(Topic ID: 265297)

Square Head Gottlieb 1963 Score Motor Runs

By hjh632

1 year ago


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  • 26 posts
  • 2 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by hjh632
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Gottlieb Wire Colors (resized).jpg
1ASwitchWires (resized).JPG
1ANotWorking (resized).JPG
1AFromAbove (resized).JPG
1AWorkingGame (resized).JPG
SRelay:Reels (resized).JPG
ZeroSwitch BallCount (resized).JPG
RedWhite at Fuse (resized).JPG
Square Head Reset relay (resized).jpg
TiltSwitch (resized).JPG
StartUpSchematics (resized).JPG
ScoreMotor (resized).JPG

#1 1 year ago

I have two Square Head machines; one working, one won't start. I figured I could use the working one for comparison of switch positions, but that hasn't worked for me. Score motor and relay switch positions appear identical between machines, but apparently they are not. Also some are buried and hard to see so I'm not sure if they are the same.

The score motor runs nonstop when I push the added-on door switch button. The S relay kicks on and the R (hold) relay locks on. That's it. The score reels and ball count unit don't try to reset. T and D (tilt and reset) units don't activate. The 20 bank relay unit does not try to reset.

IF i manually move the ball count unit to 5 balls the score motor stops running and the game plays - flippers, bumpers, all scoring/score reels works properly. But if a free ball should be earned by 1,000 points or going down a lit side alley or gobble hole, the ball count unit does not add a ball. When the ball drains a ball is not subtracted.

The 9th position and 0 switches open and close properly in the score reels. Setting the ball count unit to 0 balls opens its zero switch.

The tilt switch under the playfield had been rigged always open by a previous owner. I don't think that's a problem since it's locked open and should be open anyway. I'll put that back to original later.

I've checked the white-blue-red wire from motor switch 2C to the D relay and B relay and the solder connections are solid.

I have a very limited ability to read schematics and am a bit hazy on how to jumper connections, so please keep that in mind if you have suggestions. I'll include the bottom part of the schematics. I've looked in all forum posts for all 1963 Gottlieb games and couldn't find a post addressing the problem. Let me know what other information or pictures are needed - I'm stuck home now like everybody else an have lots of lots of free time!

ScoreMotor (resized).JPGStartUpSchematics (resized).JPGTiltSwitch (resized).JPG
#2 1 year ago

Fuses are good, all Jones plugs cleaned twice.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from hjh632:

T and D (tilt and reset) units don't activate.

I'd start by sorting out why the D/Reset relay doesn't fire.
Square Head Reset relay (resized).jpg
To do that I'd unplug the game and break out your meter. Set the meter to the lowest resistance setting, clip one probe to the red-white wire on the right side and leave it there. Then work your way through the circuit to determine why current doesn't flow through the D/Reset relay coil. Start by clipping the 2nd probe to the red-yellow wire on the other side of the Zero Balls To Play switch which is probably mounted on the Ball Count unit. Find the position of the Ball Count unit that closes the switch and see if the resistance across the switch drops to an ohm or less. If the switch closes but the resistance doesn't drop the switch may need to be cleaned.

Once you get the resistance to drop to less than an ohm, leave the Ball Count Unit where it is and move the 2nd probe to the left, to the orange-white-red wire between the 1000s and 100s Score Reel Runoff switches. Now you're checking the circuit through two switches. Rotate the 1000s Score Reel so it shows something other than zero. The resistance should again drop to less than an ohm. If not, check that the 1000s Score Reel Runoff switch is clean and working properly.

Once you've verified that a portion of the circuit is good, move the 2nd probe further to the left to include another switch and repeat the process. Eventually you should get to the D/Reset relay solder lug with all the switches cleaned and working and the resistance should still be less than an ohm. At that point the relay should fire properly.

/Mark

#4 1 year ago

Hmmm. I may be in over my pretty much rookie head! Let me look around for a while and think, then get back. First thing is to download the instruction manual for my multimeter. I do have a red white wire located at the 10 amp fuse picture 1. I see it again at the ball count unit zero switch with the yellow red, at least I think so, picture 2. So I should basically see if there is continuity across the switch red/white to red/yellow blade at the ball count unit when closed at zero balls to play? Excuse me for being so painfully slow on this. Henry

#5 1 year ago
RedWhite at Fuse (resized).JPG
#6 1 year ago
ZeroSwitch BallCount (resized).JPG
#7 1 year ago

But I note that the ball count unit does not activate and count down to close the zero switch. Yikes!

