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(Topic ID: 65064)

Star Trek Arrived. Impressions.


By markmon

7 years ago



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  • 301 posts
  • 100 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 years ago by RobT
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There are 301 posts in this topic. You are on page 5 of 7.
#201 7 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Yup, and I like both. (TNG has no shortage of toys)

Yes, but it was a wide body too....and that affects flow.

#202 7 years ago
Quoted from smassa:

Shocked that you don't love the latest Stern.

Jack saw ST PRO and he liked it.

#203 7 years ago

Red or Blue or even the old Orange. It is very subjective on the person's own taste as well as we all do not see colors or should I say our brains do not react to color inputs the same. It would be a cool idea if the pro game was shipped with a standard color, and ordering a premium or LE the buyer was given a choice, this would also justify the price increase. Also mentioning that who or why we would buy a game that doesn't have a code completed as no other product would be acceptable in the market. Well we have many products that we buy that are not completed and the one major difference is that we the public just accept it, lets look at the very tools we use to get to this post. Windows has for decades shipped with incomplete codes, and constant revisions, and we continue to buy unstable platforms. The auto industry has for years shipped vehicles out to the public just to turn around and have recalls and technical bulletins to update. Pinball makers have always tried to produce one or two models a year because the consumer demands and tires of current items. I don't think the pinball business or hobbyist would accept or wait three to four years for a product to be "completed" before releasing.

#204 7 years ago

There's no issue with "flow" on STTNG because of the fact that it's a widebody. Close to zero. Ritchie even went out of his way to have all the poppers preloaded to make the game as fast as humanly possible under most circumstances. The cannons slow things down far more than anything else on that game. If it's playing slow, it's because it ain't set up right, or the player isn't making the shots.

Both games play surprisingly differently from what I can tell after only 2 games on Star Trek (NTNG)

#205 7 years ago
Quoted from smassa:

What don't u see?

The comparison of ST to SM and the "interaction" and "toys", lighting blows it away, items to interact with and toys versus SM, not even close..........

#206 7 years ago

Met Pro to me is the least cheap looking pro ever. Metal and wireform ramps with great artwork. Haven't played ST yet so we will see. Also the code on ST reminds me a little of XM which gives me shudders!

#207 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

The comparison of ST to SM and the "interaction" and "toys", lighting blows it away, items to interact with and toys versus SM, not even close..........

You've said it twice now, but haven't mentioned a single fact once.

How about listing them for us? Shouldn't be hard since it's "not even close".

#208 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

You've said it twice now, but haven't mentioned a single fact once.

How about listing them for us? Shouldn't be hard since it's "not even close".

Uhhh....how about you listing it for us? It's so clear its a waste of time.........

The "facts" speak for themselves......you aren't seriously comparing the "toy" (singular) and interaction therewith to SM?

Doesn't "interaction" require some code?

#209 7 years ago

Played ST pro yesterday and wasn't wowed by it. I don't care about how many colors the LEDs can do or how fast they can flash the lights. Strait ball gameplay was not really different than any other stern. Yes it was fast and flowed nice but I have fast flowing games.
If you don't own a SM then I guess you would like this. I would just prefer something a little different of a layout and an actual toy that interacts with the ball.

#210 7 years ago

You guys lemme know when I can pick up a spiderman for 4800 and I'll be there. :p

#211 7 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

You guys lemme know when I can pick up a spiderman for 4800 and I'll be there. :p

You might be able to come down and pick mine up at some point! Every time I jump back on it after a hiatus its hard not to love it though.....

#212 7 years ago

I enjoy the pro and cant wait to see the LE.

The pro stands on its own in my opinion.

#213 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Uhhh....how about you listing it for us? It's so clear its a waste of time.........
The "facts" speak for themselves......you aren't seriously comparing the "toy" (singular) and interaction therewith to SM?
Doesn't "interaction" require some code?

Wow. Talk about a dodge!!

#214 7 years ago

I have to miss Expo, unfortunately, so I am extremely eager to hear the reports from people there about the LE. (Are you going, Rob?) I am still on the fence and hope for news that will encourage me to go through with the order. Also, I hope there will be some new threads in a few days so those reviews don't get lost amidst these older posts.

Fingers crossed that Stern will show something that makes buying the LE seem worthwhile...

#215 7 years ago
Quoted from Craig:

I have to miss Expo, unfortunately, so I am extremely eager to hear the reports from people there about the LE. (Are you going, Rob?) I am still on the fence and hope for news that will encourage me to go through with the order. Also, I hope there will be some new threads in a few days so those reviews don't get lost amidst these older posts.
Fingers crossed that Stern will show something that makes buying the LE seem worthwhile...

+1

#216 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Wow. Talk about a dodge!!

My pinball Chi is in a positive state right now!

#217 7 years ago

Here's how I see it (so it is subjective).

