Great ideas. I agree that the level one modes are too similar. The level 2 and 3 modes are great and more interesting, but a little too difficult to get to.

I like honest product reviews from owners. Tells me that my TSPP and LOTR haven't been surpassed.

I just wonder, to me the game makes much more sense going three deep on each mission, I have not played enough to figure out but it should be more rewarding to go three deep or there should be a significant reward more so than doing three level 1 missions in a row.

Seems to me it encourages you to play level 1 missions first etc. but to me just thematically it makes more sense to do one task at a time like destroy the Drill etc.. Finish that task and move on, otherwise you are quitting in the middle of a task if you just do level 1.

I know it's just a game but I wish the story was played out more in that way.

No wizard mode should be easy for average players. It took me over a year to reach Portal on Tron, and I've never seen Valinor on LOTR after years of playing it. If an average player wants to see them, stretch rubber bands across the outlanes, but don't dumb down the games. I love the struggle, and the rush the first time I hit the goal of a long quest.

One thing I question in your suggestion is having all teir 1 missions running at once. Wouldn't that disturb the flow of the mission itself? Sure, they could be better, but they are each the first section of that mission. So it would almost be like clipping them off if they all ran at once.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm, you're basically asking for a complete re-write. They're already having trouble finishing software now, and you want to go back to the drawing board and pretty much start over?

Nonsense. They're intentionally somewhat shallow, which is mostly for noobs. Scoring has been changed so that most of the time, timing out modes is a bad idea. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face. Reaching Hibachi multiball is getting easy to get to for me now, and I don't even own one. Not that hard to reach.

That's how you light extra ball. There are already overlapping goals in the game (Klingon MB with a mode). Don't want to overlap too much.

It takes a long game to build that many torpedoes. Noobs would never finish it.

Too easy. How am I going to build points for Hibachi MB?

Many of the things you're suggesting don't involve combos. The game (and scoring) is built around combos. All the flow you can handle. Taking that away would ruin the game IMO.

Play level 1 modes until you get 2 balls locked, then switch to a level 2 mode. Trust me, it works.

Hmm, I think I'd rather see the modes each get some more unique ideas (especially utilizing the color changing inserts more) rather than dumb them down like that. I think I get what you're going for, but you're taking a lot of shots out of the game to do it. Now maybe you feel like they're a little too much wood chopping, but creative code fixes that without removing them.

Plus it seems to me that by trying to run them all at once like that you're stripping out a lot of the combos aspect of the game. And the smooth flowing shots + combos is a big part of the appeal.

I don't own my ST yet, and I already know you're a better player than me, so I think I need to put in more time to be able to give a proper answer.

My dream for the code would be to really use those RGB LEDs though. Since the Pro has them too there's no reason why you can't go to town on them. Do things like Q-bert style color switching, where you have to line up the colors by hitting them and flipping them, but if you hit one you've flipped already then it goes back. So you really have to make the shots you need, and avoid the ones you've already done. For example.

*head asplodes* Where's that gif from Scanners when you need it?

Seriously though, things like this are such simple ideas that would drive people nuts over an already great game. I really hope programmers start tapping into all the potential this new tech can provide.

I think they should just make it a 3-shots made minimum to light the final shot at the end of the level 1 modes. If you don't make a few shots to get to the final shot then the mode wouldn't count as completed. That way the player would always have to at least do a little something to complete mode no matter what.

If Star Trek doesn't do it some other game will, RGB LEDs are here to stay obviously. Look at WOZ and the Scarecrow fireball mode, that's a clever use of colors to reward/punish shots.

Wow. Eskaybee always has some great ideas when it comes to rules. But I think I agree more with phishrace in this one.

Some neat ideas here. My favorite is making more use of the warp ramp. As it is, the Warp ramp feels like it is a separate game. I think the Warp ramp deserves a jackpot payoff, like High Speed.

But one of my favorite parts of the game is how each level plays further plays out a scene from the movies. I am not sure if stacking would ruin that or not.

