(Topic ID: 206510)

Star Trek Pro (stern) vs. SW Pro (stern)


By adamross

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 85 posts
  • 43 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by teddyb73
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“Which game do you prefer owning?”

  • Star Trek (stern) 91 votes
    69%
  • Star Wars (stern) 40 votes
    31%

(131 votes)

There are 85 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

I'm sci-fi nerd and struggling to choose which of these two machines should be my first Stern game. I already have a STTNG which I love, but Stern's ST seems to play very differently. I'd appreciate any thoughts from anyone who has spent considerable time on both tables, and apologies if this has already been covered in another forum, I couldn't find it.

#2 1 year ago

For me it would be SW although ST is a fun one. You can nitpick them to death and personal feelings differ, but man ST is such the similar layout SW is just a bit diff'rent.

Really the scoring plays a big role in it, so if you're not familiar with DOT/SW multiplier rules I would look into that first.
Some people finds it adds a diff'rent spin on the games some don't like them for the same reason.

#3 1 year ago

I’m a Trekkie and SW fan. I have owned STTNG and ST. I don’t own SW but played locally Pro and Premium. Although I loved the theme, I personally tired of ST pretty quickly and sold it. I personally find SW more interesting (more different ways to play it) and engaging (LCD screen and original movie clips beat the heck out of DMD stick figures running). In retrospect, I would have kept STTNG instead of getting ST except that I had a heck of a time keeping mine running ok. STTNG is an awesome game even with DMD limitations.

10
#4 1 year ago

- ST shoots much easier and more nicely than SW.
- ST's code is much simpler to work with compared to SW. Not nearly as much stacking, simpler modes, less multiballs.
- They've both got a lot of modes (if you dig into the level 2 and 3 modes or the away team)
- ST has even more than SW, but I find that when I play ST I end up playing the base modes usually to try to get to Kobayashi Maru, and SW's modes are more unique than ST's which helps the smaller number of modes do more work.
- With ST the differences in the modes mostly works out with you figuring out the best shot patterns to finish them fastest and for most points, but at worst if you just shoot the shots you know you can get through any mode, but in SW if you don't actually know the rules of the modes you can just sit there stuck forever as some require shooting shots within time limits or things like that, so you really need to actually pay attention to the modes.
- Overall ST is much more controllable, especially if you live catch off the orbits and such. Similar to GoT (especially if you ignore the combos) you can usually get the ball under control from almost any shot easily. Meanwhile catching the ball from any of SW's four orbits is much harder, and I find it harder to just bump the ball over or catch it from the ramps. Plus if you want to get a good score you've got to be pelting that three bank regularly. SW is very hard to play in a controlled way to me, you'll spend more time watching the ball bounce around than making shots if you wait for a trap every time
- Some people just absolutely hate SW, while others adore it. I don't think I've ever met anyone who hated ST, but I've never heard as much praise for it as SW either

#5 1 year ago

Man, both are great, you really need to play both to decide. I had STLE for a year and loved it, but sold it to buy a SW pro. Same designer and coder for both, SW is an untamed beast that constantly keeps you on your toes, and has some additional complexity to it with the roving multipliers. ST is a bit more forgiving and has some more "stuff" on the PF. You can't go wrong with either. SW is definitely more polarizing as some people really can't stand it. I'm really happy with my choice to switch, but at least try SW first to make sure it's your cup of tea.

#6 1 year ago

I currently own a Star Trek pro. It’s a very fun pin, but honestly I would rather own a Star Wars pro. I love the theme of Star Wars much more than the new Star Trek. I also like the lcd screen more than the old red dmd. Star Trek is the better shooting pin, but I think Star Wars is more fun

#7 1 year ago

Zacaj gives the best breakdown. I will say the theme integration of SW is second to none, very very engrossing even with the stripped down PF!

#8 1 year ago

Both coded by the same programmers? Not really.

Star Trek: Lonnie D. Ropp, Tanio Klyce, Waison Cheng, Mike Kyzivat, Jack Benson, Dwight Sullivan
Star Wars: Dwight Sullivan and others but mainly Dwight.

Point is, Star Trek was nearly done when Dwight jumped in to add some programming assistance but both games are good!

