Total Nuclear Annihilation
Spooky Pinball, 2017
Total Nuclear Annihilation (CE)
Spooky Pinball, 2022Quoted from snyper2099:This makes about as much sense as paying 9K for a Ghostbusters Pro but hey, that's apparently a thing now so... who the F cares how people spend their money? Who the hell cares if you are getting one or not? Preorder models sucks. I will never preorder anything. Not a video game, not an auto, and certainly not a 9K adult toy.
Well it's kinda what we do. If we don't discuss it and complain what would we do with out time when we should be working and such?
Quoted from pinmister:I think Scott is going to do well with this run. If I had to guess I would say thousands per game. I would guess $2000-$2500 per game made. I would guestimate the BOM to be around $2500-$3000 per game. So about $3500-$4000 profit per machine selling for 9k without having to discount for distribution(not too shabby). Hoping Spooky can keep finding home brew designers for making great tables that they can capitalize on and stay in business for many years to come.
A couple of things I would be concerned about if I bought one is #starpost. I know they probably learned a lesson from the last run but hoping they fix playfield issues up front.
Second thing I noticed is they are reusing gold vein powder for TNA? This makes no sense to me and honestly I think it would be fugly(glad I have stainless). Reminds me of Stern and JJP being cheap and trying to reuse old inventory stock. They are going to use the same powder that rubs off with just touching it-I figured they would have learned a lesson from Halloween and Ultra? Seriously scratching my head why they would do the gold vein for powder.
Are you insane?? This is bad math from start to finish.
Quoted from manadams:Your seriously trying to defend calling every add on $5 in cost? Even if they were only that much there's labor involved installing them on the game. What other business or pinball manufacturer is giving you anything at cost to begin with? Glad you explained it, so clear now.
Come on, their isn't $10k worth of parts and labor here.. The sad part is, the 2000 plus people that would have bought this game at a decent price means 2000 plus games won't be out there to enjoy and pass down to the next generations. That's the saddest part. And yes, they would have kept making this game if it kept selling out. It's a shame, cool game.
Quoted from Lamberger:Come on, their isn't $10k worth of parts and labor here.. The sad part is, the 2000 plus people that would have bought this game at a decent price means 2000 plus games won't be out there to enjoy and pass down to the next generations. That's the saddest part. And yes, they would have kept making this game if it kept selling out.
And it's not priced at 10k either?
It's a business to make money, as much as folks want to feel entitled to getting everything cheap and what they want, the price is set by the company and is what they want.
Typical business math is whatever the cost is, it exponentially increases the price you will sell something for. More labor involved to install, the extra costs, this all has to be covered and at a set percentage typically. As a business owner you don't go "oh it's just another $20 in parts." Depending on your labor costs and your profit target to make the entire run possible, that extra bit of add ons just is gonna have to be sold to consumers for 4-5 times it's cost to make it even worth it.
Folks also forget that businesses don't operate in a bubble of what the item costs in parts. Besides labor being a big factor, we got rent to pay. Insurance to pay. Taxes including employer tax portion for each employee. Utility costs, benefits offerings, and the many many other expenses that are required to operate a business. And on top of that, you will need to make a profit.
It doesn't matter what magical math folks use to justify a cost of an item based on it's components, it always is ignoring the other half of the cost equation business owners deal with.
Quoted from pinmister:I think Scott is going to do well with this run... ...$2000-$2500 per game made. I would guestimate the BOM to be around $2500-$3000 per game. So about $3500-$4000 profit per machine...
This is way off. I've been in manufacturing for over 20 years. I don't know everything and I'm not a Spooky insider, but I am pretty knowledgeable about the cost and scale of manufacturing.
Scott made up to 1.4 MILLION dollars on the first run of 550 TNA's and stands to make up to $625,000 on this run of 250? No company has ever paid a designer anywhere near 2 million dollars for 800 machines. Why in the hell does Scott still have a full time job at PBL if he has made 2 million dollars on TNA alone over the past 4 years? Then there's the Rick & Morty windfall money as well. Spooky made 750 of those. I hope Scott is doing just fine when it comes to be compensated for his pinball designs, sound, music & rule sets, but the numbers above are simply not sustainable for any pinball manufacturing company.
The BOM on this machine is closer to $5000, and further, the BOM is not the total cost of manufacturing a machine. Add labor at another $1000 per machine (50 man hours x $20). Operating costs beyond payroll are another 10-20 percent (new equipment, insurance, heating, electric, sewer, office supplies, toilet paper, snow removal, state tax, building maintenance, etc., this list can be endless and it slowly but surely adds up).
