(Topic ID: 124988)

Star Trek Next Generation (STTNG) Locate Ball Problem - Stuck in Loop

By halomojo

9 years ago


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  • 116 posts
  • 19 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 8 years ago by halomojo
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There are 116 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 9 years ago

I'm having a strange issue today with my recently shopped STTNG. It's been playing perfectly but today during Borg Multiball, when shooting a jackpot in the "start mission" hole, the ball would not kick out on the left lane. The machine would go into ball search 2 or 3 times and then kick the ball into the lane leading to the left flipper to continue play. If you shot the jackpot again, the same thing would happen.

We let the game end to see if this problem would happen again. Now here is the bigger problem. When starting the machine, it will position two balls to where they need to be on the playfield (this is normal), however, it is now stuck in an endless loop.

- Ball Kicks Into Ball Launch Trough
- Ball launches and whips around into Lock Hole behind Borg ship
- Ball Kicks out to feed left flipper and drains
- Repeat endlessly.

I am unable to start a game because when I press start it says "Locating Balls"

Any ideas? Thanks!

#2 9 years ago

Update: I just tried starting another game and if you press start at just the right time while it's doing the endless loop of plunging a ball to the lock and then emptying one into the left flipper lane, you can actually start a game.

- Ball will never empty into the cannons (Battle Simulation just emptys ball into left flipper lane. If you shoot either mission start hole or neutral zone hole, they both just empty to the left flipper lane, not the L or R cannon.

- During Borg Multiball, the ball never feeds to the cannons to wear down the borg ship. It only empties to the left flipper lane and Multiball never technically starts. You can play out the borg multiball mode, but since you never shot the initial cannon shot, ball 2 and ball 3 do never come into play.

#3 9 years ago

Seems like one of the under pf diverter does not work .
Go into coil test and check if all coils work .

#4 9 years ago

Just checked. These 4 were not firing:

- UNDER DIV TOP
- UNDER DIV BOT
- DROP UP
- DROP DOWN

I'm pretty new at working on pins. Do you know what I would check to correct these issues?

#5 9 years ago

Those all get power through F103 so I would check the fuse first. If the fuse is fine then check J4 on the 8-driver pcb.

#6 9 years ago

*DISCLAIMER* I just made a seriously rookie mistake, please don't hate me :/ Just checked Fuse 103 and it was in fact blown. I replaced it with (what I thought) was a 3A fuse but turned out to be a 15A fuse. Fired the game up. It searched for balls for 2 tries and then let me start the game. Right off the bat it launched two balls and was generally acting funny. Here's the rough part.

After about 30 seconds I heard a faint sizzle and smelled a strange burning smell. Well, it turns out that I fried the problematic coil that wasn't diverting the balls beneath the playfield as it should. Here are some photos:

IMG_0199.jpgIMG_0199.jpg

IMG_0201.jpgIMG_0201.jpg

IMG_0202.jpgIMG_0202.jpg

IMG_0196.jpgIMG_0196.jpg

IMG_0195.jpgIMG_0195.jpg

sttng10.pngsttng10.png

So now it looks like I need a new coil. I looked at all of the connectors and thankfully nothing looks burnt up, but the coil is definitely fried. I couldn't even push the Coil Plunger part into the coil.

#7 9 years ago

Live and learn. We've all made dumb mistakes at one time or another, and I've made a few long after I was in the rookie category.

The coil and sleeve need to be replaced obviously. Check the driver transistor for that coil and see if it is shorted (causing the coil to lock on). All of the problems need to be fixed at the same time or you're going to just keep blowing stuff.

The solenoid table in the manual will provide info on which driver transistor relates to that coil. If the driver transistor is shorted you should also replace the pre-driver just as a precaution.

#8 9 years ago

I've been looking in the manual to figure out what parts I need to order and I'm not sure that I'm looking at it correctly. Is it the Divertor Assembly?

http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2357/Williams_1993_Star_Trek_The_Next_Generation_Operations_Manual_with_OCR.pdf (page 76?)

Here is the full list of parts from the U-Trough Assembly.

A-17078 U-Trough Assembly

1. A-15605 Drop Tgt. Stop Bracket Assy.
2. A-16566 Divertor Actuator Shaft Assy.
3. A-17124 Divertor Plate
4. A-17079 Trough Liner
5. A-17268 Divertor Assembly
6. A-17631 Divertor Shaft Staked Assembly
7. 01-10225 Coil Mounting Bracket
8. 01-11809 Thrust Cap
9. 01-11810 Thrust Cap
10. 02-4831 Shaft Divertor Actuator
11. 02-4898 Strike Pin
12. 03-8960 Plastic Trough
13. 03-9008 Trough Cover
14. 03-9009 Trough Cover
15. 01-11856 Trough Cover Bracket
16. 01-11908 Hanger Bracket
17. 01-11909 Hanger Bracket
18. 01-11910 Hanger Bracket
19. 01-11911 Hanger Bracket
20. 01-11912 Hanger Bracket
21. H-17010-1 Big Trough Cable

#9 9 years ago

Yeah the manual only seem to show one of the divertors A-16763, although AFAIK they all use the same type of coil AE-25-1000.