Quoted from GorillaBiscuits:

Man, both are great, you really need to play both to decide. I had STLE for a year and loved it, but sold it to buy a SW pro. Same designer and coder for both, SW is an untamed beast that constantly keeps you on your toes, and has some additional complexity to it with the roving multipliers. ST is a bit more forgiving and has some more "stuff" on the PF. You can't go wrong with either. SW is definitely more polarizing as some people really can't stand it. I'm really happy with my choice to switch, but at least try SW first to make sure it's your cup of tea.

#9 1 year ago

I would gotta say ST

#10 1 year ago

I vote star trek.

#11 1 year ago

Star Trek cuddles you by the cheeks, and plants a big sloppy kiss right on your lips from the first plunge. Then she slaps you right across the face because your not good enough for her.

After a while ST feels like ESP. You know the shot that will light, and you aim for it, but miss as the pressure builds. There is just something about how the game draws you in. At first it seems lame (hit the lit shot), and then it makes sense. The sounds, the tiers. And plenty to keep you going. Plenty of sub-wizard action for good players, and difficult ones for the world class players. It's just a great game. The music when you destroy the Vengeance is a reward unto itself.

#12 1 year ago

All really good points, many thanks. ST seems way more approachable and traditional in gameplay / layout. I've spent some time on SW and it does seem way more complicated, not necessarily a bad thing depending on the kind of player one is. I much prefer the SW theme...

#13 1 year ago

Star Wars...the theme integration is great and the gameplay is super unique. It'll punch you in the nuts often, but always has that one more game feel. I absolutely love what Ritchie/Dwight has done on these last couple games, so I am a bit biased there.

#14 1 year ago

I own both. Star Trek is very smooth and fun to shoot. Star Wars has better theme integration and music. The shots are harder. Star Wars gets player more.

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from luvthatapex2:

Both coded by the same programmers? Not really.
Star Trek: Lonnie D. Ropp, Tanio Klyce, Waison Cheng, Mike Kyzivat, Jack Benson, Dwight Sullivan
Star Wars: Dwight Sullivan and others but mainly Dwight.

Whoah, cheers for the education

#16 1 year ago

My vote is Star Trek. Nice light show and cool ship toy. Nice flowing shots. Family fun game. SW super fast, short ball times, very limited empty playfield and toys. Pick up a HUO Star Trek for 1000 less.

#17 1 year ago

Interesting I own ST pro and really like it.

Thinking of adding SW most.likely pro model.

#18 1 year ago

Did not care for SW pro at all..... but I did like the prem. Felt so much more complete and looked awesome.

If I had to choose it would be ST pro by a mile for the SAM system alone.

#19 1 year ago

"Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor, not a Pinball Wizard"

Don't have enough time on a SW but watching people destroy Tie Fighters with the lockdown bar button was kindof a turnoff.

#20 1 year ago

ST still has quite a few code issues which have yet to be fixed. It also lacks polish in several key areas. The dots aren't the best and quite frankly suck compared to the LCD on SW. But, having said that I would say ST is the better shooting game. Combos on ST flow nicely whereas on SW not so much. SW also overwhelms with perhaps too many multiballs which can make 4th level missions a bit more tedious than fun.

I sold my ST because I hated the lack of polish the code had. Animations with no sound, bugs in nero 2 still, broken pop values, lack of black hole values and the less than stellar away team implementation. It also still has a game crashing bug which Stern knows about, but have not released a fix in almost 2 years.

Rob

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from Rob_G:

ST medals are more obtainable and usable

How do you “use” the medals in ST? They only add points from what I’ve ever seen.

I voted ST, but afterwards realized I have no time on SW with the new code so I probably shouldn’t have voted with only playing the early SW code.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

How do you “use” the medals in ST? They only add points from what I’ve ever seen.
I voted ST, but afterwards realized I have no time on SW with the new code so I probably shouldn’t have voted with only playing the early SW code.

Yes, just points. Medals also exist in SW, but are far more difficult to get because you need to make all the shots in the victory multiball.

From another forum:
"Victory Multiball: Completing any of the Wizard modes for each planet will begin a Victory Multiball round. Complete every shot on the playfield to win a Medal; completing them again will advance the Medal from Bronze to Silver to Gold. The higher ranked your Medals are, the more score you obtain at the beginning of the final Wizard Mode for completing the modes."