#8 1 year ago

I have to do that manually

#9 1 year ago

Okay, starting to make more sense. Have to work on it today and tomorrow. Seem to lose continuity when I make the 1000s reel read other than the number zero.

#10 1 year ago

Don't rely just on your meter's continuity test. Read the resistance value. If you measure a path with 20 ohms of resistance (through a coil or transformer for example) your meter will say there's continuity even though there's no path through the switch which should measure less than an ohm.

Another way to check the switches is to jumper around one or more switches with an alligator clip test lead which bypasses the circuit around them and and effectively removes them from the circuit. If the D/Reset relay fires with one or more switches bypassed you know that the path is being blocked by whatever you bypassed. This requires working with the game powered on though which not everyone is comfortable with.

#11 1 year ago

I'm a bit lost:If I connect from the red-white wire at the ball count unit (in the zero position) to the red-yellow at the 1000s reel the meter reads under 1.
With the score reel at number zero, move probe to the orange-white-red on the 1000s reel and the meter reads under 1. Good so far. But when I change the reel off of zero (To number 1, 2, etc) and put the probe on the orange-white-red the meter reads 0.L which to me means no continuity, open line.

With all score reels at the zero position if I connect the red-white at the ball count unit at the zero position to motor 2B brown-white-red, the meter reads less than 1. So it seems it's continuous from the ball count unit zero switch all the way to the score motor ONLY if all score reels are at zero. I'm stuck

#12 1 year ago

I can't say without the schematic but what I think should happen is that the S/Start relay should start the Score Motor running. Once the motor is running some other part of the circuit should reset the Score Reels and Ball Count unit. Once those all reach zero, the D/Reset relay trips (it's a trip relay not a standard relay) which causes the trip relay bank to reset.

Maybe you could verify that by watching your working game reset.

For the moment just figure out if the D/Reset relay will trip once everything is at zero. If it doesn't check the Motor 2B switch right after the Score Reel switches in the schematic snippet I posted.

#13 1 year ago

Hi Mark,
When I manually reset all score reels to zero and the ball count unit to zero (engage zero switch) the S and R (hold relay) engage as before AND the D (reset) relay now kicks on. At that point the 20 bank reset coils slams on and off non stop. BUT still, the score reels and ball count don't reset by themselves.

"Once the motor is running some other part of the circuit should reset the Score Reels and Ball Count unit. " I quote you

On the schematic portion I'm including, I see where the open S switches leads to the units, tens, hundreds, and thousands unit run outs. Is that the 'other part of the circuit' resetting the score reels? I did connect the S relay switch attached to the yel-red wire at the S relay to the yel-red on the 1000s reel and the reading was less than one. Have not tried the units, 10s 100s yet. It seems like those are the paths to reset the reels, yet they don't. Am I on the right track or is it time to call in the real $repairman? Been fun so far!

SRelay:Reels (resized).JPG
#14 1 year ago
Quoted from hjh632:

When I manually reset all score reels to zero and the ball count unit to zero (engage zero switch) ... the D (reset) relay now kicks on.

Good. Now we know that that circuit works and is not your problem.

Quoted from hjh632:

It seems like those are the paths to reset the reels, yet they don't.

Have a good look at your schematic. You say that none of the Score Reels reset. Each Score Reel has its own Runout switch and its own switch on the S/Start relay. But they all share a common switch on the Score Motor (1A). So if none of the Score Reels reset, is it more likely that a switch in each of the four Score Reel paths is bad, or that the single shared Score Motor switch is bad?

Quoted from hjh632:

Am I on the right track or is it time to call in the real $repairman? Been fun so far!

Who's the real repairman? If you're having fun stick with it.

#15 1 year ago

Score motor switch 1A looks odd and lots of discolored debris under it. Almost looks like someone put a blob of solder where the contact bump should be. Metal looks discolored/scorched. The hard white plastic spacer may be partially melted, very hard for me to see in there.

Is there an easy release mechanism so I can tilt up the score motor and look from underneath? Otherwise taking out the bottom board and unscrewing the motor from below is a bit (a lot) daunting for me.

I'll include a picture of 1A from my working machine and two from the non-working.

#16 1 year ago

1A from the working game

1AWorkingGame (resized).JPG
#17 1 year ago

1A from the nonworking game, from above, and from the side like the working game picture.

