The Grand Canyon formed faster than that money pit

In the event it’s Evil Dead trilogy that would also make sense with the stacked and loaded play fields...

Main Playfield - Evil Dead
Additional mini playfield - Evil Dead 2
Additional mini playfield - Army of Darkness

Doing a real full-scale lower Krull-style playfield would be FANTASTIC. Maybe that's the reason for the new playfield sliders.

It’s so that the line uses less grease when working on the assembly line...

7E683CB8-7E3C-46EF-AB6E-F4DA8D4D030B.gif

"Brick Proof" thems fightin' words! Lol

So this would have solved my "brick" where the SSD went catatonic?

Dual Wound Coils, and 3 (or more?, multiple?) upper playfields!?

Sounds Stacked and Loaded!

Yes!!! A Zelda Pin would be awesome!!

C4575412-D303-4A2E-94A7-B9D3AEE562B5 (resized).png

Except that Evil Dead and Evil Dead 2 were essentially the same movies. Still hoping for an ED /AoD/ Ash vs. ED pin of some sort though!!

A slight derail from the original Spooky thread, but I posted this in another thread (about flippers) awhile ago. Just an interesting screenshot of some Stern flipper current since it was mentioned:

I also have currents for DI (which is pulsed), Houdini, and I believe a NGG.
************

Sorry, a little off topic since this is about a Stern and not a CGC, but interesting nonetheless since everyone's wondering what's going on with the flippers (i.e. are the manufacturer's doing PWM, is it the angle, voltage?) on a modern pin...

Just for the heck of it, I put my 'clamp on' current probe (for a scope) on my BM66 right flipper. The probe's output is 1mV = 0.1A. 20KHz bandwidth, meaning plenty fast enough to catch any short blips (i.e. PWM) down to 50uS.

You can see when the main coil fires, it goes to 112mV. So 112mV x 0.1 = 11.2 amps. You can also see it settle down to 13.6mV in the hold scenario. 13.6mV x 0.1 = 1.36A. If I hold the flipper button longer, the 13.6mV section gets longer, indicating it is really in the 'hold' mode'.

I suspect the dip in the high current section is due to the metal core beginning to actually moving out of the solenoid, changing the inductance.

Each division is 20mS. From the start of the high power pulse to where it goes to low power is maybe ~50mS.

I should adjust the flipper power (edit: Looks like it was removed from 'adjustments'?), and look to see how it affects the pulse width of the higher current measurement. Ideally, I should measure voltage too, but I figured this was good enough for now.

I had a AFMr at one point, would have been interesting to see the difference compared to an original AFM.

pasted_image (resized).png
***************

OK, back to the Next Spooky pin

I'll admit to being confused. I didn't say dual wound coils were the end all solution. I said I prefer dual wound coils, but there are tradeoffs. I also don't understand why you think single-wound coils coupled with higher frequency drive logic are clearly better. Your data shows otherwise and suggests there are some machine-level things at play here, not just drive frequencies, and that's my entire point. There are plenty examples of Stern games and P-ROC games without heat issues, and there are lots of mechs in many machines that would work better if they were designed differently and especially if certain operating parameters were considered when selecting the coils and such. It's not as black and white as you want to make it, but it's easy to point fingers at whatever you want to blame as the root cause.

Ok, feel free to tell me I'm wrong again, and we'll leave it at that.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Pic from https://pinmonk.com/products/tibetan-breeze-2-flipper-coil-cooling-kit
tibetan breeze v1.5 spike 2 (resized).png

Hey gang,

I got my Spooky “Fang Club” goodies and decided to spend the evening unboxing them (and … since I had not unwrapped my Stern Insider box from Months ago yet well … did that, too). I tried not to read about what was in them to be surprised and I think THAT was the tough part of it all. Haha.

Anyway, maybe there is a clue in there that I missed aboute the new Spooky reveal. You sure got me on this one.

Jenn and I thank you for watching.
Chris Bucci

You're confusing flip with hold. I'm talking about HOLD exclusively here. For trap players, it's a major source of heat. On Stern machines, the heat comes almost exclusively from the flip, not the hold, and it's damned impressive. It appears that the microsecond duty cycle is responsible for the hold temp improvement because SAM and Whitestar did not have this great result.