I'm going to change the outlane posts on my SWLE to the lowest position.

Rob

#23 1 year ago

I love my star trek, played the star wars....very empty and still needs a lot of work to be good.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from Rob_G:

ST still has quite a few code issues which have yet to be fixed. It also lacks polish in several key areas. The dots aren't the best and quite frankly suck compared to the LCD on SW. But, having said that I would say ST is the better shooting game. Combos on ST flow nicely whereas on SW not so much. SW also overwhelms with perhaps too many multiballs which can make 4th level missions a bit more tedious than fun.
I sold my ST because I hated the lack of polish the code had. Animations with no sound, bugs in nero 2 still, broken pop values, lack of black hole values and the less than stellar away team implementation. It also still has a game crashing bug which Stern knows about, but have not released a fix in almost 2 years.
Rob

I agree Rob_G . But I am not good enough to get to past the end of the game . That is were you run into the "invalid" Crash mode I will never see it. But it does show that STERN should have addressed the last wizard mode when you get to 'Invalid mission" I vote SW pro only for all the same RGB Color changing inserts and choreographed GI lighting that is the same on The SWLE . As for ST pro the missing RGB color changing insert and the laser beam KMball light show and all the other armor upgrades / Kickass Back glass . LE or bust for ST . Go with SW pro .

#25 1 year ago

Star Trek for me (I own one). I did play a SW pro, but not enough stuff on playfield.

#26 1 year ago

Agree with most of the comments. Just sold my ST pro after owning it for around 3 years. It's a fun shooting game but does lack that polish that really makes a game shine. If Stern just addressed a few bugs/issues the game would one of the best. Starting modes is fairly difficult and that gets frustrating when the entire game is about the modes. There is really nothing to do when not in a mode other than shoot the Vengeance. My other big complaint was the level 1 mode timers. They are fairly long to begin with and then the timers stop when the ball is in the pops or when you cradle so you can't time out the mode. If you hit the black hole target or do the away team alternative mode, the timer is extended even longer. You can make the mode ends when you get a gold metal but that still takes a lot of shots. The level 2 and 3 modes are a little more interesting and some of them can be completed quickly. Best part of the game is the layout. Great flow and the warp shot is the best in pinball. Vengeance modes are great and overall a solid game. Medals made the game better but only give you points. To get a lot of points, play out a lot of level 2 and 3 modes before finishing the level 1 modes. Get 2x going and then start Koby Maru to get big points for all the medals you earned.

I didn't like SW on the reveal. After actually playing it, I have changed my mind. It's a really fun game. It may lack a few toys but you don't think about that when playing it. Shots all feel good and it plays fast. The shot multiplier feature adds a lot to gameplay and forces you to take you hands off the flippers to move them. I love games that do that. I don't think the theme is that well integrated but it still a great fun game. The display looks really good and code feels pretty complete to me. I vote SW but that may be because the game is still new. Still, I think it's more interesting to play with more variety. Wish it had a third flipper, though. Last game Stern did with a third flipper was ST.

#27 1 year ago

I'm firmly in the Star Trek camp. I have one and love the shots. I have played Star Wars quite a bit on location but never have a feel for what I am supposed to do. I guess it just depends on how deep you need the game to be to enjoy it.

#28 1 year ago

As much as it pains me to say it (I'm a HUGE Star Wars fan), Star Trek absolutely destroys Star Wars. The layout is far superior, and the code actually makes sense for the layout. Star Wars layers and stacks modes, hurry ups, progress towards modes, multipliers, action button instances, and more all while throwing a game at you that's always at breakneck speed. It doesn't make sense to put such heavily layered code on a game that never gives you a chance to make measured actions.

Star Wars somehow feels like there are things missing while still feeling like there's too much going on at the same time; and it makes for a frustrating experience. When playing Star Wars, it feels more like you're just surviving through three balls. It's not that the game is hard, because it's not that difficult to progress through, but it's just hyper speed all the time on the physical end while the code is asking you to make deliberate decisions. It really makes no sense.

