Star Trek TNG problem with flashers

OK, I'm looking for some help with STTNG. I got the machine about 7 months ago and love it. Plays great and all targets, switches, coils, etc... work fine. About a month ago I realize the playfield seems dimmer than usual but still plays well. I was installing an LED kit anyway so I change all bulbs to LED's. After the change I find that I have no GI lighting and no flashers. I guess that explains why the playfield seemed dim. Im a DIY guy and not a professional although I feel confident in doing some repairs myself. I research the problem online and also this site to track it down to a burnt connector. I repin the IDC connectors at J120 and J121 and sure enough all GI back on. One problem solved. I still don't have any flashers at all. I run the tests with no luck. All of them are out. There are no errors at startup and everything else works as it should. The LED status on the power driver board is as follows: LED 2 On and LED 3 On. As I research more I learn LED 3 should be off. With LED 3 on it signals low voltage. This is where I need some guidance. Can someone give me a list or procedure of things to check to find this issue? I did replace all fuses and checked them with a dmm out of the board before installing. I just need to know where to look next. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

#2 7 years ago

LTG

Pinside member

Hopkins, MN

12y 191K 56,936 24 7

Are the bulbs good ? If you have two white switches on the left side of the coin door frame, one is high power interlock - did you enable it when running tests ? If your game has it, when the coin door is open it will disable coils and flashers.

LTG : )

#3 7 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

See: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Solenoid.2C_Flasher.2C_and_Motor_problems

OP
Quoted from bursits:
There are no errors at startup

The game isn't able to detect flashers that are out.

OP
Quoted from bursits:
With LED 3 on it signals low voltage.

Don't worry about this. Not a problem.

Diagnosing flasher issues is exactly like diagnosing coil issues.

--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
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http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
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#4 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

Thanks for the replies so far. The door was closed at test and the bulbs are good. The new LEDs are good also. I will read over the link provided and see if I can come up with a plan of attack. I will post back if I get stuck but all other suggestions still welcomed. Thanks.

#5 7 years ago

BOB

bobukcat

Pinside member

You tried it with the standard bulbs too and still have the problem?

Flash lamp power is 20VDC, check TP7 and is LED5 on (both on the Power Driver Board)? F111 is the fuse for the 20VDC Power Supply.

#6 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

Ok, I got a result. Not the result I was hoping for. I got home from work and opened the backbox. I checked f111 and could see the fuse was blown. I tested it anyway and it was. I put a new fuse in and turned on the machine. Everything powered up and LED 5 is on. Next thing I knew the fuse I just replaced burned out right before my eyes. The coil slowly stretched and then broke. Now it's brown in color. The funny thing is that LED 5 is still on. What do you guys make of that and what would the next step be? Thanks for all the help so far.

#7 7 years ago

LER

Lermods

Lermods Pinball Co.

11y 201K 10,854 58

The first step I'd take is to look at every flasher socket linked to that fuse and anything else related to that fuse, there is a short somewhere. Look closely at the wiring at each socket making sure nothing is touching it that shouldn't be.

#8 7 years ago

BDT

Bendit

Pinside member

Arvada, CO

8y 49,300 1,116 2

Did you replace the flasher bulbs while you were upgrading to LEDs?

Perhaps a flasher bulb and/or flasher socket is causing a short?

Power off pin. Replace F111. Take out all the flasher bulbs. Power up pin. Fuse still good?

If not, inspect all flasher sockets for short-causing issue?

#9 7 years ago

ZAZ

zaza

Pinside+ Frequent

If LED5 is on while fuse F111 is blown (plus a coil slowly stretched), then there is most likely something shorting between coil-power and flasher-power. Can be wrong plugged on the PowerDriverBoard or a short on the playfield

#10 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

Sorry for the confusion, when I said the coil stretched I was talking about the coil inside of the fuse. It stretched, then broke. All machine coils are working normally and LED 5 is on. I'm going to take the advice and try to check all sockets and connections. Keep the suggestions flowing.

#11 7 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

bursits....you need to slow down, and review the reading that I linked above.
At least you found F111 blown.
What doesn't make sense now is that LED5 is lit. If F111 is blown, LED5 will be out.