Coil count is a very general, but still somewhat valid way to compare the BOM of pinball machines since every coil is part of a more expensive mechanism. TNA coil count - 19. Godzilla Pro coil count - 9. Godzilla Premium coil count - 11, plus 2 motors (this is from memory, so this may not be exactly correct, but very close). Both TNA & Godzilla are great games, but mechanically speaking, TNA is a much more expensive build than Godzilla Pro and probably around the same as Stern's cost on Godzilla Premium, especially when you look at the difference in production scale. Spooky has done one run of 550 TNAs, and is now planning an even smaller run of 250. No one except a privileged few are privy to Stern's production numbers, but a guess of 4000 Pro's, 5000 Premiums & 500 LEs (or more? Can't remember) has to be conservative. There is real power in those numbers compared to Spooky. Spooky is not Stern (~20,000 units projected for the year). They do not have the buying power or cash flow that Stern does. Stern can make machines cheaper; a lot cheaper. Smaller boutique companies provide an alternative to mainstream superhero themes and the like, but will never be cost competitive. Stern would never make Rob Zombie, AMH, TNA, Ultraman, etc., and they shouldn't. The numbers just aren't there for a company their size. Boutique companies are able to provide titles such as this, and that makes for a much wider spectrum of games available.
I would humbly estimate that the out-the-door cost for TNA is closer to $7500. At a retail price of $9000, that is a very reasonable 20% mark up (16.67% margin).
Quoted from shakethatmachine:This is way off. I've been in manufacturing for over 20 years. I don't everything and I'm not a Spooky insider, but I am pretty knowledgeable about the cost and scale of manufacturing.
Scott made up to 1.4 MILLION dollars on the first run of 550 TNA's and stands to make up to $625,000 on this run of 250? No company has ever paid a designer anywhere near 2 million dollars for 800 machines. Why in the hell does Scott still have a full time job at PBL if he has made 2 million dollars on TNA alone over the past 4 years? Then there's the Rick & Morty windfall money as well. Spooky made 750 of those. I hope Scott is doing just fine when it comes to be compensated for his pinball designs, sound, music & rule sets, but the numbers above are simply not sustainable for any pinball manufacturing company.
The BOM on this machine is closer to $5000, and further, the BOM is not the total cost of manufacturing a machine. Add labor at another $1000 per machine (50 man hours x $20). Operating costs beyond payroll are another 10-20 percent (new equipment, insurance, heating, electric, sewer, office supplies, toilet paper, snow removal, state tax, building maintenance, etc., this list can be endless and it slowly but surely adds up).
Coil count is a very general, but still somewhat valid way to compare the BOM of pinball machines since every coil is part of a more expensive mechanism. TNA coil count - 19. Godzilla Pro coil count - 9. Godzilla Premium coil count - 11, plus 2 motors (this is from memory, so this may not be exactly correct, but very close). Both TNA & Godzilla are great games, but mechanically speaking, TNA is a much more expensive build than Godzilla Pro and probably around the same as Stern's cost on Godzilla Premium, especially when you look at the difference in production scale. Spooky has done one run of 550 TNAs, and is now planning an even smaller run of 250. No one except a privileged few are privy to Stern's production numbers, but a guess of 4000 Pro's, 5000 Premiums & 500 LEs (or more? Can't remember) has to be conservative. There is real power in those numbers compared to Spooky. Spooky is not Stern (~20,000 units projected for the year). They do not have the buying power or cash flow that Stern does. Stern can make machines cheaper; a lot cheaper. Smaller boutique companies provide an alternative to mainstream superhero themes and the like, but will never be cost competitive. Stern would never make Rob Zombie, AMH, TNA, Ultraman, etc., and they shouldn't. The numbers just aren't there for a company their size. Boutique companies are able to provide titles such as this, and that makes for a much wider spectrum of games available.
I would humbly estimate that the out-the-door cost for TNA is closer to $7500. At a retail price of $9000, that is a very reasonable 20% mark up (16.67% margin).
Dude. Stop bringing facts and being sensible. You are gonna kill our reputation over here with this shit.
Quoted from shakethatmachine:This is way off. I've been in manufacturing for over 20 years. I don't know everything and I'm not a Spooky insider, but I am pretty knowledgeable about the cost and scale of manufacturing.