Star Trek, on the other hand, has a fantastic layout that tempers its speed enough that you can actually look at the game's indicators and properly play modes, hurry ups, and sequences that involve the action button. It can also get very fast, but it isn't always full throttle. There is WAY MORE strategy in approaching the different modes and multiballs in Star Trek than Star Wars as well. It's just all around better code and a better layout. They are so much more of a cohesive experience and feed off one another rather than clash and fight against each other like on Star Wars.

Can you enjoy Star Wars? Sure. I can see how some people might like that frantic madness, but I would say that Star Trek is objectively a better pinball machine. It feels so much better planned out and so much more carefully crafted on both the physical and software sides of things.

#29 1 year ago

I own a DE Star Wars (My first game). I've had it over 20 years. I own a ST pro (NIB). I love both themes. I wanted to get a new SW to put by my old SW. I've played a bunch on games on SW pro pin. I've done this a few times on a few different SW pro games.
For some reason I can't fall in love with it. I want to, but haven't. I'm going to play a Premium or LE to see if that will help. Right now I like ST more.

#30 1 year ago

I own both Pros and I'd really have a hard time picking one over the other. They are both awesome themes and that goes a long way with me. Play-wise they are just sooo different and I love how both play.

If I had to keep just one... I'd probably pick Star Wars only because I've played it less.

#31 1 year ago
Quoted from jawjaw:

Agree with most of the comments. Just sold my ST pro after owning it for around 3 years. It's a fun shooting game but does lack that polish that really makes a game shine. If Stern just addressed a few bugs/issues the game would one of the best. Starting modes is fairly difficult and that gets frustrating when the entire game is about the modes. There is really nothing to do when not in a mode other than shoot the Vengeance. My other big complaint was the level 1 mode timers. They are fairly long to begin with and then the timers stop when the ball is in the pops or when you cradle so you can't time out the mode. If you hit the black hole target or do the away team alternative mode, the timer is extended even longer. You can make the mode ends when you get a gold metal but that still takes a lot of shots. The level 2 and 3 modes are a little more interesting and some of them can be completed quickly. Best part of the game is the layout. Great flow and the warp shot is the best in pinball. Vengeance modes are great and overall a solid game. Medals made the game better but only give you points. To get a lot of points, play out a lot of level 2 and 3 modes before finishing the level 1 modes. Get 2x going and then start Koby Maru to get big points for all the medals you earned.
I didn't like SW on the reveal. After actually playing it, I have changed my mind. It's a really fun game. It may lack a few toys but you don't think about that when playing it. Shots all feel good and it plays fast. The shot multiplier feature adds a lot to gameplay and forces you to take you hands off the flippers to move them. I love games that do that. I don't think the theme is that well integrated but it still a great fun game. The display looks really good and code feels pretty complete to me. I vote SW but that may be because the game is still new. Still, I think it's more interesting to play with more variety. Wish it had a third flipper, though. Last game Stern did with a third flipper was ST.

At the risk of being jumped on by 50 people that say "play better" or say "I suck and even I can make those shots", I agree with the comment that starting modes on ST is fairly difficult and that can get frustrating when the entire game is about the modes.

#32 1 year ago

Star trek has a great layout nice and smooth love the wide shots and warp ramp, however the modes are fairly samey and dull. Still a great game to play and have some fun.

Star wars, the layout is good as well, not as interesting as trek, but the code/rules is much more complex which for me makes it more fun in a home collection and longer lasting.

#33 1 year ago
Quoted from tbanthony:

At the risk of being jumped on by 50 people that say "play better" or say "I suck and even I can make those shots", I agree with the comment that starting modes on ST is fairly difficult and that can get frustrating when the entire game is about the modes.

But that is the whole idea behind those mode start shots. Outside of modes, the game is nothing. But the shots to start them are both tough and let some crazy bounces happen where you risk draining off the target on the left, or slamming the door shut with the upper flipper. Maybe you lose the ball, maybe you start a mode. Good stuff... just play better

#34 1 year ago

I dont even really care for ST as a theme at all, but damn is Stern ST a fun game.

#35 1 year ago

"just play better"... See, I knew it

#36 1 year ago
Quoted from DaveH:

But that is the whole idea behind those mode start shots. Outside of modes, the game is nothing. But the shots to start them are both tough and let some crazy bounces happen where you risk draining off the target on the left, or slamming the door shut with the upper flipper. Maybe you lose the ball, maybe you start a mode. Good stuff... just play better

Both the left mode start and the away team shot are fantastic shots. Very cool use of the full width of the playfield.