SM advantages over ST Pro: Doc Ock magnet and VUK, moving Doc Ock.

ST Pro advantages over SM: looping upper flipper shot, saucer shot on lower left, color-changing inserts.

I don't see how anyone could say "not even close". I like the single drop target over the motorized 3-bank, but it's about a wash for me.

It all comes down to CODE, gentlemen. So, it's too soon to tell which is the better game.

#218 7 years ago

Played a Star Trek Pro at two different locations last night that had a bunch of other pins. Based strictly on gameplay I liked Star Trek better than both the AC/DC and Metallica that I played. It was too loud at both locations to really hear any call outs or music.

#219 7 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

Here's how I see it (so it is subjective).
SM advantages over ST Pro: Doc Ock magnet and VUK, moving Doc Ock.
ST Pro advantages over SM: looping upper flipper shot, saucer shot on lower left, color-changing inserts.
I don't see how anyone could say "not even close". I like the single drop target over the motorized 3-bank, but it's about a wash for me.
It all comes down to CODE, gentlemen. So, it's too soon to tell which is the better game.

Nothing like Doc Ock. I agree with what u just said Swamp. Lighting will blow SM away. And throw in the the motorized bank with Sandman. Venom non active toy is very cool. Plus Matt's subway and building mod is great.

My opinion is that the toys and interaction is much better. "Not even close" depending on how u want to define that. I love the color changers on Ac. Whole lotta Rosie my favorite. So I'm sure that light show will be great. So they have a familiar layout with more lights and less interactive toys

#220 7 years ago

Too early to even consider mods in the equation lol...

I want to know what happens if you stick a LED OCD on this thing, or if it's even possible. All the LEDs are still 'blinky' so it looks to me like Stern isnt' even trying to make their LEDs have proper fading effects even though the whole game is now LED...depressing.

#221 7 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

There's no issue with "flow" on STTNG because of the fact that it's a widebody. Close to zero. Ritchie even went out of his way to have all the poppers preloaded to make the game as fast as humanly possible under most circumstances. The cannons slow things down far more than anything else on that game. If it's playing slow, it's because it ain't set up right, or the player isn't making the shots.
Both games play surprisingly differently from what I can tell after only 2 games on Star Trek (NTNG)

Widebody inherently slows a Pin down. That's OK, because speed doesn't mean better to everyone. But to say a widebody has no effect on speed or flow is incorrect.

#222 7 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

Here's how I see it (so it is subjective).
SM advantages over ST Pro: Doc Ock magnet and VUK, moving Doc Ock.
ST Pro advantages over SM: looping upper flipper shot, saucer shot on lower left, color-changing inserts.
I don't see how anyone could say "not even close". I like the single drop target over the motorized 3-bank, but it's about a wash for me.
It all comes down to CODE, gentlemen. So, it's too soon to tell which is the better game.

Yes.... 1 is coded by a legend in the pinball world & the other is ..........

#223 7 years ago

What are you basing that on? The possibility that the difference in nearby mass might be slowing the ball down more due to the added pull of gravity in the vicinty of the ball, or the fact that MOST widebody games have a lot more side to side action, even though STTNG is probably the least offensive widebody game ever made in that regard? Last I checked a ball rolls down a widebody playfield at the same speed as a standard. It's not the fact it's a widebody, it's DESIGN ISSUES 100%.

I said it had no effect on FLOW. There is a difference between FLOW and SPEED, yeah? I just can't do anything but shake my head if you don't think that STTNG doesn't have good flow...if the software had a combo system that was more than "millions ramps", that required a combo shot like Lightcycle Multiball, nobody would ever bitch about it.

#224 7 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

Too early to even consider mods in the equation lol...
I want to know what happens if you stick a LED OCD on this thing, or if it's even possible. All the LEDs are still 'blinky' so it looks to me like Stern isnt' even trying to make their LEDs have proper fading effects even though the whole game is now LED...depressing.

They did a nice job eliminating ghosting on regular LEDs. Fading just wasn't a design goal of this game.

#225 7 years ago
Quoted from Craig:

I have to miss Expo, unfortunately, so I am extremely eager to hear the reports from people there about the LE. (Are you going, Rob?) I am still on the fence and hope for news that will encourage me to go through with the order. Also, I hope there will be some new threads in a few days so those reviews don't get lost amidst these older posts.
Fingers crossed that Stern will show something that makes buying the LE seem worthwhile...

I'll be there Wednesday though Sunday and was planning on starting an observations thread. I have an LE on order, so I'm especially interested in any Star Trek news.

#226 7 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

I'll be there Wednesday though Sunday and was planning on starting an observations thread. I have an LE on order, so I'm especially interested in any Star Trek news.

Thanks. I have an order in, but I can still cancel, so I am waiting for some firm information. I hope to read lots of firsthand impressions during and after the weekend.

