(Topic ID: 168972)

Spooky Pinball 3rd Game - Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle


By ZenTron

3 years ago



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#1101 1 year ago
Quoted from Bonnevil69:

How exactly is P-Roc generic?? It’s far more customizable than any other control system. Have you noticed that there are tons of different projects going in radically different directions that are powered by it??

By generic I mean it has pre-set outputs.. I don't mean it's underpowered or underutilized in the least. I'm aware of every project P-roc is used in. It's a great system for hobbyists and production. However if you're going to optimize cost it's probably better to design your own board.

#1102 1 year ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

3 games made here use the same exact board... only AMH and AC will be different. All a part of it, and no different than Stern using SAM, Spike, Spike 2, etc.

Yup!

REV 1 was a board that had a PIC32MEGA devboard socketed on it. edit: I remember. Ben still runs this board for testing code changes.

REV 2 and REV 3 we added and removed features trying to figure out what we needed in a board set. It had a 16-segment display connector on it!

REV 4 First board set AMH ran on. A couple really early AMH run on this board set. The game shown at Chicago 2013 (i think?) had this board revision in it. It was pretty hacked up.

REV 5 Is the production AMH board. I think we had a couple improvements over the run of AMH.

REV 6 Never even made a prototype. Had some pretty radical ideas but we ended up not going this route.

REV 7 Majority of Spooky's games run on this board set. Current revision is REV7D. Lots of changes to make manufacturing of the board set easier over the life of the board set.

REV 8 New board set! Probably the most radical change of them all. As noted before we are considering this revision the End Of The Line. The board set has seen many changes and additions since we started it (2012? maybe 2011) that I would personally like to start from a clean slate after this.

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Also don't forget it's not like Ben is just sending the boards off to some prototype house, and then getting them stuffed at some no-name contract manufacturer.. Longhorn engineer (correct me if I'm wrong) has his own machine to wave solder boards so costs are kept low, even with revisions.

Correct, We have a a low volume high mix electronics assembly line here in Houston. Specialize in this kind of stuff

Quoted from toyotaboy:

However if you're going to optimize cost it's probably better to design your own board.

This.

13
#1103 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

However if you're going to optimize cost it's probably better to design your own board.

Please forgive my intrusion into this thread to discuss an off-topic point since Macrofab isn't owned by Spooky (please forgive and correct me if I'm wrong about that), but this is the biggest fallacy and mistake most new manufacturers make when deciding to use P-ROC or design their own. To be clear, the following is about new manufacturers without a control system solution. Spooky is not a new manufacturer anymore. They have done what many others have tried and failed to do... establish themselves as a successful and respected manufacturer of pinball machines.

Most look at BOM costs and ignore hardware R&D costs, software/framework R&D costs, availability of dev support and tools, and customer support costs. Almost every MFG who has designed their own system from scratch has spent quite a bit more money than they'd have spent adopting a boardset like the P-ROC/P3-ROC + PDBs and proven / feature-rich software framework like skeleton game. Anybody who tells you otherwise either had free/volunteer labor doing the R&D or isn't admitting the extent of their costs. Choosing to go with an established solution carries a lot of benefits that translate directly into shorter time-to-market and lower costs. Sure, if a MFG sells 10,000 machines, the amortized R&D and early/heavy support costs can eventually show you a net gain versus buying the established system, but there's a ton of risk to absorb on the journey to 10,000 machines, and that net gain isn't guaranteed even at those numbers.

Anyway, the numbers are different for Spooky and AC since they already have a solution and don't need to design one from scratch. We respect and support Spooky however they choose to move forward and have been happy to support their growth with P3-ROC and PDBs for TNA. I personally am looking forward to seeing AC just as much as many of you, regardless of which control system it uses. I've loved Alice Cooper's music ever since my brother introduced me to it in middle school.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

#1104 1 year ago
Quoted from LonghornEngineer:

REV 5 Is the production AMH board. I think we had a couple improvements over the run of AMH.