#37 1 year ago
Quoted from jar155:

Both the left mode start and the away team shot are fantastic shots. Very cool use of the full width of the playfield.

Even though Away Team is dumb. The reason I say that is because it only affects level 1 missions. After that, it's just a regular mission start.

Rob

#38 1 year ago

Really appreciate everyone's thoughts. I'm somewhat new to the hobby and still kinda suck, but what worries me about SW is how insanely short ball time is every time I play -seems almost impossible for me to control the ball. Maybe it's a totally different experience in the home where you can spend days / weeks/ months on it? I'm not too worried about rules, TZ was my first table which was overwhelming at first but didn't take too long to master. I love the strategy behind the shots - you need pinpoint accuracy or you get punished so controlling the ball seems to be the only way to beat the game IMO. I guess my question is, do you have to be a pro player to really enjoy SW and have respectable games?

#39 1 year ago

I think it's safe to say SW is an Intermediate to Advanced game, but it'll make you better. Super fast, lots of nudging/bumping, and complex rules.

#40 1 year ago

I owned STTNG and STLE for awhile and couldn't justify having both in a ~20 pin collection at the time. They do shoot differently, but for me, STTNG is a classic and STLE was just "ok". Big caveat: I was an early adopter and the code was half-baked at the time. I also didn't like the "dots" and all the modes seemed too similar. It is definitely a smooth shooting game.

SWLE is really fast. Rule set is deep & unique. The theme integration rocks. Makes you a better player.

You don't have to be a "pro", but it makes you earn your multi-balls, that's for sure.

snaroff

#41 1 year ago
Quoted from jar155:

As much as it pains me to say it (I'm a HUGE Star Wars fan), Star Trek absolutely destroys Star Wars. The layout is far superior, and the code actually makes sense for the layout. Star Wars layers and stacks modes, hurry ups, progress towards modes, multipliers, action button instances, and more all while throwing a game at you that's always at breakneck speed. It doesn't make sense to put such heavily layered code on a game that never gives you a chance to make measured actions.
Star Wars somehow feels like there are things missing while still feeling like there's too much going on at the same time; and it makes for a frustrating experience. When playing Star Wars, it feels more like you're just surviving through three balls. It's not that the game is hard, because it's not that difficult to progress through, but it's just hyper speed all the time on the physical end while the code is asking you to make deliberate decisions. It really makes no sense.
Star Trek, on the other hand, has a fantastic layout that tempers its speed enough that you can actually look at the game's indicators and properly play modes, hurry ups, and sequences that involve the action button. It can also get very fast, but it isn't always full throttle. There is WAY MORE strategy in approaching the different modes and multiballs in Star Trek than Star Wars as well. It's just all around better code and a better layout. They are so much more of a cohesive experience and feed off one another rather than clash and fight against each other like on Star Wars.
Can you enjoy Star Wars? Sure. I can see how some people might like that frantic madness, but I would say that Star Trek is objectively a better pinball machine. It feels so much better planned out and so much more carefully crafted on both the physical and software sides of things.

How could anything you wrote deserve a downvote let alone 5! Very well written.

#42 1 year ago

Star Trek is a lot of fun. Star Wars, I felt let down by the sparse playfield and the art upon the reveal. However, after playing this game. The action, flow, light show, rules and sound. Star Wars is above Star Trek. ST is very good. SW is excellent.

#43 1 year ago
Quoted from adamross:

Really appreciate everyone's thoughts. I'm somewhat new to the hobby and still kinda suck, but what worries me about SW is how insanely short ball time is every time I play -seems almost impossible for me to control the ball. Maybe it's a totally different experience in the home where you can spend days / weeks/ months on it? I'm not too worried about rules, TZ was my first table which was overwhelming at first but didn't take too long to master. I love the strategy behind the shots - you need pinpoint accuracy or you get punished so controlling the ball seems to be the only way to beat the game IMO. I guess my question is, do you have to be a pro player to really enjoy SW and have respectable games?

looking at your collection, I'd go with Star Wars. The advanced gameplay will compliment your easier games and hopefully, theoretically, give it some good longevity as it will take a long time to master. Lots of strategies, ways to play, and scoring opportunities. Would fit well next to your others. However, have you thought about the premium? having that hyperdrive in a home environment would be a blast...at least I think it would.