#227 7 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

What are you basing that on? The possibility that the difference in nearby mass might be slowing the ball down more due to the added pull of gravity in the vicinty of the ball, or the fact that MOST widebody games have a lot more side to side action, even though STTNG is probably the least offensive widebody game ever made in that regard? Last I checked a ball rolls down a widebody playfield at the same speed as a standard. It's not the fact it's a widebody, it's DESIGN ISSUES 100%.
I said it had no effect on FLOW. There is a difference between FLOW and SPEED, yeah? I just can't do anything but shake my head if you don't think that STTNG doesn't have good flow...if the software had a combo system that was more than "millions ramps", that required a combo shot like Lightcycle Multiball, nobody would ever bitch about it.

You've already been dismissed. Move along.

#228 7 years ago

So in other words you have no appropriate response, just your ridiculous claim. Gotcha.

#229 7 years ago
Quoted from Part_3:

You've already been dismissed. Move along.

Im in agreement with Frax on this one. Sttng has great flow and as long as you are making shots is as good as any Steve Ritchie game ever made. The combo system to get to warp 9 is fantastic. Demolition man is another. I just don't think being wide body causes the game to be any slower or have less flow.

#230 7 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Im in agreement with Frax on this one. Sttng has great flow and as long as you are making shots is as good as any Steve Ritchie game ever made. The combo system to get to warp 9 is fantastic. Demolition Man is another. I just don't think being wide body causes the game to be any slower or have less flow.

Yes,you have to make your shots and not hit the posts all the time like me.

#231 7 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Im in agreement with Frax on this one. Sttng has great flow and as long as you are making shots is as good as any Steve Ritchie game ever made. The combo system to get to warp 9 is fantastic. Demolition Man is another. I just don't think being wide body causes the game to be any slower or have less flow.

And it would be faster in a normal sized coffin.....

#232 7 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

I just don't think being wide body causes the game to be any slower or have less flow.

Widebody pins can have great flow, and DM is a great example. But they do not play as fast as standard size play fields. That includes DM.

#233 7 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Uhhh....how about you listing it for us? It's so clear its a waste of time.........
The "facts" speak for themselves......you aren't seriously comparing the "toy" (singular) and interaction therewith to SM?
Doesn't "interaction" require some code?

Lets see.....

SM has the following:

Doc Ock Magnet and VUK
Sandman 3 rising 3bank and rising sandman & VUK
1 Spinner & thats pretty much it unless you count the green goblin shaking from a single coil.

Star Trek (pro) has the following:

Vengence with a controled drop, Magnet & Yagov kicker
Spinner
Game controlled Color changing LEDs

Not sure what will be added on the LE/Premium but we know it will have a kick back and more Vengence action,

Thats where I was saying that the 2 pins have very similar toy interaction. Both are great shooters & hopefully ST will get as good as SM with future code updates.

#234 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Widebody pins can have great flow, and DM is a great example. But they do not play as fast as standard size play fields. That includes DM.

I agree, DM and JD are fast great flowing pins so it is possible to have good flow and speed. That said, traveling from side to side the ball has more ground to cover in a wide body may not have the same quick change of ball direction that a standard has. It is not all about just the pitch the side to side shots are generally longer and thus the game seems to be a little slower than it would be on a standard. Not trying to advocate for one of the other just trying to explain why I think no matter how fast a wide body plays there are standards that play much faster. The same or close to the same flow can be achieved in widebodies but how fast it plays cannot match a standard IMO.

#235 7 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

I'll be there Wednesday though Sunday and was planning on starting an observations thread. I have an LE on order, so I'm especially interested in any Star Trek news.

Wow. I got a thumbs down for this post?

Either someone doesn't like Expo, Star Trek, or that someone would comment on either subject ...

#236 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Widebody pins can have great flow, and DM is a great example. But they do not play as fast as standard size play fields. That includes DM.

Why wouldn't they play as fast? There's only about a 2" difference in width and no difference in length. The slingshots are often no further apart from each other and instead, larger or an added inlane is present or such. I can see the argument if the playfield is wide open but if the playfield is densely populated, just been a wide body doesn't necessarily slow things down. I consider demo man, sttng, and guns and roses faster than lots of other non wide body games. What other 1993 games are faster than sttng?
http://ipdb.org/search.pl?yr=1993
My sttng plays as fast as my white water with clear coated playfield. Getaway may be faster when properly waxed and all the mechs are rebuilt but that's about it on that list.

#237 7 years ago

You can't compare SM with ST Pro, it should be SM vs ST Premium.

#238 7 years ago

All I can say is that if you think STTNG plays slow, perhaps you should attend TPF next year and play mine. And try not to kill my cliffy sleeves with all your borked shots, please.