I can say with virtual certainty, that BR4 is shorted. Your first course of action is to verify/refute this.
See: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#LEDs_and_test_points_on_WPC-089_Power.2FDriver_Boards

If you have a DMM, testing the bridge is simple.
See: http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_a_Bridge_Rectifier

Test the bridge. Report back.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
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http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#12 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

Ok, a few preliminary tests for previous posts. Bobukcat... I tested tp7 and it reads 22v. LED5 is out (I was mistaken earlier) so f111 blown and LED5 out. To ChrisHibler I did read all the links you sent and the procedure for testing BR4 is straight forward enough. My question is, before I go and take the whole board out is there a way to test it still in the game? I mean, no biggie if I have to pull it out its just too late to do it tonight and I want to confirm this before I do something that isn't necessary. (I've been known to do that sometimes)... Either way thanks for all the help up to this point and I'll pick up tomorrow and test BR4.

#13 7 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

OP
Quoted from bursits:
take the whole board out is there a way to test it still in the game?

There probably is a way...but it would take some research. It's just easier to remove the board. You're going to need it out to change the bridge anyway.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#14 7 years ago

ZAZ

zaza

Pinside+ Frequent

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/black-rose-flashers-18-20#post-2604414

certainly:

#15 7 years ago

BOB

bobukcat

Pinside member

If it took a while to blow the fuse I'd suspect your problem is somewhere other than the bridge but it needs to be tested regardless. You could pull the connector to the flashlamps off the board, replace the fuse and test that way as well I suppose. "Make it so!

#16 7 years ago

JPS

JohnS

Pinside member

Mesa, AZ

8y 19,150 53 1

You could also try disconnecting all the connectors going out to flashers on that circuit, then see if it still blows the fuse. This would tell you that there is a short on the board somewhere.

#17 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

Ok, I performed the test for BR4 using the method suggested by zaza. I put a new fuse in f111 and unplugged j102. The results are as follows.

Black to tp7 and red to:
Pin 1=557
Pin 2=580
Red to gnd and black to:
Pin 1=0
Pin 3=563

If I understand this correctly it confirms that there is a short across BR4. So the next step is to replace and see?

#18 7 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

OP
Quoted from bursits:
If I understand this correctly it confirms that there is a short across BR4.

If your meter shows zero when there is a short, then yes. That is what that means.

OP
Quoted from bursits:
So the next step is to replace and see?

I'd say replace and then be impressed by your new repair expertise.

If you are going to replace it yourself, cut the old bridge off with side cutters.
Heat each leg individually. Just as the solder melts enough, pull the old leg out gently.
Clean out the holes using your favorite method.
Install the new bridge about 1/2" off the PCB surface to allow good air flow.
A 35A/400V bridge is the standard part.

If you want it professionally repaired, and the rest of the board checked out, LMK. I can take care of that.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#19 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

Awesome Chris, I'll let you know. Since I have the board out should I do all the rectifiers or is that inviting more problems? Also, when you do a rectifier should the large black capacitor be done as well? And Chris, could you PM me the procedure and cost to have you repair and check the board? I would like to tackle it myself but I'd like to know all my options. Thanks for all the great advice.

#20 7 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

OP
Quoted from bursits:
should I do all the rectifiers or is that inviting more problems?

You're right...that would be inviting more problems.

OP
Quoted from bursits:
Also, when you do a rectifier should the large black capacitor be done as well?

Nope...not in this case. And, those are much harder to replace without damaging the board.

OP
Quoted from bursits:
could you PM me the procedure and cost to have you repair and check the board?

Check out this link: http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/

OP
Quoted from bursits:
Thanks for all the great advice.

My pleasure bursits!
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#21 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

OK, so I received the new bridge rectifier. I removed the board after taking lots of pics so I know which connectors go where. I tested the BR before install and its good. I de-solder the old BR, clean up the board and install the new BR. Everything went fairly smooth. Plugged it back in and turned it on. Fuse f111 does not pop anymore But.... No flashers. Power off, Now I run the previous test from TP7 to pins 1 and 3 of j102. Blk on tp7 and red to pins 1&3 great, good numbers. Red to gnd and blk to 1&3 and I'm getting nothing!! Not shorted just no reading. I figure maybe my solder job was lacking so I flow the connections and add a bit more solder. I test the BR 4 and still good, test the j102 pins and STILL no readings or half the test. What the heck!! The board looked good when I cleaned it up. No damage that I could see. So now where do I go from here?