Scott made up to 1.4 MILLION dollars on the first run of 550 TNA's and stands to make up to $625,000 on this run of 250? No company has ever paid a designer anywhere near 2 million dollars for 800 machines. Why in the hell does Scott still have a full time job at PBL if he has made 2 million dollars on TNA alone over the past 4 years? Then there's the Rick & Morty windfall money as well. Spooky made 750 of those. I hope Scott is doing just fine when it comes to be compensated for his pinball designs, sound, music & rule sets, but the numbers above are simply not sustainable for any pinball manufacturing company.
The BOM on this machine is closer to $5000, and further, the BOM is not the total cost of manufacturing a machine. Add labor at another $1000 per machine (50 man hours x $20). Operating costs beyond payroll are another 10-20 percent (new equipment, insurance, heating, electric, sewer, office supplies, toilet paper, snow removal, state tax, building maintenance, etc., this list can be endless and it slowly but surely adds up).
Coil count is a very general, but still somewhat valid way to compare the BOM of pinball machines since every coil is part of a more expensive mechanism. TNA coil count - 19. Godzilla Pro coil count - 9. Godzilla Premium coil count - 11, plus 2 motors (this is from memory, so this may not be exactly correct, but very close). Both TNA & Godzilla are great games, but mechanically speaking, TNA is a much more expensive build than Godzilla Pro and probably around the same as Stern's cost on Godzilla Premium, especially when you look at the difference in production scale. Spooky has done one run of 550 TNAs, and is now planning an even smaller run of 250. No one except a privileged few are privy to Stern's production numbers, but a guess of 4000 Pro's, 5000 Premiums & 500 LEs (or more? Can't remember) has to be conservative. There is real power in those numbers compared to Spooky. Spooky is not Stern (~20,000 units projected for the year). They do not have the buying power or cash flow that Stern does. Stern can make machines cheaper; a lot cheaper. Smaller boutique companies provide an alternative to mainstream superhero themes and the like, but will never be cost competitive. Stern would never make Rob Zombie, AMH, TNA, Ultraman, etc., and they shouldn't. The numbers just aren't there for a company their size. Boutique companies are able to provide titles such as this, and that makes for a much wider spectrum of games available.
I would humbly estimate that the out-the-door cost for TNA is closer to $7500. At a retail price of $9000, that is a very reasonable 20% mark up (16.67% margin).
U should talk to the guys from PB, their numbers are a lot different then the above. Or maybe spooky should get some advice from them? Hope they do.. Would love to see more TNA's out there.
Quoted from shakethatmachine:This is way off. I've been in manufacturing for over 20 years. I don't know everything and I'm not a Spooky insider, but I am pretty knowledgeable about the cost and scale of manufacturing.
Scott made up to 1.4 MILLION dollars on the first run of 550 TNA's and stands to make up to $625,000 on this run of 250? No company has ever paid a designer anywhere near 2 million dollars for 800 machines. Why in the hell does Scott still have a full time job at PBL if he has made 2 million dollars on TNA alone over the past 4 years? Then there's the Rick & Morty windfall money as well. Spooky made 750 of those. I hope Scott is doing just fine when it comes to be compensated for his pinball designs, sound, music & rule sets, but the numbers above are simply not sustainable for any pinball manufacturing company.
The BOM on this machine is closer to $5000, and further, the BOM is not the total cost of manufacturing a machine. Add labor at another $1000 per machine (50 man hours x $20). Operating costs beyond payroll are another 10-20 percent (new equipment, insurance, heating, electric, sewer, office supplies, toilet paper, snow removal, state tax, building maintenance, etc., this list can be endless and it slowly but surely adds up).
Coil count is a very general, but still somewhat valid way to compare the BOM of pinball machines since every coil is part of a more expensive mechanism. TNA coil count - 19. Godzilla Pro coil count - 9. Godzilla Premium coil count - 11, plus 2 motors (this is from memory, so this may not be exactly correct, but very close). Both TNA & Godzilla are great games, but mechanically speaking, TNA is a much more expensive build than Godzilla Pro and probably around the same as Stern's cost on Godzilla Premium, especially when you look at the difference in production scale. Spooky has done one run of 550 TNAs, and is now planning an even smaller run of 250. No one except a privileged few are privy to Stern's production numbers, but a guess of 4000 Pro's, 5000 Premiums & 500 LEs (or more? Can't remember) has to be conservative. There is real power in those numbers compared to Spooky. Spooky is not Stern (~20,000 units projected for the year). They do not have the buying power or cash flow that Stern does. Stern can make machines cheaper; a lot cheaper. Smaller boutique companies provide an alternative to mainstream superhero themes and the like, but will never be cost competitive. Stern would never make Rob Zombie, AMH, TNA, Ultraman, etc., and they shouldn't. The numbers just aren't there for a company their size. Boutique companies are able to provide titles such as this, and that makes for a much wider spectrum of games available.