Hold any PRoc3 flipper up for a half hour with a Stern Spike machine next to it doing the same, ideally with the same or similar coils. There will be a large temp difference between them at the end of the half hour because Stern's micropulses manage heat amazingly when the flipper is held and that results in a stable temp over time, not rising much at all. Proc3 cannot compete in hold temp management in my experience, and I believe it's due to the difference in duty cycle granularity. I'll do this test next time I have a PRoc3 around and post the results if you don't believe me (but I know you must).

Looking at my screen shot of Stern flipper current above, it doesn't look like there any pulsing going on. And with something as massive as a coil, uS pulses won't make any difference thermally - it's the duty cycle. And in this case, it appears to 100%.

You sure microsecond long pulses machine gunned won't make any difference? Because it seems to. The line between Spike and all Stern systems before it is night and day for hold temps and the duty cycle is the only thing I can see to account for it. What's the bandwidth of the Hantek scope you used?

It's the duty cycle that is important. If the flipper is on for mS, then off for microseconds - that's insignificant thermally. There's just a lot of thermal mass w/a flipper coil.

On for mS, then off for mS - yeah, that would make a difference. But it doesn't appear that Stern is even bothering w/that (unless it's faster then 50uS since the current probe's BW rolls off).

I should add, I don't want to make it sound like I'm speaking for Gerry or Ben - was just showing a screenshot/posting I happened to have.

I do have a DI screen shot somewhere - that coil does appear to pulsed.

Didn't mean to derail the thread. I guess we're bored waiting for the new release.

Found the DI flipper current measurement (below). Same as above 1mV = 0.1A

pasted_image (resized).png

I don't think you missed anything, unless the new pin is Dracula/Bela themed, or COVID themed, there's not much to glean from the fang box.

Guessing that a Stern that PWM's at the uS level is probably not showing up on your scope.

Current consumption is not an instant fall-off, look at your BM66 example you've got nearly 10ms fall time from high to hold. That's an eternity if doing uS pulses, so those are likely being "smoothed off" in your readings.

If you wanna go super-dork, probe the gate pinout of the associated MOSFET (assuming it's single wound?)

I said I'd leave it at that, but then you changed the argument! You're actually correct about the microsecond pulses (sorry mbwalker) delivering a better heat response than millisecond pulses at the exact same duty cycle. It's because the field collapses less before it's reactivated, essentially requiring less effort to hold the flipper up than if the coil turned off for longer. Your challenge and conclusion above is for single wound coils, and you're right. Both will work, but longer pulses (same duty cycle) will generate more heat, up to a point. I didn't disagree with any of that.

What I disagree with (aside from your blanket and incorrect claims about platform limitations) is that a single wound coil with microsecond pulses will deliver a cooler heat profile than a dual wound using a hold coil. All else being equal (same mechanicals, same airflow/ventilation, same flip times, etc), the dual wound will perform better. I'll happily accept your challenge. Let's do it at a show early next year.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Still waiting on raza. Bets are on, do I get raza or the next spooky machine faster. My bet is on spooky.

This looks like crytocurrency

Don't understand the techno mumbo jumbo debates but find them much more interesting than post the name of every movie, show, toy, etc you've ever seen

So anyhow the next pin is Gremlins right?

Is the next run of TNA not using p3 circuit boards?

I'm fully vaccinated but I will not be at any shows until these variants are sussed out. The India/delta variant took full protection of the Pfizer vaccine from 93% protection down to 88% according to recent studies. That effectiveness will fall further while more low-information people are sheltering the disease and percolating even more virulent variants, so large gatherings are unsafe for the foreseeable future, even for the vaccinated. My view is I only have ONE chance not to get it and potentially infect my family because COVID-19 and its long term damage is a one-way street, so I will not take any chance as long as fully vaccinated protection is sub-90s%.

This demo sounds fun, though, and I've tested both dual and single wound coils enough to know that Spike's micro pulses for the hold destroy the hold line heat management performance of every dual wound over time I've tested. But sure, a head to head demonstration is MADE for a show, so hopefully sometime next year it will be safe enough to do it! I'm totally down for it.

how awesome would that be

Okay. Which one of you boys is this?