#22 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

At this point the board is out so I'm going to wait for tests or suggestions before I put it back in.

#23 7 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Did you test for flash lamp power on the driver board when it was in the game?
Are you sure that you reconnected every connector once completed?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
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#24 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

Double checked all connectors and they looked good. Fuse f111 didn't blow but LED5 was not on.

#25 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

Just a thought, since the trace is on both sides of the board is is possible or likely that one of the connections is not soldered well enough to make contact on both sides? Would that cause the symptoms I discribe? If so, what is the best technique to get the solder to flow through the hole completely? Thanks again for all the help.

#26 7 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

If your soldering device is slender enough, you should solder both sides of the bridge connections to the board.
Since F111 is no longer blowing, LED 5 is not lit, and you still don't have flasher power, the only thing left is the work done on the bridge.
Can you post a couple of pics?
Back side of board focused closeup on the bridge you replaced.
Side shot showing as best you can under the bridge.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#27 7 years ago

ZAZ

zaza

Pinside+ Frequent

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-does-not-have-any-flashers#post-2240886

OP
Quoted from bursits:
Red to gnd and blk to 1&3 and I'm getting nothing!!

The Br4 (-) is not conducting to GND-testpoint

#28 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

That makes sense. I'm out of town this weekend so I haven't had a chance to test that out. I'll do it as soon as I get back and report my findings. Thanks.

#29 7 years ago

BOB

bursits

Pinside member

I got back from my trip anxious to test out the board. I checked for continuity along the trace from BR4- to gnd and sure enough no good. I took out the BR and put in a stitch on all four through holes just for extra measure. Re-solder the BR4 back in and tested the tp7 and ground to pins 1&3 of j102 and BAM... Getting a reading at gnd. I put the board back in and powered up to find LED5 in now ON. Test the game and happy to see I have flashers!!! Problem is now solved and I want to thank everyone who helped point me in the right direction. Thanks especially to Chris and zaza. I have to admit I was ready to ship the board to Chris to have the work done but I just gave it one more look and I'm glad I did. Boy, the game looks so much better with flashers. Thanks again.

#30 7 years ago

TOX

ChrisHibler

Nice! Thanks bursits!
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
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http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
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1 month later

#31 7 years ago

KRS

Krsmith9

Pinside member

I have a very similar issue with my Demolition Man. I just pulled the board out and tested BR4 and the everything was in the acceptable range (one was .493 but I assume that is close enough). I've tried removing all of the flashers and my fuse still blows. I looked for wires crossing where they shouldn't and didn't find anything. Any other ideas?

#32 7 years ago

BOB

bobukcat

Pinside member

Quoted from Krsmith9:
I have a very similar issue with my Demolition Man. I just pulled the board out and tested BR4 and the everything was in the acceptable range (one was .493 but I assume that is close enough). I've tried removing all of the flashers and my fuse still blows. I looked for wires crossing where they shouldn't and didn't find anything. Any other ideas?

When does the fuse blow, when game is turned on, when you do something specific, when and is it F111?

#33 7 years ago

KRS

Krsmith9

Pinside member

It is F111. It blows shortly (a minute or two) after starting the game and playing, even when all flasher bulbs have been removed. It's a slow burn fuse so could be that the issue occurs right away. I'm not sure whether it blows if the game is powered on but a game is not started. I have the board out right now, so can't test that.

#34 7 years ago

KRS

Krsmith9

Pinside member

Okay, I have some new/better info. I put the board back in. Powered up the machine with the coin door open and not surprisingly the fuse did not blow. I closed the coin door and the fuse almost immediately started glowing with heat. I also noticed a few additional flashers that i had missed before in the very back, behind the blue plastic. I removed those flashers and the fuse did not heat up. Should I take that to mean that there is a short in one of those last remaining flasher sockets that I had previously missed?