I would humbly estimate that the out-the-door cost for TNA is closer to $7500. At a retail price of $9000, that is a very reasonable 20% mark up (16.67% margin).
It is astounding that someone can make a claim as ridiculous as "Pinball designers get paid a $2500 royalty per game" and "the BOM of a pinball machine is $2500" in the same word salad and not be immediately hauled away by men in white coats.
The mental health system in our country is in dire straits! This guy should be on a watch list!
Quoted from pinmister:I think Scott is going to do well with this run. If I had to guess I would say thousands per game. I would guess $2000-$2500 per game made. I would guestimate the BOM to be around $2500-$3000 per game. So about $3500-$4000 profit per machine selling for 9k without having to discount for distribution(not too shabby). Hoping Spooky can keep finding home brew designers for making great tables that they can capitalize on and stay in business for many years to come.
A couple of things I would be concerned about if I bought one is #starpost. I know they probably learned a lesson from the last run but hoping they fix playfield issues up front.
Second thing I noticed is they are reusing gold vein powder for TNA? This makes no sense to me and honestly I think it would be fugly(glad I have stainless). Reminds me of Stern and JJP being cheap and trying to reuse old inventory stock. They are going to use the same powder that rubs off with just touching it-I figured they would have learned a lesson from Halloween and Ultra? Seriously scratching my head why they would do the gold vein for powder.
Look, I'm not trying to pick on you. You say stupid things all the time with zero bearing on reality in the actual pinball business and I let it pass. Routinely.
But this is an ALL-TIMER. This is hall of fame. All in one post! If there was a Golden Raspberry Awards for Pinside you would sweep all categories in 2022.
1. "I guestimate the BOM of a Spooky pinball machine to be $2500-$3000"
I guestimate you have zero understanding about anything having to do with building pinball machines.
2. "I guestimate Scott Danisi is getting a $2000-$2500 royalty per TNA Sold."
I guestimate this is one of the dumbest things I've ever read here. Have you ever MET a pinball designer? Trust me, most of them aren't millionaires, which is exactly what you just declared every working pinball designer today is.
3. "It sucks to see Spooky reusing leftover stock like JJP and Stern!"
It sucks to see this made up claim repeating endlessly as fact on Pinside by people who don't know anything. THAT'S NOT HOW PINBALL WORKS. They order the parts they need, and build pinball machines. The "leftover parts" idiocy makes zero sense and has no bearing in reality. They don't order parts for 600 games, and then build 300. WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT?
I'm just trying to help you out. You are straight up embarrassing yourself by typing this stuff up , and encouraging others who may somehow know even less than you (I mean..it's possible?) to do the same.
STOP IT! For the love of God!
Quoted from pinmister:I love trolling early on Fridays-keep on rolling and keep on trolling
I think it worked.
Quoted from Lamberger:Come on, their isn't $10k worth of parts and labor here..
You know the game is $9k so just stop. People really reaching in this thread with trying to stretch the truth and it's laughable.
strech (resized).jpgQuoted from manadams:You know the game is $9k so just stop. People really reaching in this thread with trying to stretch the truth and it's laughable.[quoted image]
U forgot the butter! ($1000) Wife says it to me all the time. Haha!
Quoted from Lamberger:U forgot the butter! Wife says it to me all the time. Haha!
Well yes if you add butter it's $10k. That's definitely something you can pass on to save money, never was important to me on my games.
Quoted from manadams:Well yes if you add butter it's $10k. That's definitely something you can pass on to save money, never was important to me on my games.
Is it really worth $1000 tho? lol. all good, I set that one up... Didn't think u would be the one to bite tho. Haha!
If nothing else, I'd like to thank Spooky for not running away after the blowback. People get worked up and I'm sure you already knew the price was going to raise some eyebrows. I like having them here interacting, but I know it can be nerve wracking sometimes.
Didn't spend time reading the entire 16 pages. I think the one thing that people on both sides of the money argument have missed: Stern pricing has a middle-man (a distributor) that has to take a cut. Godzilla @ Pinball Dudes is 7,999. That means they are selling it to them probably 5-6k. If they are selling for 5k-6k, they are manufacturing it for 3k or less. So if you cut the middleman, the real cost of that game for Stern to make money is the 5K they sell it for.