43D212F8-A2BE-4236-9332-62D8D73C1177 (resized).png

Saw that quality video and game update. I love spooky. Sent in my 45 to join the club as I’m hoping the next game is nightmare or Halloween. Both are instant buys for new. If it’s not, happy to support them with as well. Loaded with Multiple upper pfs? Collectors at 10k. Yes please

Ben: Roger that - only so much I can do with w/20KHz BW $50 current probe. I do recall zooming in, seeing if I could spot anything in the 50uS range of the current probe without any luck. Looking at the gate - I would have plenty of BW to spot that.

The current probe should have easily caught the high-to-hold transition, so not sure why I didn't see anything there (scope was on full BW). It was just a quick measurement, so I didn't give it much thought.

I did compare my probe to a rather fast Tek probe at work. W/respect to current - actually pretty accurate. But didn't bother examining BW tho.

That makes sense, Gerry. I am surprised it's in the uS range (I usually think of single digit uS pulses, not tens or hundreds of uS). How many uS are you typically talking about (just curious)?

Anyways, thought I would share some screen shots I had just to help the discussion along.

Back to guessing the next Spooky pin!

And my 401K last year around spring!

Sub 10k for CE with multiple upper playfields / stacked & loaded sounds great... It would be nice to have "collectors" or that of the die hard must have fan base who really want the theme and not flippers on the second had market. Spooky should limited them exclusively through their own site without distributors specifically for "Fang Members". When you limited them to say 200 - 500 of them, the pinside marketplace & other platforms will likely be 15k-20k. It's going to be GnR fiasco all over again...

You actually think a $40 paywall is going to stop flippers? Any 'limited number' is going to have flippers, regardless the excuse the seller makes. Additionally, since they aren't making 1000/day whoever gets them first are more prone to flipping them for profit.

The LE/CE etc model that everyone seems to love to throw their money at is exactly the issue causing so much of the flipping everyone hates.

I'd put $5 on them opening all versions up for sale and however many they sell decides the number for each version.

I'm really excited about this one.. Multiple Playfield levels should be epic. We know the artist.. I'm stoked.

They can have my money now.. Throwing money at spooky.. Big baller bills.

Alright time for confession, which one of you is this?

pasted_image (resized).png

To answer your question, no.

However, if it's three (or more?) then we're entering into "never-been-done-before-except-Pinball-Circus" territory.

Spooky going that crazy?

Later,
EV

Spookey. Give me some sugar baby.

So with Rick and Morty selling out so darn fast.

I'm curious, did they send an email out to Members with purchase options? Prior to selling out?

Man my memory is fuzzy, but I know I didn't sign up until the day before they went on sale. There was a short video teaser a few days prior, but maybe FANG members were notified earlier than the video. I just know there was not much time between the tease until they went on sale. Blink and you missed it.

I'm surprised people seem so stoked for multiple upper playfields, usually around here all you hear is how much people hate them. I'm one of those that likes them(and lowers). You only have so much room and ball visibility to make them interesting if you are doing more than 1. Interested to see what they have in their coffin.

No

Surely listening to smart people talk about nerd stuff makes me smarter too, right?... right? Either way, I'm finding it quite interesting.

Plus, when we can start gathering to play pinball again, Im going to be able to throw out some fancy terms to pretend I know things.

Player 1: "Ya know, I really like the pulse width modulation on the current Stern flippers, I'd prefer dual wound coils overall, but the heat dissipation is actually quite good."

Player 2: "Uh... what?"

Player 1: "Oh sorry, I'm up"

Player 2: "... wow, that man must be a genius"

I just looked through my old emails. I had an email on Dec 15th around 8pm talking about the pre-sale for Fang Club members on Monday Dec 16th at 9am central. There were 2 versions (Bloodsuckers and Standard), and there was a video released before that showing the game.

If I remember correctly, it was a night before announcement with the Fang Club purchase window opening at 10am (7am pacific) on the next day. I remember this because being Pacific, I was hung over and overslept the purchase window. I was still able to get one through my distributor though.

Come to think of it, I believe I missed the announcement as well due to the same "party" that caused the hangover.

Tuesday is a great day for a reveal!

Fingers crossed for Twin Peaks: The Return pinball!

TPTR.jpg

Maybe it was you but I seem to remember this conversation at the time lol.

For me, I just happened to log in and see the thread announcement at the right time. I don't think anyone was expecting the chaos that ensued.

lmfao

Could have been, but o-din had the exact same story. We were not partying together though... Lol

nerds (resized).JPG

Revenge of the Nerds pin confirmed!