Strangely from your pictures the burnt coil wrapper seem to show a different type which indicate it's been replaced before and possibly with the wrong type. This could actually have something to do with why/if the driver transistor shorted and subsequently fried the coil.

#10 9 years ago

You will also most likely need the coil liner: 03-7066. I presume it will be the same for both diverters.

#11 9 years ago

And a TIP102 transistor and some fuses.

#12 9 years ago

Thanks for the tips!

so here's what I've got in the cart:

(1) AE-25-1000 Coil
(1) 03-7066 1-3/4" Coil Sleeve
(1) TIP102 Transistor
(a bunch) 3A Slow Blow Fuses

Anything else I'm missing?

#13 9 years ago

I had a similar issue a few months ago:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-burned-up-subway-coil

Note: It might depend on where you order your coil from but sometimes they include the coil sleeve when you buy a new coil.

#14 9 years ago

I would also order the pre-driver transistor: 2N4403. They will often get blown if the driver transistor shorts. Order a few of each transistor just in case.

#15 9 years ago
Quoted from pinballYeti:

I had a similar issue a few months ago:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/sttng-burned-up-subway-coil
Note: It might depend on where you order your coil from but sometimes they include the coil sleeve when you buy a new coil.

Perfect! Thanks so much for the advice. This one really scared me.

#16 9 years ago

You are gonna need to replace the stuff as mentioned on the aux driver board, and MAKE SURE the tie back wire on the coil is good and connected, otherwise this will happen all over again. VERY common problem on STTNG.

More info here:

http://kcpins.com/archives/542

#17 9 years ago

The temp fix for this problem is to go into the menu and set RT Launcher & LT Launcher to BROKEN. This is how my STTNG is currently operating while a new coil is on order.

#18 9 years ago

Excellent! Thanks again. I'm ordering the parts now. I'll keep you posted on the progress.

#19 9 years ago

Parts arrived today but I have a few questions.

1) How do I actually remove the burnt up coil? I can't move the metal arm in and out of the coil in its current state. Here's a photo:

392596-i.jpg392596-i.jpg

2) I pulled out the board with the TIP102 Transistor and the 2N4403. Not sure which ones to replace. In a previous post, someone else said to replace Q16 and Q8. It looks like they've been replaced previously. Also, am I supposed to bend the legs to connect them to the circuit board tracks? Photos:

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IMG_0208.jpgIMG_0208.jpg
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3) I also noticed that Fuse 112 - 7A - S.B was blown. This is for "Secondary Solenoid." Do you think this was blown up by the same issue?

Thanks!

#20 9 years ago
Quoted from halomojo:

Just checked Fuse 103 and it was in fact blown. I replaced it with (what I thought) was a 3A fuse but turned out to be a 15A fuse.

Quoted from halomojo:

I also noticed that Fuse 112 - 7A - S.B was blown. This is for "Secondary Solenoid." Do you think this was blown up by the same issue?

Yes, because F103 was heavy overfused, F112 has now blown (luckily). But the reason can also be a failed bridge rectifier (Br.3 on PDB) due to the large current flow.

F112-103.PNGF112-103.PNG

sttng sol37.jpgsttng sol37.jpg

#21 9 years ago

Thanks for that info. Any idea on these two?

1) How do I actually remove the burnt up coil? I can't move the metal arm in and out of the coil in its current state. Here's a photo:

394799.jpg394799.jpg

2) I pulled out the board with the TIP102 Transistor and the 2N4403. Not sure which ones to replace. In a previous post, someone else said to replace Q16 and Q8. It looks like they've been replaced previously. Also, am I supposed to bend the legs to connect them to the circuit board tracks? Photos:

IMG_0218.jpgIMG_0218.jpg

IMG_0208.jpgIMG_0208.jpg

IMG_0209.jpgIMG_0209.jpg

IMG_0211.jpgIMG_0211.jpg

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#22 9 years ago
Quoted from halomojo:

1) How do I actually remove the burnt up coil?

arrow.jpgarrow.jpg
remove 4 nuts
loosen inbus with Allen wrench
desolder wires
remove mechanism
use brute force

Quoted from halomojo:

2) I pulled out the board with the TIP102 Transistor and the 2N4403. Not sure which ones to replace.

circle.jpgcircle.jpg

In my previous picture they where already circled in red, but I can not give advice how to repair this board.

#23 9 years ago

Thanks once again! Yeah, the board looks strange with those connecting bits on there. I didn't know if it was supposed to be like that. I would assume not, but it looks confusing to me!