At the volume Spooky runs, I'd bet they get identical volume pricing, so I don't think their parts cost more at this point. That game can't be that costly to make. What Spooky makes after taxes, paying any owners, etc, and deciding what they want to pocket per game is what they want. If you actually wanted a TNA AND you are mad at the price, then for sure I'd be mad. If you are just mad that a pinball game is expensive.... pinball has always been expensive and everyone seems to be paying a steep price to hit a steel ball.
Some people pay $100k for a painting that takes someone a month of labor and $10 in paint, so cost of goods sometimes has no play on the final value. What we really need is China to start making knock-off TNA games just like Rolex and everything else 
Quoted from Lamberger:Is it really worth $1000 tho? lol. all good, I set it up on purpose. Didn't think u would be the one to bite tho. Haha!
It is to some people, not for me though mainly because if you nick/scratch it then you're screwed. If I stared at the art on my games more than I played them then that would help justify it also.
Quoted from dpadam450:Didn't spend time reading the entire 16 pages. I think the one thing that people on both sides of the money argument have missed: Stern pricing has a middle-man (a distributor) that has to take a cut. Godzilla @ Pinball Dudes is 7,999. That means they are selling it to them probably 5-6k. If they are selling for 5k-6k, they are manufacturing it for 3k or less. So if you cut the middleman, the real cost of that game for Stern to make money is the 5K they sell it for.
At the volume Spooky runs, I'd bet they get identical volume pricing, so I don't think their parts cost more at this point. That game can't be that costly to make. What Spooky makes after taxes, paying any owners, etc, and deciding what they want to pocket per game is what they want. If you actually wanted a TNA AND you are mad at the price, then for sure I'd be mad. If you are just mad that a pinball game is expensive.... pinball has always been expensive and everyone seems to be paying a steep price to hit a steel ball.
Some people pay $100k for a painting that takes someone a month of labor and $10 in paint, so cost of goods sometimes has no play on the final value. What we really need is China to start making knock-off TNA games just like Rolex and everything else
We had a pinball made in China. It's called Thunderbirds. After seeing the product, and the MSRP based on the time next to what was made in U.S.A., I think I'm happy with U.S.A.
Stern distributors make very little margin. I'm not a distributor, but I have heard that it is very little.. much less than 1k.
IDK about the rest.. you are right.. Spooky set the price.. that's the price... Just sad since it is the first time I think there has been this level of debate over the value proposition (from spooky).. Or it seems so anyway.
Quoted from koji:We had a pinball made in China. It's called Thunderbirds. After seeing the product, and the MSRP based on the time next to what was made in U.S.A., I think I'm happy with U.S.A.
Stern distributors make very little margin. I'm not a distributor, but I have heard that it is very little.. much less than 1k.
IDK about the rest.. you are right.. Spooky set the price.. that's the price... Just sad since it is the first time I think there has been this level of debate over the value proposition from Spooky.. Or it seems so anyway.
Any serious analysis of cost needs to consider the fact that this is an unlicensed IP made as a home brew with rudimentary art that’s beeing re run. Also is made largely with stock parts. The R and D on this cannot be anywhere near the cost of a game like Godzilla.
Quoted from dpadam450:Didn't spend time reading the entire 16 pages. I think the one thing that people on both sides of the money argument have missed: Stern pricing has a middle-man (a distributor) that has to take a cut. Godzilla @ Pinball Dudes is 7,999. That means they are selling it to them probably 5-6k. If they are selling for 5k-6k, they are manufacturing it for 3k or less. So if you cut the middleman, the real cost of that game for Stern to make money is the 5K they sell it for.
At the volume Spooky runs, I'd bet they get identical volume pricing, so I don't think their parts cost more at this point. That game can't be that costly to make. What Spooky makes after taxes, paying any owners, etc, and deciding what they want to pocket per game is what they want. If you actually wanted a TNA AND you are mad at the price, then for sure I'd be mad. If you are just mad that a pinball game is expensive.... pinball has always been expensive and everyone seems to be paying a steep price to hit a steel ball.
Some people pay $100k for a painting that takes someone a month of labor and $10 in paint, so cost of goods sometimes has no play on the final value. What we really need is China to start making knock-off TNA games just like Rolex and everything else
Distributors buy pins for approx 15% less than they sell (or less than that!). You are way off bro.
So a game that has an MSRP of $7999 probably cost a Distributor around $6800 or more. NOT $5000.