Will you have a stock of these boards, or the ability to remanufacture them, going forward? I don't anticipate any problems with my AMH, but with such small runs it must be an expensive proposition to keep an inventory of the various boards for the different games as they evolve.

#1105 1 year ago
Quoted from Claires-dad:

Ability to remanufacture them, going forward?

Totally. The best thing about our operations here in Houston it is easy to make more REV5s (or REV7) as needed. These board sets are also very easy to repair since currently all the parts are being manufactured (no EOL) and there are no custom ASICs.

We have been talking about pushing the platform out to hobbyists to enable more people to develop on the platform. Currently the only thing stopping this from happening is documentation of the software to make it easier for someone to pick up and use. We also would need to figure out how to protect the software IP Spooky has created around the platform to prevent another incident.

#1106 1 year ago
Quoted from LonghornEngineer:

We also would need to figure out how to protect the software IP Spooky has created around the platform to prevent another incident.

2x02-adrift-cap290 (resized).jpg

18
#1107 1 year ago
Quoted from LonghornEngineer:

to prevent another incident.

And I just got an email from China asking if I wanted to buy that game... I mean, "incident". Lol!!! You have to laugh or you will cry.

Both board sets are perfectly fine. We respect the hell out of Gerry and P-ROC and we're proud to have a production game on his system!

We're also proud of all the hard work that goes in the PinHeck system. Both are very capable, and both have their merits.

On the bright side, apparently what we've shown on Alice so far is good because we're down to debating the board that drives it!

Go play some TnA. Life is good!

#1108 1 year ago
Quoted from Medisinyl:

Are prior Spooky customers getting the first shot on these as AMH did with RZ? Looking amazing

That is what I have been told.

#1109 1 year ago

I do not understand anything on the last page other then it sounds like USB updates are coming on AC which I think is a great thing.

#1110 1 year ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I'm aware of every project P-roc is used in.

Seriously doubt that. I am has tied in as anyone, and I am 100% confident that there are projects I don't know about. Heck, every couple of weeks, I'll hear about one that has been going on for months that I was unaware of.

Quoted from toyotaboy:

However if you're going to optimize cost it's probably better to design your own board.

First off, the R&D costs could easily out weigh any cost optimization, and can also impact time to market. You are also talking about R&D costs that are upfront, and that can be a lot of expense long before revenue is coming in. Build vs Buy is always a difficult decisions for companies, but being focused on impact on BOM and ignoring all of the other costs, both in time and money, is dangerous.

Quoted from toyotaboy:

By generic I mean it has pre-set outputs.

The last thing I think a pinball company should do is create a new board for each machine, in order to have just the right amout of 'outputs' . Look at the frustration with Stern Node boards not being compatible from machine to machine. With P-roc, for example, you can take any board from a TNA and use it in a Houdini or P3, and vice versa. Obviously boards will evolve, just like the heck board has, and while it will not always be compatible across all machines, currently it is across a few different models. The only unique boards you would want to engineer are those that are very specific to a game. Even on Houdini, we built two custom boards for electronics, but both were built it so he could handle more 'stuff' then we needed, so we could re-use them on future games.

#1111 1 year ago

From Spooky's Twitter account.

17 ramps?!?!?!??!?!?

26907228_10154954147766260_7135553663088357038_n (resized).jpg

#1112 1 year ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

If anybody else is planning to start a pinball manufacturing business (it seems to be the thing to do these days), please contact me.

It is one thing to comment on R&D and manufacturing but trying to push your own product in another manufactures thread is tacky.

#1113 1 year ago
Quoted from Sinestro:

17 ramps?!?!?!??!?!?

Lol... running joke from Dead Flip. We had to cost out 2 of them.

#1114 1 year ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

Lol... running joke from Dead Flip. We had to cost out 2 of them.