But the solution isn't to chop them all down. Stern will never do that. Each mode is a scene, with dots and dialogue, and you're asking them to throw that all out the window. Practically speaking they'll just never do it. And each scene is 3 parts, you can't just slash part 1 to ribbons, the narrative of the game would be lost.

I would much rather see each mode get more unique twists and ideas, so you have to play each one a little differently.

Really the heart of Star Trek is shooting, it's a super flowy, fast and fun-to-shoot game. You call it chopping wood. I get the application of the term, but I see it as the entry level modes opening up the playfield and encouraging you to shoot it, and then step up your game a little by playing the combos.

I'm just not that mad at that.

Would I love to see each mode blossom in its own direction a little? Become more unique? Definitely! But don't take them away. Making the game "build" as you go isn't really worth tossing things over.

It's not straight/narrow, because you can chose your modes, what 3-in-a-row order to get captian's chair awards, or chose all 3 episodes of one mode if you want. Due to the level 2 and level 3 differences, it's already away from chopping wood territory. Even though some of the mode-shot logic is similar to TF, I don't get the chopping wood feeling due to the variety the player gets to choose. Even the fact that the mode start shot takes some skill keeps it from the monotonous feeling TF has.

It's an interesting idea to turn level 1 into CV-style logic, but like Phish said - that's asking for a total rewrite and that will never happen. It would also make the narrative spazzier (all mission narratives happening at once) ...it's just conceptually too different than what the game is set up for.

In any case, we know updates are coming with more depth/rules/voices. The game's got a good "core" ...it's too early to get too jaded about the rules because more is coming.

Truth. It's fun to speculate on what could be, but we're lucky enough to be in a position where soon we'll find out what's next.

Why do the apron lights need rules? I just though they were there to look cool. They're not individually lit...I think there are two light boards on each side.

Making a pinball machine must be next to impossible, because everyone wants different things out of it. People say they want deep games with lots of modes...you do that, some will say it's 'chopping wood'. Take out all the modes, it's too shallow. Make it all about tournament scoring stuff, 90% of the players don't understand what the goals are. Good luck, pinball designers!

Yeah, once I realized they're not segment lit I pretty much gave up on them really doing much. Which is fine I guess, the Pro doesn't have them, so they probably weren't going to end up big rule gamechangers.

I have no issue with the current code, other that there still isn't enough risk/reward, yes there is still potential to timeout modes especially if you are close to KM...

Would love to see a mode jackpot, essentially the more shots you make it builds up your mode until the time runs out then it starts a countdown for those built up points, the faster you hit a target the more points you get, if you hit the flashing target you get double those countdown points left. This game has so much flow that this would really up the ante for players and hit even my shots on the fly to obtain big points...

In Klingon Multiball would like to see the super jackpot be all of the points that you collect up and to getting there with all the jackpots, with the potential of 2X if you have a red ship lit. Should have a Klingon guy saying suuuuuppeeeeerrrrr jackpot which a much better light show when you do hit it.

In KM you would get those amount of points that you collected and 2x if you have a red ship lit. The three deep modes need to have a 4X feature to them which I am sure will be addressed as they still are not worth going for in the game. Feel the game is pretty fun right now and has the ability to get that much better with a few tweaks.

They're creative. I'll give you that. I think they wanted to differentiate the punch it button from the VIP pass on AC/DC. Button is in the same place, but it's not a smart bomb. Using it they way you suggest would be a lot like VIP pass. Honest to god, I was playing a location ST with my son today and tried to hit the punch it button to recycle a multiball. Needless to say, it didn't work. Please don't make the buttons any more confusing.

I'm not sure progressive supers for Kilingon is a good idea. Klingon is the lesser of the two multiballs. Vengeance has the bash toy (ship) and lots of flashers. You wouldn't want to potentially value Klingon more than Vengeance.

I also time out the 6th mode sometimes. It's no big deal. One mode out of 18. On FGY, good players will often time out one or two modes out of only 5 modes. That's excessive timing out IMO. Your suggestions for level 1 modes won't help the casual player. You're thinking like a player, which is good, but you have to remember the casual player. More than half the games sold go on location. If only a third of those players are casual, that's a hell of a lot of players. Don't want to scare them off.