Stern probably makes 15%-20% max on a game. So take that 6800 and subtract about 15% to see what it cost Stern to make it. Which would be around $5780. NOT $3000. You are mental
Quoted from JSC:Any serious analysis of cost needs to consider the fact that this is an unlicensed IP made as a home brew with rudimentary art that’s beeing re run. Also is made largely with stock parts. The R and D on this cannot be anywhere near the cost of a game like Godzilla.
It’s a game made by Scott. Spooky is paying him to make the game. The game is a licensed game.
Quoted from shakethatmachine:Coil count is a very general, but still somewhat valid way to compare the BOM of pinball machines since every coil is part of a more expensive mechanism. TNA coil count - 19. Godzilla Pro coil count - 9. Godzilla Premium coil count - 11, plus 2 motors (this is from memory, so this may not be exactly correct, but very close). Both TNA & Godzilla are great games, but mechanically speaking, TNA is a much more expensive build than Godzilla Pro and probably around the same as Stern's cost on Godzilla Premium, especially when you look at the difference in production scale.
Then I'm out on coil count. TNA is a cool location game, brutal and with that pumping soundtrack. But compared to Godzilla premium, the TNA playfield is barren.
Quoted from koji:Stern distributors make very little margin. I'm not a distributor, but I have heard that it is very little.. much less than 1k.
Seems low, but interesting info. Would really love to know the distributor cut. I follow Kiesel guitars and their owner says repeatedly he will never be in Guitar Center because it would raise the prices on his guitars from 3k to 5k.
Quoted from turbo2nr:Distributors buy pins for approx 15% less than they sell (or less than that!). You are way off bro.
So a game that has an MSRP of $7999 probably cost a Distributor around $6800 or more. NOT $5000.
Stern probably makes 15%-20% max on a game. So take that 6800 and subtract about 15% to see what it cost Stern to make it. Which would be around $5780. NOT $3000. You are mental
Ah ok, thats good to know. That doesn't necessarily make me mental that I thought distributors might make more money......
Quoted from m00nmuppet:Then I'm out on coil count. TNA is a cool location game, brutal and with that pumping soundtrack. But compared to Godzilla premium, the TNA playfield is barren.
Your not wrong. Godzilla has plenty to do, shots, etc… the gameplay was fun, but for me the theme sucks.
A B/W cheesy cut scenes of old school Japanese fighting style (like “modern” Power Rangers).
I could not handle that. Overall, TNA is enjoyable.. that is what we are in this hobby for, good entertainment.
It’s nice to have a pin that plays completely different then other pins.
Also, I’m not the best player.. TNA will keep me busy to destroy all 9 Reactors. Sure Godzilla is mode based deep code…. There are plenty of those around.
TNA simple game play stands alone.
Quoted from nogoodnames222:I'm curious, what would you sell your copy of TNA for?
It would be a hard sell as I am the guy that did not like the artwork on the cabinet and ported it over to a Stern cabinet with custom artwork. I traded a white water for it originally. At that time it was roughly 6k trade. I would not know what the originals would pull money wise?
D3F70844-1FA2-4F1D-BC61-F1F4FB242A23 (resized).jpegQuoted from jdoz2:It’s a game made by Scott. Spooky is paying him to make the game. The game is a licensed game.
This "unlicensed theme" misinformation has been corrected again and again in this thread, the Next Spooky Pin thread, and the TNA club thread. Ditto for TNA not being a low BOM game. At this point, these people are just refusing to absorb new information.
Quoted from JSC:Any serious analysis of cost needs to consider the fact that this is an unlicensed IP made as a home brew with rudimentary art that’s beeing re run. Also is made largely with stock parts. The R and D on this cannot be anywhere near the cost of a game like Godzilla.
I don't buy things based on serious analysis of cost.
This whole circular argument that drop targets cost $3 each (add up all the parts) and that's what a pin should cost, that doesn't make any sense.
Most people will be happy and happier with Godzilla, DP, JP and so on and so on. But that doesn't mean TNA has to cost less than DP or JP or Godzilla. Buy whatever you want. But don't need to bring out a slide rule and a scientific calculator to figure out what everything has to cost.
Bottom line, I know people are sad that this game costs so much, and maybe would have been in at $6K or $7K or $8K but they are out at $9K, I can see the frustration, but I wanted MM Royal and thought $10K was too much at the time. I didn't let it ruin my life, I just got other pins that I liked and didn't buy the MM Royal. I don't go around saying but CGC didn't design the game or whatever so it should cost considerably less than $10K.
Quoted from flashinstinct:All right folks I was made aware of transparent drop targets and have modified the design accordingly. Now All I need are votes. With numbers or with symbols?[quoted image]
I like the symbols but honestly could go either way.