#44 1 year ago
Quoted from Eskaybee:

looking at your collection, I'd go with Star Wars. The advanced gameplay will compliment your easier games and hopefully, theoretically, give it some good longevity as it will take a long time to master. Lots of strategies, ways to play, and scoring opportunities. Would fit well next to your others. However, have you thought about the premium? having that hyperdrive in a home environment would be a blast...at least I think it would.

Good point re: fitting into my collection. I've played an LE and loved the hyperdrive but didn't really think it justified the 2k premium.

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from adamross:

Good point re: fitting into my collection. I've played an LE and loved the hyperdrive but didn't really think it justified the 2k premium.

DONT THINK JUST DO.

THIS IS PINBALL MAN!

#46 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

How could anything you wrote deserve a downvote let alone 5! Very well written.

It's pretty simple, many people disagree with his statement. I also don't think it pains him to say it either or he would be in constant pain. It seems like him and Rarehero were members of Hydra. Once the Rarehero head was cut off another must rise up and state how terrible a stern game is over and over and over.

#47 1 year ago
Quoted from Rondogg:

How could anything you wrote deserve a downvote let alone 5! Very well written.

Because 'destroys' implies that SW isn't a good game or ST is one of the best games ever. Neither is true in my opinion. Both have their strengths and weaknesses.

Rob

#48 1 year ago
Quoted from adamross:

Good point re: fitting into my collection. I've played an LE and loved the hyperdrive but didn't really think it justified the 2k premium.

Very little, if anything justifies a premium in pinball. Games are priced to the nuts whether warranted or not. Pinball is a luxury item after all, not a necessity of life.... (or is it?). Spend what you are able to or want to. Or save a bit and buy used. There's very little for cheap alternative unfortunately.

Rob

#49 1 year ago
Quoted from jar155:

As much as it pains me to say it (I'm a HUGE Star Wars fan), Star Trek absolutely destroys Star Wars. The layout is far superior, and the code actually makes sense for the layout. Star Wars layers and stacks modes, hurry ups, progress towards modes, multipliers, action button instances, and more all while throwing a game at you that's always at breakneck speed. It doesn't make sense to put such heavily layered code on a game that never gives you a chance to make measured actions.
Star Wars somehow feels like there are things missing while still feeling like there's too much going on at the same time; and it makes for a frustrating experience. When playing Star Wars, it feels more like you're just surviving through three balls. It's not that the game is hard, because it's not that difficult to progress through, but it's just hyper speed all the time on the physical end while the code is asking you to make deliberate decisions. It really makes no sense.
Star Trek, on the other hand, has a fantastic layout that tempers its speed enough that you can actually look at the game's indicators and properly play modes, hurry ups, and sequences that involve the action button. It can also get very fast, but it isn't always full throttle. There is WAY MORE strategy in approaching the different modes and multiballs in Star Trek than Star Wars as well. It's just all around better code and a better layout. They are so much more of a cohesive experience and feed off one another rather than clash and fight against each other like on Star Wars.
Can you enjoy Star Wars? Sure. I can see how some people might like that frantic madness, but I would say that Star Trek is objectively a better pinball machine. It feels so much better planned out and so much more carefully crafted on both the physical and software sides of things.

I think you have a different definition of the word “objectively” than I do, because that sounded like a subjective opinion to me.

#50 1 year ago

Star Trek was my first pinball purchase. I played that game to death, over 2,000 plays. It is a great game, but it definitely gets old with the repeative nature of the level 1 modes. The 2nd and 3rd level wizard modes (Enterprise amock and 5 year mission) are not reallly attainable unless you are Keith Elwin on three ball play. I now have owned a Star Wars Pro, and then a Star Wars Premium. The gameplay and code on Star Wars is superior to Star Trek for me. That isn’t saying that Star Trek is bad, it isn’t, but Star Wars with the latest code release has now simply surpassed it. The LCD clip integration, sound package and the code are all MUCH better than Star Trek.

Star Wars is truly a great game at this point, despite what a smaller and smaller group of haters continue to say.

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