Heh, good point.

The lack of attainable playfield multipliers is what really turned me off to the game (too much work to complete 3 levels for 1 Playfield 2x shot.). It flows nice but the modes are rather boring & all the multiballs are pretty much the same with the exception of Vengeance.

Id rather have seem them keep timers on all the modes & reward the player if a number of shots are reached with a playfield multiplier (as is the case with SM). Thats what makes ACDC & even Metallica so good is the potential for some great scoring opportunities by getting 3x going in ACDC or 4x in Metallica.

They'll hopefully fix that somehow. One 2x shot locked in for the game available for 3 of the 6 level 3 modes? (can't get back to back 2x shots. Must get one, finish another level 3 mode, then finish another to lock in a second 2x shot) They definitely need to make the 2x combo multiplier stack with the 2x shot multiplier. That will help.

Both of those are difficult to achieve. 2x shots (combos) are given out like candy on ST. AC/DC and MET have combos, but not nearly as valuable as the combos on ST.

That's a cool idea!

I wouldnt say they are that difficult. Every MB on Metallica you have the chance to get 2x going and even 4x with a few well timed shots to the fuel targets. Sure there are some good scoring chances for combos on ST but really thats the only thing thats fun is combo's for higher Jackpots during MB's.

I guess i'd rather see a full playfield multiplier opportunity somehow. Either way the code needs a lot of work.

I disagree, the code as it is works well. I look forward to the next update, but it's solid, nothing like Metallica. I just bought one, and if I thought that the code needed a lot of work I wouldn't have done so and would have waited. I get the game's vision as it is right now. It's not supposed to play like AC/DC. Which is good, or I would have bought AC/DC instead.

Night and day comparison... Portal is not very difficult as wiz modes go. Valinor on the other hand is bloody near impossible for even the best players at default settings.

I think you have to be careful to not make any one mode potentially super powerful though, or you're going to really imbalance going through them in any order other than "do this one first always". Right now there are different valid approaches.

Maybe I'll feel different after I've had mine for a while, I don't even get it until next week. It hasn't felt like work to me in my playing time so far. I think chopping wood is pretty subjective though, at the end of the day pinball is just making shots at lit targets and ramps over and over, no matter that game, so what's fun and what's "work" is just going to depend on the person.

I would totally welcome more creativity and variety, don't get me wrong, I like your thinking, just disagree with the base premise to build on I guess, I think it's a good game that will just get better.

Hopefully I'm buying late enough that the new code is just around the corner!

It's very Mode-y, which makes it hard to get to Enterprise Amok & 5 Year mission...but, that's the challenge! I have STTNG & get get to Final Frontier relatively easily.... once you play that, you basically "start over again"....modes are even called "re-runs" if you pick them a 2nd time. So, what to some might feel like "chopping wood" - to me feels like an expanded universe you normally don't see in mode based pinball machines. The nice thing about Stern ST, I never go "gaaah, again!?" when it's time to do a mode again...new story/animation/sounds/shots for Level 2 (and 3).

I'd be happy with just having a comprehensive ST rule sheet for starters. Half the time I've no idea what the Tier 3 bonuses are or what I should be shooting for strategy wise

In terms of difficulty, I played X-Men an awful lot on location at work and (not boasting) despite having all of the high scores I never once reached Dark Phoenix and only saw Danger Room (?) once, which means that no-one else even got close to them, even the owner! I don't think there's much advantage to making a game so hard that you don't get to see/play some of the feature MB/Jackpots/Bosses etc.

Instead, make them easier to achieve first time round and then progressively harder for the better players. So start with no mode/mission timers until the 'boss' level has been played then add timers getting progressively shorter on each 'round', making successive 'boss' levels harder and harder to achieve.

On ST even if you had no timers on ST missions it will still take some doing to complete all 18 the first time round. I've had the Kobayashi MB a few times but never completed it and have no idea what the other two wizards are, and I don't think I'm a bad player

How many people get to 99 Bear Kicks on TAF without taking off the glass? It's cool to have features that are rarely seen, IMO... makes the machine feel more alive or something.