But also, I'd do a check on how it looks under a green fluorescent plastic with the colors. I've seen one of the fluorescent plastics that keeps the Danesi locks uncovered, while it looks like the promo for these is fully covering them. I know with the Halloween CE, one of the tilt warning lights an ball locks are orange under an orange plastic so they disappear. The front drop target on this wouldn't be covered, but the back two would. Just some food for thought.
Quoted from rai:I don't buy things based on serious analysis of cost.
This whole circular argument that drop targets cost $3 each (add up all the parts) and that's what a pin should cost, that doesn't make any sense.
Most people will be happy and happier with Godzilla, DP, JP and so on and so on. But that doesn't mean TNA has to cost less than DP or JP or Godzilla. Buy whatever you want but it doesn't hurt anyone that TNA costs $9K.
Most pinsiders are data analysts on the side. Arguing about good or bad is too subjective for us, so breaking apart the BoM is the only thing we have to attach to the perceived notion of value for our toys.
Presume it kind of peaked out with some of the early JJP builds.. I mean, they were losing money putting those suckers together.. what better value to be had?
Quoted from JSC:Any serious analysis of cost needs to consider the fact that this is an unlicensed IP made as a home brew with rudimentary art that’s beeing re run. Also is made largely with stock parts.
^^^This guy gets it
Look guys I apologize if anyone took offense to my "Guesstimate" as I stated. But lets review some facts here. The fact is this is a homebrew pinball machine with only 250 being made. There is no licensing fee because it is Scott's homebrew project. Not having to pay licensing and development fees to me makes me believe that Scott the developer and creator will get their fare share for this particular run. Do all pinball designers make $2000-$2500 per game-C'mon seriously how dumb do you have to be to make that assumption. Most designers work for a company on a salary with benefits with a potential per game commission-this is not the case. Now did Scott make thousands on the first run not priced at 9k? -No he probably got $500 per machine. This is a basic P-roc game that to me does not have a lot of high dollar parts involved. The most expensive thing is probably the cabinet(still wondering today's rate from Churchill?) out of the entire build. What do you think the BOM was for the original run priced at $5800? Sorry for my opinion or guestimate but if Scott is making less than a couple thousand a game(priced at 9k with no distribution) -I feel he is getting the short end of the stick. I never said he does not deserve every penny and I think he is boarder line genius. Oh and I apologize about my comment about reusing old trim-but other companies have done it.
Quoted from koji:Most pinsiders are data analysts on the side. Arguing about good or bad is too subjective for us, so breaking apart the BoM is the only thing we have to attach to the perceived notion of value for our toys.
I have to admit it myself, in the TS4 thread (are you in or out) when I said $12K/$15K is outrageous for that pin, but people are free to buy it and they are buying it (good for them), I am glad to see it in the arcades.
I think JJP and now Spooky were responding to the flippers (people buying GNR CE for $12K and selling them for $15K or more. R&M, Godzilla LE etc.. people buying the games with no intention of playing it but just to turn around and make a quick $2K profit.
Companies saw this and said let's just keep the price so high that flippers can not top that price. Spook might not care since they only need/want to make 250 pins. JJP I am sure wanted to make more than 250 pins.
Quoted from pinmister:Not having to pay licensing fees to me makes me believe that Scott the developer and creator will get their fare share for this particular run. Do all pinball designers make $2000-$2500 per game-C'mon seriously how dumb do you have to be to make that assumption.
I was literally the first person to type this here and Spooky corrected me quickly. They did pay Scott a license to re-run these. The key is this is a niche non mainstream license that everyone outside of people tracking the inside of pinball would not know about. No, we don't know how much he got, but hopefully it was a nice payout.
Quoted from Zablon:but hopefully it was a nice payout.
Ok so I am not crazy for thinking he got thousands per game-good. I also just got a pm from a very nice pinsider that agrees with everything I have said(made me feel good).
Quoted from pinmister:Ok so I am not crazy for thinking he got thousands per game-good. I also just got a pm from a very nice pinsider that agrees with everything I have said(made me feel good).
I’m sorry. I couldn’t help myself…
1126BD78-CD11-420F-89F8-50B72CE8989C (resized).jpegQuoted from o07eleven:I like the symbols but honestly could go either way.
But also, I'd do a check on how it looks under a green fluorescent plastic with the colors. I've seen one of the fluorescent plastics that keeps the Danesi locks uncovered, while it looks like the promo for these is fully covering them. I know with the Halloween CE, one of the tilt warning lights an ball locks are orange under an orange plastic so they disappear. The front drop target on this wouldn't be covered, but the back two would. Just some food for thought.