Well, shoot.....and here I was hoping for a Pinball Circus-like Haunted Castle!

Not!!

#1115 1 year ago
Quoted from Sinestro:

From Spooky's Twitter account.
17 ramps?!?!?!??!?!?

An estimate from Pinside armchair accountants would be $17k just in ramps alone.

#1116 1 year ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Most look at BOM costs and ignore hardware R&D costs, software/framework R&D costs, availability of dev support and tools, and customer support costs. Almost every MFG who has designed their own system from scratch has spent quite a bit more money than they'd have spent adopting a boardset like the P-ROC/P3-ROC + PDBs and proven / feature-rich software framework like skeleton game. Anybody who tells you otherwise either had free/volunteer labor doing the R&D or isn't admitting the extent of their costs. Choosing to go with an established solution carries a lot of benefits that translate directly into shorter time-to-market and lower costs. Sure, if a MFG sells 10,000 machines, the amortized R&D and early/heavy support costs can eventually show you a net gain versus buying the established system, but there's a ton of risk to absorb on the journey to 10,000 machines, and that net gain isn't guaranteed even at those numbers.

Agreed.. there is always ROI to be calcuated before making that decision. And I even said "great system for hobbyists and production". But there's R&D in the real world, and then there's the Ben heck world. Seems Ben has always built things with many hours because he likes to, not banking on something making money. I don't think he ever intended to even sell AMH. It was another hobby project, and it was more done than Chuck's pinball so they went with it. He's said he's easily spent thousands of hours on AMH (building up the framework and then coding modes). If you calculated that as a salary it would easily be in the 6 figures.

Quoted from rosh:

I am has tied in as anyone, and I am 100% confident that there are projects I don't know about. Heck, every couple of weeks, I'll hear about one that has been going on for months that I was unaware of

I meant I am aware of (probably) every publically posted project. I can't possibly know about everyone working privately in a small group on a project.

10
#1117 1 year ago
Quoted from LonghornEngineer:

It is one thing to comment on R&D and manufacturing but trying to push your own product in another manufactures thread is tacky.

Agreed - very bad taste. Sorry. I've deleted that bit from my post.

Quoted from toyotaboy:

Agreed.. there is always ROI to be calcuated before making that decision. And I even said "great system for hobbyists and production". But there's R&D in the real world, and then there's the Ben heck world. Seems Ben has always built things with many hours because he likes to, not banking on something making money. I don't think he ever intended to even sell AMH. It was another hobby project, and it was more done than Chuck's pinball so they went with it. He's said he's easily spent thousands of hours on AMH (building up the framework and then coding modes). If you calculated that as a salary it would easily be in the 6 figures.

Absolutely. Same story with everybody I respect and enjoy working with in this industry. That's one thing I think we can all agree on... it takes passion, dedication, and the willingness to work amazingly hard for little to no compensation to get through the foundational work required to build a company and/or products in this industry.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

14
#1118 1 year ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

it takes passion, dedication, and the willingness to work amazingly hard for little to no compensation to get through the foundational work required to build a company and/or products in this industry.

And the TWIPY award for best phrased harsh reality of pinball winner is....

Only way to know is to be here doing all this... and I don't recommend that to anyone. It's not good for your mental or physical health. Yet, here we are, and still thrilled to be doing what we do!

#1119 1 year ago

......Ha, wrong thread....

-4
#1120 1 year ago
Quoted from rubberducks:

Freedom to do what they want. Entirely in charge of this part of their supply chain, and now that it is pretty well developed (most development costs over), no margin to a third party.

Pretty sure Longhorn doesn't work for Spooky - Macrofab is a third-party as well.

Quoted from rubberducks:

If it works and it's not over-complicated, it's probably a good decision.

Looks pretty complicated to me - game rules on a microcontroller, graphics on a third-party Linux PC running separate software...

Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

3 games made here use the same exact board... only AMH and AC will be different. All a part of it, and no different than Stern using SAM, Spike, Spike 2, etc.

Well, actually *quite* different than Stern - SAM ran for over a decade unchanged and totally backwards compatible. Spike was a failure, hence Spike 2, and look at all the compatibility issues they're having.

Quoted from toyotaboy:

PROC is very generic. If you're a pinball company, you estimate how many I/O's you'll likely have and only build what you need

That seems like a plus to me - every game has the same boards in it, or backward compatible ones. Instead you're saying it's good that one game's board won't work in another because it's missing I/O lines or coil drivers? You're saving pennies - literal pennies, a IRF540 is like 5 cents in bulk.

I dunno, to me, offloading the development and manufacture of pinball control systems to a company DEDICATED to the task seems like a smart move. They will ALWAYS be more efficient and cheaper than you doing it yourself. Lesson number one in the startup world is "outsource everything but your core competency" which in this case is designing and building pins.

#1121 1 year ago

I wish Spooky would follow TNA’s production numbers method instead of limiting the run to 500. I’m never going to be a day 1 buyer, which means I might miss out on a good game. Are they trying to bump up the value of this pin? Because it seems like the pricing is fair for what the game is.

I just don’t get Spooky’s move here. I think TNA did it right with the quantity 50 runs.

#1122 1 year ago
Quoted from Allibaster:

I just don’t get Spooky’s move here. I think TNA did it right with the quantity 50 runs.

Parts are more expensive (per piece) in batches of 50 than 500.

#1123 1 year ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Looks pretty complicated to me - game rules on a microcontroller, graphics on a third-party Linux PC running separate software...

None of which is your concern, since you don't work for Spooky.

Quoted from jwilson:

Well, actually *quite* different than Stern - SAM ran for over a decade unchanged and totally backwards compatible. Spike was a failure, hence Spike 2, and look at all the compatibility issues they're having.

Um, no, SPIKE 2 wasn't made because SPIKE 1 was a failure. It was a more advanced system, needed to drive the LCD display.

#1124 1 year ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

Parts are more expensive (per piece) in batches of 50 than 500.

My concern is more with the limited nature of the game.

51
#1125 1 year ago
Quoted from jwilson:

You're saving pennies - literal pennies, a IRF540 is like 5 cents in bulk.

Hi... I would like to order 10,000 of your .05 cent mosfets please.

You'd have to work here and see exactly why we make the decisions we do. It's not a matter of a few pennies, and nothing I will talk about in a public forum.

Quoted from Allibaster:

I wish Spooky would follow TNA’s production numbers method instead of limiting the run to 500

Year 1 - Start up year, didn't make a dime.
Year 2 - AMH slowly started selling... made 150 units.
Year 3 - Sold 300 RZ, moved to new shop to handle it.
Year 4 - We built over 400 units.
Year 5 - This year, shooting for over 500 units.

It's all a natural progression. None of this comes easy, and you can only build so fast at our level... last thing I want is people waiting 2 years for a game.

#1126 1 year ago

Just keep pumping out awesome games.

#1127 1 year ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

Hi... I would like to order 10,000 of your .05 cent mosfets please.

Same! I assume those 5 cent mosfets install themselves as well

https://octopart.com/search?q=IRF540%20&start=0

-15
#1128 1 year ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

Hi... I would like to order 10,000 of your .05 cent mosfets please.

You’re right, they’re not 5 cents, they’re only a penny.

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/-MOSFET-IRL540N_60677370236.html?spm=a2700.7724857.main07.25.796571eaHBMEOs

#1129 1 year ago

Yes lets base part of our supply chain on a none authorized source of parts! What can go wrong. Surely not counterfeit parts or exploding parts!

#1130 1 year ago
Quoted from jwilson:

You’re right, they’re not 5 cents, they’re only a penny.

And tack on the inflated shipping fees they tag you with... plus you only get them for a penny when you buy 10,000,000! Lol... that's a lot of pennies.

