decidedly quiet and down-tempo piece. Now I know from the music alone that I have finished a mode.

First off, to Steve and his team at Stern, thanks for taking the time to read this thread. Knowing that you care about the product helps to justify spending so much $$ on a pinball machine

I love my STLE. My biggest issue right now is that aside from the first Vengeance mode, the other 2 just aren't worth playing. The 2nd Vengeance mode which is a hurry up is dangerous and not worth that much, which makes me want to avoid it all together (I usually time it out). The 3rd Vengeance mode is the most disappointing, as despite taking some time to get to, it feels like a toned down version of the first one.

Perhaps if completing all 3 Vengeance modes lead to something cool at the end, it would be more lucrative to play them and interesting. Even giving out an extra ball wouldn't be a bad idea - b/c the game takes so many missions to complete, even a competitive player like myself feels that I'll never get to the end...

If you have Super Ramps running, the Warp Ramp is much more lucrative than hitting the other two ramps. Shoot through the spinner loop to set it up and just keep looping the Warp Ramp. Discovered this last night. Glanced up at the DMD to see Warp Ramp shots worth 4.8 million a shot! Hit a bunch of those in a row and watch your score jump.

The way things work now, the combos simply are not satisfying.

Hitting combos on AC/DC are WAY more exciting that hitting them on ST.

And on AC/DC, hitting combos isn't the goal of every mode (song)!

So to answer your question, YES, I want combos to play a less important role in ST.

Excellent discussion gents. My ST is getting delivered today, so I'm crazy excited right now. The game is tons of fun as is, but it's great to know that the programmers are listening, and more awesomeness is coming.

Pedantic rule observer says: Maximum TAF jackpot is 25M x 3.

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread. I'm not a good enough player to have thought through these issues in this much depth, but I definitely agree with the general trajectory of this discussion. ST is such a good pin and deserves this level of attention and development. Much appreciated.

As long as that would stack with ANY mode/Multiball/wizard; that would be awesome. A "floatable" Multiball would be awesome in ST.

warp 9.9 is a lot of work for just add a ball

I fully agree. The warp ramp is super fun to make, but after I get the extra ball, what's my incentive to keep hitting it so many more times just for an add a ball? Plus, the shot is risky, in that if you miss, it tends to be very out of control.

Eskaybee's suggestion is right on. At least a fun multiball mode makes it worth going for warp 9.9

STLE is such a good game, with awesome shots, but the rules need some tightening up to make it the masterpiece it really should be.

I like this idea but how about tying it into the film. I'm thinking of the scene where they need to eject the warp cores to escape the black hole? Once you are in MB maybe you have to hit the warp ramp again X no. of times to eject enough cores to escape. It would lend itself nicely to some cool DMD scenes -
warp-core-blast.jpg

that sounds cool disloid and a big vengeance mode at the end of the other ones where hitting the ship gives you a vengeance JACKPOT with callout from Karl would be good too , or one of Steve's better voice callouts , not the toned down ones which I think should go.