#35 7 years ago

ZAZ

zaza

Pinside+ Frequent

Could be a blown transistor on the powerdriverboard or maybe wrong plugged ( J124/128/132 mixed up)

#36 7 years ago

KRS

Krsmith9

Pinside member

I checked the manual and I believe I have the flasher wires plugged into the board correctly. I put one flasher back in and noticed that when the machine is turned on, the flasher is constantly on, rather than blinking as it should.

#37 7 years ago

BOB

bobukcat

Pinside member

Are you using standard 89 / 906 incandescent flashers or LEDs? Did you try putting a different flasher in, maybe in the backboard and see if it still turns on? With all the flashers removed, coin door closed what voltage do you have at F111? Post pictures of J124/128/132 so we can compare and make sure they are correct.

#38 7 years ago

KRS

Krsmith9

Pinside member

Yes. I am using standard 906 incandescants. Here is the pic of the board. Which multimeter setting should i use to test F111. I'm new to this. I can't get the flasher bulbs in the back box to light at all. Do they normally light in attract mode? This is my first Williams.

image_(resized).jpg

#39 7 years ago

ZAZ

zaza

Pinside+ Frequent

Quoted from Krsmith9:
I can't get the flasher bulbs in the back box to light at all.

These have separate +20V supply at J106-5. Is that one correct plugged ?

#40 7 years ago

BOB

bobukcat

Pinside member

The backbox flashers only flash or partially light (in the beginning of Borg Multiball) at certain points in the game, not in attract mode. You need to be using DC Volts (sometimes indicated by a horizontal line with dots underneath it) with the black lead on the backbox ground and the red on the F111 fuse holder. If your meter is not auto-ranging you have to select the lowest range that is not below 25V.

#41 7 years ago

KRS

Krsmith9

Pinside member

J106-5 is plugged in. I'll check the voltage tomorrow. Had a bunch of people over today. Always fun exposing new people to pinball. I'll check the voltage tomorrow. Just to be clear, my game is Demoltion Man, I started commenting here because my symptoms were virtually identical to OP, even though it now appears that the cause of the problem is different.

#42 7 years ago

BOB

bobukcat

Pinside member

Quoted from Krsmith9:
J106-5 is plugged in. I'll check the voltage tomorrow. Had a bunch of people over today. Always fun exposing new people to pinball. I'll check the voltage tomorrow. Just to be clear, my game is Demoltion Man, I started commenting here because my symptoms were virtually identical to OP, even though it now appears that the cause of the problem is different.

Might be best to start a new thread with the correct game listed just to avoid confusion.

#43 7 years ago

KRS

Krsmith9

Pinside member

I'm getting 8.25v with the test on F111.

#44 7 years ago

BOB

bobukcat

Pinside member

Quoted from Krsmith9:
I'm getting 8.25v with the test on F111.

Yeah, that's a problem. Follow the instructions here: http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Fuse_Blown_or_Blowing to diagnose the power supply problem or seek a local tech to work on it for you.

#45 7 years ago

D G

Pin_Guy

Pinside member

8y 103K 3,996 11

Quoted from Krsmith9:
I'm getting 8.25v with the test on F111.

You cannot check this voltage as suggested by bobukcat. The voltage on this fuse is the AC voltage coming from your transformer to BR4. the voltage here has to be measured across the transformer windings. Admittedly, I didn't read this entire thread, but I don't want you running down a rabbit hole by this one measurement.

#46 7 years ago

BOB

bobukcat

Pinside member

Quoted from Pin_Guy:
You cannot check this voltage as suggested by bobukcat. The voltage on this fuse is the AC voltage coming from your transformer to BR4. the voltage here has to be measured across the transformer windings. Admittedly, I didn't read this entire thread, but I don't want you running down a rabbit hole by this one measurement.

Oops, right you are! you need to do that test at TP7 (20VDC test point) not at F111, sorry about that but still think the steps outlined at that link are going to lead you to your problem.

#47 7 years ago

KRS

Krsmith9

Pinside member