#24 9 years ago

First my words of caution: If you are not experienced in board rework, you take a risk of making things worse with a board in that condition. It's hard enough to work on a virgin board let alone one that has been previously, and poorly, repaired. In fact it is probably beyond what most board guys would even touch (not that they couldn't do it, just not worth the trouble) so replacement should be a consideration.

If you want to repair the board yourself the proper way would be to install eyelets (to replace all the destroyed through-holes) and run proper jumpers (those bare wires are not acceptable).

The fast and dirty way would be to bend the transistor leads over as they are now. Once you've done that you will need to wring out all of those circuits and make sure you have across and through board connectivity and no shorts (before you put power on the board)

#25 9 years ago
Quoted from zaza:

remove 4 nuts
loosen inbus with Allen wrench
desolder wires
remove mechanism
use brute force

In my previous picture they where already circled in red, but I can not give advice how to repair this board.

There's no need to remove or loosen the plunger from the diverter shaft. Just the bottom screws to loosen the plunger stop, then the coil can be desoldered. The coil and coilsleeve can be discarded and replaced for a new one.

I'd suggest someone else to look at the boardwork though. Is the tieback wire even attached or physically available on the droptarget?

#26 9 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

First my words of caution: If you are not experienced in board rework, you take a risk of making things worse with a board in that condition. It's hard enough to work on a virgin board let alone one that has been previously, and poorly, repaired. In fact it is probably beyond what most board guys would even touch (not that they couldn't do it, just not worth the trouble) so replacement should be a consideration.
If you want to repair the board yourself the proper way would be to install eyelets (to replace all the destroyed through-holes) and run proper jumpers (those bare wires are not acceptable).
The fast and dirty way would be to bend the transistor leads over as they are now. Once you've done that you will need to wring out all of those circuits and make sure you have across and through board connectivity and no shorts (before you put power on the board)

Said it before me: I would just buy a new board and be done with it. I am usually all about fixing or having a board repaired.....But DAMN.....

#27 9 years ago

Also, make sure you remove the diode from the new coil before installing. STNNG does not need diodes on the coils as the diodes are on the boards. Leaving the diode on the coil, you risk installing it backwards and blowing fuses/transistors again.

You sure picked a bad board to try and repair the first time. If you attempt the repair yourself, take lots of pictures and put the new components in EXACTLY the same way the old ones were connected.

#28 9 years ago

Going to drop in here and say the manual and schematics are your friend. It is so easy to get overwhelmed by the PCBs and the moving parts of the machine that you can easily forget the best resource that you have.

I'm not competent in board repair, but one day I will be. Spend some time with the circuit and wiring schematic section of your manual and you can easily trace how every part of the machine is powered and see exactly where that power is coming from. Pinside is the best resource on the internet and has helped me with a great many problems with my machines. Over time I have found that the solutions to problems were at my fingertips I was just too overwhelmed to look and find them.

Good luck with your repair, ST:TNG is a killer pin!

#29 9 years ago

A few updates. I soldered in the new coil for the bottom diverter, replaced Q15, Q16, and Q8 on the A-16100 8-Driver PCB Assembly, and made sure all fuses are good (and correct values).

Now the Under Diverter TOP will fire, but not the bottom. These three do not function during the solenoid test, but all others work.

38. UNDER DIV BOT
39. DROP UP
40. DROP DN

#30 9 years ago

Do you have voltage at 38, 39 and 40?

#31 9 years ago

Just checked all 3 coils. They do have voltage.

#32 9 years ago

Are you sure you didn't "lose" a jumper while installing the new components or damage a trace or through-hole?

I would ring-out the circuit for the solenoids that aren't working and make sure you've got across board and through board connectivity.

Can you post a picture of the work done?

#33 9 years ago

When you say "lose a jumper" what do you mean exactly? I repaired the board the "quick and dirty" way figuring that if this board is toast, it can't get any worse and I'd just be replacing it anyways. I bent the transistor leads over to their respective homes and soldered. I did a clean job of it even though it's not ideal.

#34 9 years ago
Quoted from halomojo:

When you say "lose a jumper" what do you mean exactly?

While soldering a transistor one of the jumpers came loose and is no longer attached.

As I said before start ringing out the circuit. If you're not comfortable with reading the schematic then I would buy a new board.

Based on the condition of the board before you started I would suspect a trace, jumper or through-hole problem.

#35 9 years ago

I went ahead and ordered a replacement board just so I can be sure that's not the culprit. Fingers crossed it solves the problem! Should be here in 2 days.

#36 8 years ago

Update. Just installed the replacement board. Now all Solenoids are firing, so it corrected these guys not firing:

38. UNDER DIV BOT
39. DROP UP
40. DROP DN

However, the machine is still stuck in the same loop that I describe in my first post. Before you start a game the machine is trying to place balls.