#1131 1 year ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

And tack on the inflated shipping fees they tag you with... plus you only get them for a penny when you buy 10,000,000! Lol... that's a lot of pennies.

And subtract 10% for all the defects you get.

#1132 1 year ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

And tack on the inflated shipping fees they tag you with... plus you only get them for a penny when you buy 10,000,000! Lol... that's a lot of pennies.

Just put them on ignore Charlie, they are never worth it.

#1133 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

And subtract 10% for all the defects you get.

10 %, so I assume your testing and man-hours required to replace are free? The simple fact is that you cannot get reliable parts for pennies if you factor in quality and the time it takes to switch defective ones out.

I love what yinz are doing and my only complaint is I want to see the damn playfield on this game already!!!!!!!!

#1134 1 year ago
Quoted from Allibaster:

I wish Spooky would follow TNA’s production numbers method instead of limiting the run to 500. I’m never going to be a day 1 buyer, which means I might miss out on a good game.

You can always buy the game 2nd hand. Or even new in box from someone else. That decided not to open it.

#1135 1 year ago
Quoted from Allibaster:

My concern is more with the limited nature of the game.

Licenses typically come with timeframes , Spooky is making sure they can produce a set number of games within the timeframe allowed by the license holder .

30
#1136 1 year ago
Quoted from trilogybeer:

Spooky is making sure they can produce a set number of games within the timeframe allowed by the license holder .

Yep! All part of it.

And Spooky has never sold more than 300 of anything before... although TnA will crack that mark, and we have a feeling ACNC will do just fine!

All good problems to face. Happy to be here!

#1137 1 year ago
Quoted from benheck:

And subtract 10% for all the defects you get.

Ben, have you ever noticed that some companies on Alibaba have your picture in their product images? I can't find it right now, but remember coming across it awhile ago.

#1138 1 year ago
Quoted from Allibaster:

My concern is more with the limited nature of the game.

Even with ACNC being limited to 500 units you will have no problem getting one if this game comes out to your liking. I got in at the very end of the RZ run and several are for sale as we speak. Folks are constantly changing up their lineups and it seems we are in a great time for pinball at the moment as we have several new titles each year to choose from.

#1139 1 year ago
Quoted from davijc02:

Even with ACNC being limited to 500 units you will have no problem getting one if this game comes out to your liking. I got in at the very end of the RZ run and several are for sale as we speak. Folks are constantly changing up their lineups and it seems we are in a great time for pinball at the moment as we have several new titles each year to choose from.

Agree and don't get caught up into the price folks will be charging at the beginning of the run,I remember when the first Rz games were in the 9000.00 range and look at them now,I was in a hurry to get in one one and completed a really bad trade for a Rz le ,I traded for my loaded acdc pre and lost my pants on that deal so if you want an ac just sit back and wait and don't pay over retail for one.i have to say I love my Rz le and play it a ton more than I ever did my acdc and don't regret trading just stings a bit on how much I payed for it.

-3
#1140 1 year ago
Quoted from jgentry:

Just put them on ignore Charlie, they are never worth it.

Just block me because I dare question?

Look, I really like what Spooky and Charlie are doing - he’ll, he’s personally helped me on my custom game project - but sometimes I get a little tired of the “Spooky can do no wrong” fanboy parade.

I think it’s healthy to ask questions and wonder why things are being done a certain way that might not make sense on the surface. Yes, obviously I’m not party to all the inner workings and I have enough business experience to know what doesn’t appear logical might actually be logical when you see the whole picture.

Yeah, that Alibaba link wasn’t meant to be serious, obviously you want a higher quality source, but I posted it to prove the point that making decisions about pennies often costs dollars later. In the software business it’s called “Technical Debt” and this is one of the clearest cases I’ve seen.