1AFromAbove (resized).JPG1ANotWorking (resized).JPG
#18 1 year ago
Quoted from hjh632:

Is there an easy release mechanism so I can tilt up the score motor and look from underneath?

Some Gottlieb score motors have a hair pin clip that when removed allows them to be pivoted up for better access. You can barely make it out in the first photo at:
https://www.funwithpinball.com/exhibits/small-boards-page-2#ScoreMotor

What does your meter tell you about your mangled 1A switch as you slowly turn the score motor by hand?

#19 1 year ago

Thanks, looked and no pin for the score motor. But switch 1A is more accessible than I thought. Wire color is confusing me. Of the three wires going into switch 1A I see a top one that is mostly red with patches of white, in the middle is equal candy cane red and white. Are both of them red-white? I'm thinking I should connect my meter one probe to the candy cane lug, one to the mostly red/white patches lug and see if the reading drops below 1 as I rotate the score motor. Maybe hoping that it doesn't, then I can adjust the switch until they do, and we maybe live happily ever after. My take is that the two red-white wires should get connected by switch 1A, one of them transfers current to the S relay and trips it, then activating the four S switches that lead to the four score reel runout switches. Sound right? (The bottom wire is the slate to the 50 point relay and doesn't matter for now.)

1ASwitchWires (resized).JPG
#20 1 year ago

Correction in my thinking: S relay should be already tripped, so current flows to the four S switches (already closed) leading to the score reel runout switches.

#21 1 year ago

Can't get a reading below 1 (it's 20+) between the two red-white wire lugs when I turn the score motor slowly. Will have to reassess after a morning walk.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from hjh632:

Wire color is confusing me. Of the three wires going into switch 1A I see a top one that is mostly red with patches of white, in the middle is equal candy cane red and white. Are both of them red-white?

Gottlieb used two types of two color wire. If you study your schematic you might find the decoder ring:
Gottlieb Wire Colors (resized).jpg
Red-Wh is a wire with a dominant red background and a thin white tracer.
Red&Wh is a wire with red and white in roughly equal proportions.

From your picture it looks like the outside switch in the 1A switch stack connects red&white to slate. Then the next switch in connects red-white to a jumper up to 1E(?). If that's the case that's the switch you want. The schematic shows that the 1A switch you're after connects to a 1E switch among other things. It's also unusual in that at least one of the wires on the 1A switch has no wire color indicated.

#23 1 year ago

You are a GENIUS!!!

During my six mile walk I did figure out the red/white to slate switch didn't matter for this issue. Had to be the other one, jumpered it together and got some score reel/ball count unit action. Finally got that mangled red-white to other color switch to work after quite some time. So, YAY! Almost there. Ball count unit counts down to the zero switch, three score reels reset (!), but not the unit's reel. When I manually set the unit reel to zero the game finishes the start up, adds 5 balls to play, and releases the ball. Then it plays properly, even subtracted drained balls one at a time right down to game over.

I'm puzzled by the unit reel. It scores one point at a time properly during game play but does not reset when I push the start button. I traced the wire from the S relay to the jones plug and the reading was under zero on my meter. Same from the jones plug to score reel board where all the wires come in, and from the board to the solenoid. Must be missing something. Ideas?

Thank you so much for all the help. I've learned a huge amount from our conversations. Henry

#24 1 year ago

Hmm...Reading below one on my meter from BL & RED wire at the Add Units Unit score reel solenoid to the BR-Red wire lug at the top of the S relay.

Opened up the T-D-S bank and cleaned/gapped the switch blades for the BR-RED wire. Unit's score reel still does not reset.

#25 1 year ago

The score reels have two completely separate paths into them. The upper path on the schematic is used during game play and the lower path is used during reset. There are two switches in the reset path (Runout and S relay) in addition to the Motor 1A switch that need to close for the score reel to reset. What's the resistance through those two?

#26 1 year ago

Thanks for the info on two separate paths...had hazily wondered about that, why it would score but not reset. Good info for my mental toolkit.

Good news is, recleaned and regapped the unit's S switch and all reels reset, the game starts and runs properly, and this has been a great experience. Glad you took an interest and helped me along. You are a great teacher. I'll mark as solved. May get back to you on why the other Square Head scores a phantom 100 points once in a while at drain. I'll think about it a while and see if my new confidence and fledgling schematic reading ability gets me anywhere. Probably should be a new topic unless you have a quick idea. Henry

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