1. Ball Pops into Plunger Trough
2. Launches up and around past drop target
3. Pops out of left return ramp and drains
4. Repeat endlessly

After the ball drops behind the borg ship, you can hear a hum like a coil is trying to turn on (just a guess, not really sure how to describe the sound). When I run the solenoid test, everything is working properly.

Any ideas?

#37 8 years ago

You need to look at the coil for the drop target. Verify you have solid connections for ALL the wires. Post some pics if needed.

That hum you hear is probably a locked-on coil. (At least that is what I hear when it happens to me.)

#38 8 years ago

I had the same problem, minus the diverter noise. For what it's worth, I found two issues. Both related to the ball trough opto board. First, my power to the board was flaky due to a bad connector. After I got that straightened out, I found that one of the transmitting optos was out. I replaced the trough opto boards with the upgraded GLM boards. A quick check for this would be to go into switch edges and drop one ball into the empty ball trough. Watch and make sure all optos trigger in a row.

#39 8 years ago

Double post. Stupid phone.

#40 8 years ago

^^ this ... and you replaced the diverter coils and hear them engaging. But are the diverter mechs doing their job?
Are they moving freely ? Those get gunked up at times.

#41 8 years ago

Checked out a few things after work today:

1) Drop target coil is functioning correctly in both the up/down positions

2) Ran the switch edge test and let a ball drain. All 6 switches "engaged." 1,2,3,4,5,6 in rapid succession. The then dropped in the other 5 balls and all switches are functioning correctly.

3) Diverter mechs are both moving freely and operate normally during solenoid test.

I took a video so that you can see/hear what's going:

#42 8 years ago

Maybe tighten the inbus and/or adjust top diverter , it looks like it doesn't direct the ball to the right.

#43 8 years ago
Quoted from halomojo:

Checked out a few things after work today:
1) Drop target coil is functioning correctly in both the up/down positions
2) Ran the switch edge test and let a ball drain. All 6 switches "engaged." 1,2,3,4,5,6 in rapid succession. The then dropped in the other 5 balls and all switches are functioning correctly.
3) Diverter mechs are both moving freely and operate normally during solenoid test.
I took a video so that you can see/hear what's going:
» YouTube video

You could perhaps post a pic of the SW Edges test screen.

If the loading of balls were successfull, SW optos 41, 36, 37 and 64-66 should be off.

Also I believe if you drop a ball into Top hole (behind the droptarget) you should see SW 45 and 46 briefly flicker as the ball rolls down the subway.

#44 8 years ago

Definitely check the top divertor to make sure it's tight and is activating to send the ball to the right.
I had to adjust mine twice since I've owned it due to the allen screws loosening up over time. When they loosen the divertor arm won't swing over far enough to push the ball to the right.

#45 8 years ago
Quoted from ksmmspt:

Definitely check the top divertor to make sure it's tight and is activating to send the ball to the right.
I had to adjust mine twice since I've owned it due to the allen screws loosening up over time. When they loosen the divertor arm won't swing over far enough to push the ball to the right.

Just checked the screws, they're both super tight and I ran the solenoid test with the playfield up so I could see them all firing, they're both doing their job, so it's very strange.

#46 8 years ago
Quoted from mrq:

You could perhaps post a pic of the SW Edges test screen.
If the loading of balls were successfull, SW optos 41, 36, 37 and 64-66 should be off.
Also I believe if you drop a ball into Top hole (behind the droptarget) you should see SW 45 and 46 briefly flicker as the ball rolls down the subway.

I just took a video of the switch test when you drop the ball down behind the drop target.

#47 8 years ago

Excellent video, unfortunately though SW 45-46 seems to react as they should, so that doesn't seem to be the problem.

And it shows the right gun popper doesn't get a ball, else SW 37 should be off, it's not.

Just to be sure you could try and drop a ball down the right gun popper and SW 37 should turn off. This should also stop the ball loadnig cycle.

#48 8 years ago

And as you already verified the divertors work in solenoid test, one suggestion could be to do a U8 Factory reset if you haven't already tried that, keep in mind though you'll probably loose your high scores doing that.

#49 8 years ago

Have you checked the mechanics of the diverter coils to ensure in addition to the coil firing, the diverter is swinging completely?

Have you checked all the subway optos? If they are not working, it can direct the ball into the wrong place and/or not detect that the ball is in the right place. When I have subway opto problems, I get the exact same behavior as you are seeing.

For me, the problem was the switch matrix connector on the opto board. I would jiggle or reseat that connector and it would work for a while.

#50 8 years ago
Quoted from mrq:

And as you already verified the divertors work in solenoid test, one suggestion could be to do a U8 Factory reset if you haven't already tried that, keep in mind though you'll probably loose your high scores doing that.

Just tried the Factory Reset, unfortunately, no change.

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