Anyway, this isn’t really the thread for this discussion, this is about Alice. I just felt the need to address the downvote brigade since I’m actually a Spooky supporter (I was in on RZ and now I’m saving up for a TNA).

#1141 1 year ago
Quoted from davijc02:

Folks are constantly changing up their lineups

There's finite space. People can't horde. So, yeah, outside of Kingpin or something, there really isn't a title that can't be acquired whenever you want it.

14
#1142 1 year ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Just block me because I dare question?
Look, I really like what Spooky and Charlie are doing - he’ll, he’s personally helped me on my custom game project - but sometimes I get a little tired of the “Spooky can do no wrong” fanboy parade.
I think it’s healthy to ask questions and wonder why things are being done a certain way that might not make sense on the surface. Yes, obviously I’m not party to all the inner workings and I have enough business experience to know what doesn’t appear logical might actually be logical when you see the whole picture.
Yeah, that Alibaba link wasn’t meant to be serious, obviously you want a higher quality source, but I posted it to prove the point that making decisions about pennies often costs dollars later. In the software business it’s called “Technical Debt” and this is one of the clearest cases I’ve seen.
Anyway, this isn’t really the thread for this discussion, this is about Alice. I just felt the need to address the downvote brigade since I’m actually a Spooky supporter (I was in on RZ and now I’m saving up for a TNA).

Strange, I do not see a single question that you asked in either of those posts

Perhaps if you actually asked a question instead of posting the way you did you might get a different response.

#1143 1 year ago
Quoted from jgentry:

Strange, I do not see a single question that you asked in either of those posts
Perhaps if you actually asked a question instead of posting the way you did you might get a different response.

Agreed.

#1144 1 year ago
Quoted from frolic:

There's finite space.

I can always find a place to put a pin it’s more of an issue with being able to pay for them all for me.

#1145 1 year ago
Quoted from jgentry:

Strange, I do not see a single question that you asked in either of those posts

Why continue to expand and redesign a control system with limited capabilities, going as far as to leverage a completely separate computer for display purposes, when a mature, proven and well-supported system has existed for years? That was the question. It was never actually answered, I was just downvoted into oblivion because "reasons".

Now they've spent years and who knows how much money to get to an end-of-life design that isn't backwards compatible. On the surface this seems crazy, so I was asking "why" and none of the reasons I was given - "in-house is better", "keep the number of transistors down" - make any sense.

I suppose I should have known better than to try and reason with people's emotions. Emotion always trumps reason.

#1146 1 year ago
Quoted from jwilson:

Why continue to expand and redesign a control system with limited capabilities, going as far as to leverage a completely separate computer for display purposes, when a mature, proven and well-supported system has existed for years? That was the question. It was never actually answered, I was just downvoted into oblivion because "reasons".

Cost reasons. I won't say what the difference between PinHeck + R&D verse buying PROC out right but the PinHeck + R&D time is cheaper.

#1147 1 year ago
Quoted from LonghornEngineer:

Cost reasons. I won't say what the difference between PinHeck + R&D verse buying PROC out right but the PinHeck + R&D time is cheaper.

Have you considered though that you might not actually understand things, from your limited insider perspective, clouded by facts and direct experience? Perhaps what you need is some insight from someone on the outside, who doesn't actually know anything about details like "numbers" and "costs" and other fancy buzz words?

#1148 1 year ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Have you considered though that you might not actually understand things, from your limited insider perspective, clouded by facts and direct experience? Perhaps what you need is some insight from someone on the outside, who doesn't actually know anything about details like "numbers" and "costs" and other fancy buzz words?

I've been involved in game design and production and know plenty of people in the industry, both back at Williams and now, but don't let that get in the way of your cute little jab. Don't you have a name to drop somewhere else?

13
#1149 1 year ago

How about lets keep this thread on topic and not a pissing match.

giphy (resized).png

#1150 1 year ago

This is the most excited I've been for a release since TNA and I truly mean that as a huge complement.

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