I have opted to go fully transparent with these stickers without a white blocker in the back to let as much light shine through as possible. While I understand there's a colour plastic over the entire locking mechanism, there is not much I could do while still keeping within the colour tones to make it more stand out. That is the partial reason I kept the black outline to make sure things would pop even if the colours got muted. Let's hope this was the right call.
Quoted from jdoz2:It’s a game made by Scott. Spooky is paying him to make the game. The game is a licensed game.
Being a licensed game then couldnt the theme be picked up by Stern and have 2500 units made at $6900? 
Quoted from Kenz:TNA is a classic, simple but clever design. Awesome thumping soundtrack and a great theme..
Stern don’t do TNA’s only spooky can make games like this!
To quote GnR. Games like this only come round once in a lifetime!
To be accurate, this isn't spooky's design, idea, vision, coding, sound design nor anything. This was all Scott Danesi. The only thing Spooky did was pay scott a fee to mass produce them. Scott made a game he wanted to play for himself, and it just so happens Spooky saw an opportunity to make money on it. Also given another post that Scott made, he was unaware the price would be this high, which means he must not be getting as much as people think. Scott's a very humble and honest guy, he's talented but greedy is never a character trait I would ever associate with him. This pricing is all spooky.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Look, I'm not trying to pick on you. You say stupid things all the time with zero bearing on reality in the actual pinball business and I let it pass. Routinely.
Lol
03F48448-DBF6-4FE1-B22C-6CC7E5D34101.gifI thought I'd bring attention to this thread a comment I found from Scott's userhandle on PINSIDE when someone suggested if the PIN cost may rise to as high as 10K
Also for those wondering if they should sell their 1.0 to get a 2.0, I think this other post puts that to rest that it's not really 2.0, but just a re-run of 1.0 with some mods.
Given that information, I say used. 1.0 builds are a much better deal than this 10K after taxes and shipping spooky Re-run.
Quoted from turbo2nr:Stern probably makes 15%-20% max on a game.
I bet the profit margin is bit higher on premium games compared to pro's and way higher on LE games.
Quoted from mrm_4:Being a licensed game then couldnt the theme be picked up by Stern and have 2500 units made at $6900?
yeah, sure, Stern would probably give them away... sorry, just tired of this circular discussion and started the holiday weekend early. Have a well deserved labor day weekend.
Quoted from Jedi_Gill:I thought I'd bring attention to this thread a comment I found from Scott's userhandle on PINSIDE when someone suggested if the PIN cost may rise to as high as 10K
[quoted image]
Also for those wondering if they should sell their 1.0 to get a 2.0, I think this other post puts that to rest that it's not really 2.0, but just a re-run of 1.0 with some mods.
[quoted image]
Given that information, I say used. 1.0 builds are a much better deal than this 10K after taxes and shipping spooky Re-run.
THE GAME IS $9K, NO ONE IS PUTTING A GUN TO YOUR HEAD TO PAY $1K EXTRA FOR BUTTER. 1.0 games are a better deal because they were built 5 years ago when everything was 10-30% cheaper to build.
Quoted from Jedi_Gill:To be accurate, this isn't spooky's design, idea, vision, coding, sound design nor anything. This was all Scott Danesi. The only thing Spooky did was pay scott a fee to mass produce them. Scott made a game he wanted to play for himself, and it just so happens Spooky saw an opportunity to make money on it. Also given another post that Scott made, he was unaware the price would be this high, which means he must not be getting as much as people think. Scott's a very humble and honest guy, he's talented but greedy is never a character trait I would ever associate with him. This pricing is all spooky.
If Spooky didn't exist and convince Scott to mass produce the game it would still be a homebrew in his basement with little exposure outside of shows. You think Stern or JJP would mass produce a game like TNA? You paint a picture of Spooky like they're some greedy evil company preying on poor homebrew designers and screwing them over.
Quoted from manadams:THE GAME IS $9K, NO ONE IS PUTTING A GUN TO YOUR HEAD TO PAY $1K EXTRA FOR BUTTER
OK STOP YELLING 
Noticed a discount on spooky's website for the cheaper coat of margarine over butter... $9850. It's under $10K! It's a good news day!
Quoted from ctl723:Pricing discussions aside, thoughts on the new powder trim? I think I prefer the stainless (I have a number of early Bally SS machines so it feels "right"). Would Spooky let me order it that way? Or would that be a mistake?
Stainless is 1000% better looking.
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