#239 7 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

You can't compare SM with ST Pro, it should be SM vs ST Premium.

The Premium adds the laser lighting.......I would stipulate to the fact that the light show is going to be great on ST premium/LE...

The game interaction with Doc Ock is the best part of SM in my opinion, and then Sandman, followed by Venom and lastly the shaking Green Goblin that SR wanted to do more with but couldn't do to "budget"......

All of those modes, variance and interaction is a significant difference versus ST, I think I get what Smassa is saying, ST looks to be another SM type great shooter that will get the necessary code eventually, and what does interact, interacts in a similar way....

With ST, where are the characters and villains integrated into the game like SM to tell the story? There is a crashing Vengeance ship, great shooter and light show, ok that can be a lot of fun too but certain aspects don't compare with SM imho........

The story could have been so much better imo, or maybe the material just isn't nearly as good with that movie, if so, use a little creativity with the characters and villains.....

#240 7 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Why wouldn't they play as fast?

I'm not going to get into some type of geometry or physics argument. I will simply state that based on my experience with the widebody pins that I've owned, none of them play as fast as most standard sized pins. And it's usually not even close.

#241 7 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

Wow. I got a thumbs down for this post?
Either someone doesn't like Expo, Star Trek, or that someone would comment on either subject ...

I gave you a thumbs down for worrying about (and posting on) getting a thumbs down.

#242 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I'm not going to get into some type of geometry or physics argument. I will simply state that based on my experience with the widebody pins that I've owned, none of them play as fast as most standard sized pins. And it's usually not even close.

Doesn't it just come down to the time in between shots? More space on a wide body for the ball to travel before it gets to the flippers means "more time" between shots. This observation is supported via space/time theory. Therefore, one may hypothesize that the reality of extended time in between shots leads to a perception that the game is "slower" than a game where the ball travels just as fast (or even a little slower) but returns to the flippers quicker due to less real estate to cover.

Pinheads claiming wide bodies are slower seem to think that speed is relative to space. But it's really TIME that is relative to space. Speed is speed. Flow is flow. But Slow isn't necessarily slow...ya know?

#243 7 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Doesn't it just come down to the time in between shots? More space on a wide body for the ball to travel before it gets to the flippers means "more time" between shots. This observation is supported via space/time theory. Therefore, one may hypothesize that the reality of extended time in between shots leads to a perception that the game is "slower" than a game where the ball travels just as fast (or even a little slower) but returns to the flippers quicker due to less real estate to cover.

Pinheads claiming wide bodies are slower seem to think that speed is relative to space. But it's really TIME that is relative to space. Speed is speed. Flow is flow. But Slow isn't necessarily slow...ya know?

Rocket Science?

#244 7 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

I gave you a thumbs down for worrying about (and posting on) getting a thumbs down.

LOL! I wasn't worried, just surprised ... I'm new here and still getting used to some of the pettiness and quirks and comments of those that clearly have an agenda for either Stern or JJP (or badhing the other) and can't grasp the idea that this hobby/industry is going to benefit by both of them being strong.

To make this post more relevant to the topic, a well maintained TNG can play very fast. A game doesn't have to be slower just because it's a wide body. TNG is slower than ST because of the game design itself, not the width of the PF. And I gave you thumbs up for an intelligent post.

#245 7 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

To make this post more relevant to the topic, a well maintained TNG can play very fast. A game doesn't have to be slower just because it's a wide body. TNG is slower than ST because of the game design itself, not the width of the PF. And I gave you thumbs up for an intelligent post.

The width of the PF is part of the design.

#246 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

The width of the PF is part of the design.

Divided by the circumference of the programming.

#247 7 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

The width of the PF is part of the design.

Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Divided by the circumference of the programming.

Congruent to the position of the machine to the equator.....

#248 7 years ago
Quoted from cal50:

Congruent to the position of the machine to the equator.....

My STTNG flows backwards. Because I am under the equator.

rd.

#249 7 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Pinheads claiming wide bodies are slower seem to think that speed is relative to space. But it's really TIME that is relative to space. Speed is speed. Flow is flow. But Slow isn't necessarily slow...ya know?

Thanks. That's bascially what I was saying, but I couldn't come up with a way to do it without getting banned.

#250 7 years ago
Quoted from jfh:

LOL! I wasn't worried, just surprised ... I'm new here and still getting used to some of the pettiness and quirks and comments of those that clearly have an agenda for either Stern or JJP (or badhing the other) and can't grasp the idea that this hobby/industry is going to benefit by both of them being strong.
To make this post more relevant to the topic, a well maintained TNG can play very fast. A game doesn't have to be slower just because it's a wide body. TNG is slower than ST because of the game design itself, not the width of the PF. And I gave you thumbs up for an intelligent post.

I agree!

I also would guess that the thumbs down you got was an accident on an iPhone. Happens sometimes.

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