Mine is coming tomorrow, so I'm right there with ya!

One thing that ST has going for it that games like TF and X-Men didn't is its popularity. The game is almost universally well liked, and as a result, will sell in big numbers. I'd like to think this increases the chances that it will ultimately receive more polished code than those other games.

Sweet. I only put in my order last night, so probably end of next weekish or so, has to drop ship from Chicago to CA.

Sadly, mine had to drop ship as well, and I only live 20 minutes form the Stern factory. R&L picked it up yesterday, and probably took it to a facility that's further from Stern than my house. Talk about a waste of time, money and resources.

Sure, may be cool to have some hidden/dastardly 'easter egg' type feature(s) to challenge owners or extreme pinball guru/geeks, but not for the main theme/story of the game for the majority of non PAPA players?

Anybody played transformers? Star Trek level one modes are easy by comparison. Try making 11 shots against the time. Fail and you then have to shoot another 3 shots before you can attempt it again.

Optimus multiball - make all shots twice in multiball and then hit megatron. If you miss you have to shoot Optimus double next time round to start multiball so potentially you could have to hit him many times to complete if you don't do it in the first one or two multiballs. I still haven't made it to rollout let alone battle for cyber torn.

By comparison, Star Trek seems easy to light the modes. Just the game is so bouncy and fast you end up losing more balls before you get level ones completed.

I agree with your disagree of Aurich's disagree!

The level 1 modes definitely feel like chopping wood to me as well. There just isn't enough going on to make them interesting or exciting. The rules are as basic as it gets for the most part, and there is a real lack of different strategies that are available for how to play the game. There is also a lack of the risk/reward possibilities that make some other pins so great.

While things do get better and a bit more interesting after you are done with level 1, I don't really consider the game to be "deep" in the same way that some of the great deep pins are. You basically have 6 basic modes, that are all quite similar in feel, and then you multiply those by 3 to come up with 18 (supposedly) distinct modes. Yes, they do have call outs and subtle changes to the rules that make them a bit different, but overall they are very similar...and a bit boring. I do like how the level 2 and 3 modes work better than the level 1 modes though.

I agree with Phish, though, that the chances of any significant changes to the rules is very unlikely to happen. I think the most that we can hope for are some *additions* to the rules as they stand, including better multipliers (Smassa is correct on that issue) and better use of the Warp Ramp (best shot in the game).

But back to the modes. I have only recently got to Enterprise Amok. It's one of the more difficult mini wizard modes to get to in my opinion. Finishing all the level 1 modes (chopping wood), then finishing all of the level 2 modes (better, but still very similar in feel to the level 1 modes) is a long haul...which in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing IF there is a good variety in the modes in getting there. That's a big "if" in my opinion, because the modes are lacking in creativity.

I can't help but make a comparison to LOTR here. That too can be a long haul just to get to something like TABA. But there is a HUGE difference: while it is a long haul, I *never* feel like I'm chopping wood on LOTR because the modes are all so distinct from one another in terms of both the rules and the shots that need to be made. War of the Ents is completely different than Gandalf vs Saruman, for example, and it *isn't* because the sounds/call outs are unique between those two modes.

Where is there anywhere close to this kind of uniqueness between the modes in ST? I don't think it exists. And to be more fair in terms of not comparing ST to one of the best rule sets in all of pinball (LOTR), we can also compare to the very incomplete MET, and I would say that MET's code even in it's current state is more exciting and interesting than that in ST.

I don't want to sound overly negative, especially since despite saying all the above, I *still* play my STLE a lot right now because I enjoy the way it shoots, looks, and sounds (love the theme)....and I do enjoy the various Vengeance modes. But the rules overall definitely fall flat for me in their current state, and will probably prevent this one from being a long term keeper for me (yes, "long term keeper" is a rarity for me anyway).

Hopefully they can add a few things to the rules to make it more exciting with risk/reward and different strategies available.