(Topic ID: 205155)

*SPOILERS* -TROS* Star Wars: TLJ is really bad & other Star Wars/Disney/Marvel

By InfiniteLives

2 years ago

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  • Latest reply 1 day ago by kvan99
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    Topic poll

    “Star Wars: The Last Jedi was...”

    • garbage, the worst of the main films 210 votes
    • decent, better than the prequels 239 votes
    • really good, on par with the originals 78 votes
    • great! one of the best 72 votes
    • who cares, star wars sucks 42 votes

    (641 votes)

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    Topic index (key posts)

    3 key posts have been marked in this topic

    Post #2827 Analysis worth watching. Posted by gdonovan (1 year ago)

    Post #3520 Path to get Disney + discounted. Thanks @fosaisu Posted by fosaisu (5 months ago)

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    #2227 1 year ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    As discussed here already, I'm not sure how you would follow up The Last Jedi with something people will get excited about, the well has been poisoned.

    Disney needs to make a great movie, and they don't really know how to do that anymore. Walt Disney was all about innovation, risks, imagination, dreaming big. Disney today is all about playing it safe, sequels, reboots, recycling old content and trying to maximize profits accordingly. Disney needs to make a GREAT Star Wars movie. They need to differentiate themselves from the mindless summer blockbuster model with familiar faces and lots of explosions and action scenes. They need to take risks, chances, and develop a powerful story and invite the audience to experience it in an engrossing and compelling way.

    For now, the well is poisoned. The goodwill of Star Wars fans has been poisoned, the quality of the franchise has been poisoned, and the leadership at Disney has been poisoned. JJ Abrams is not the person to fix this, I don't know who is...if I was Disney, I might spend $100M to bring in James Cameron. T2, Aliens, True Lies, and to a lesser extent Titanic and Avatar...if he even would want the challenge at this point in his life.

    1 month later
    #2434 1 year ago

    Just something I find kind of interesting...

    Multipliers are historically an industry metric of a movie's performance. Total domestic box office revenues divided by domestic opening weekend. A multiplier of 3 is considered ok. A multiplier of 4 is considered very good for a big budget blockbuster. The higher numbers indicate a movie that is sustaining itself with positive word of mouth and positive fan experience. People are going back to see it again, telling their friends to go see it.

    The first three star wars movies had unthinkably high multipliers, industry changing, nothing ever like it. Titanic is another freakish outlier at 21. The star wars prequels dropped off considerably. The last two movies trended downwards, but this is part of a bigger trend. The box office magic and mind boggling multipliers are in the past, and the momentum is downwards. Part of that is Lucas' fault, his prequels were ok, but nothing groundbreaking or industry changing (even with unprecedented CGI). But he handed off the franchise in solid blockbuster ranges. Kathleen Kennedy took this to a whole different level, and I don't think that kind of damage can be fixed by anyone at Disney. Anyone want to place bets on the multiplier for the next star wars movie?

    Star Wars Ep. IV: A New Hope 296.56
    Star Wars Ep. V: The Empire Strikes Back 59.11
    Star Wars Ep. VI: Return of the Jedi 13.43
    Star Wars Ep. I: The Phantom Menace 7.32
    Star Wars Ep. II: Attack of the Clones 3.88
    Star Wars Ep. III: Revenge of the Sith 3.51
    Star Wars Ep. VII: The Force Awakens 3.78
    Rogue One: A Star Wars Story 3.43
    Star Wars Ep. VIII: The Last Jedi 2.82
    Solo: A Star Wars Story 2.53

    #2438 1 year ago
    Quoted from racer_x:

    I'm not sure that's a fair metric in the age of 20 screen megaplexes. I'd be interested to see the number of screens in 2018 versus 1977.
    I'd imagine most modern films are much more front loaded because they have such wide release. We no longer have to wait a few weeks for the local bijou to pick up a movie we want to see.

    The crazy numbers for A New Hope will never be replicated for exactly the reasons you suggest. I remember original trilogy shows selling out, and there was fear of that with Phantom Menace when people bought tickets weeks in advance.

    Nowadays, the opening weekend is mostly about marketing and branding. You don't need a great movie to have a great opening, just abroad distribution and strong marketing. But we still have high multipliers for good movies that people return to see, and that spread by word of mouth. Here were a couple of strong ones from last year...TGS is one of the highest since Titanic (21).

    The Greatest Showman 19.8
    Jumanji: Welcome to the Jungle (2017) 7.7

    #2476 1 year ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    The whole new trilogy is a train wreck. The rebels won at the end of Jedi.. and now they are the resistance? They were by definition the government, what the hell happened? All slapdash without out a plan. train wreck.

    Bingo. The new Star Wars could have been about the rebuilding of the Republic. The rebels could struggle with the issues of empire, and corrupting influences of power. Imagine Leia giving orders to bomb civilian targets like cities in order to destroy the old empire remnants in order to save more lives in the overall conflict. WWII thinking all over, with all of the moral complexity and soul searching. Think Dresden and Hiroshima. They are in charge now, and get all the blame and credit. Its easy to be the outsider political party and complain, much harder to govern. This could have been great, and maybe Disney could have explored Empire supporters who think they are doing good. Challenge the audience, maybe the Republic starts to turn into the "new" evil Empire, and restoration of the jedi order is needed to help moderate and temper this tremendous power empire creates.

    Instead Disney copped out. This is Social Justice Warrior propaganda, and you can't do that when you are the ones in power. SJW only works when you are the marginalized victim, so they needed a new bad guy. They could have gone for the progressive diversity message of Start Trek, but that has no grounding in identity politics. They also lacked the subtlety of Lucas who always painted the stormtroopers in white, and Vader in black. Images of absolutes of a totalitarian regime. Disney couldn't restrain themselves at all less the audience not "get" their political message, so the first order has to use all sorts of Nazi imagery to drive their message home with the nuance of a sledgehammer.

    I hope they fix this. The best thing we have going for us as Star Wars fans is that the backlash and outcry has been so overwhelming, Disney's financials are at risk. We have their attention, now it is their turn to make something great. Here's to hoping.

    3 months later
    #2734 1 year ago

    Despite our many differences, our divergent walks through life, and coming from a breadth of life experiences, we may all find unity this holiday season in the fact that The Last Jedi was fucking terrible.

    #2738 1 year ago

    You could be correct. I think there is a very real possibility that this movie was as bad as it was intentionally, although Kennedy may not think it is "bad" so much as "necessary." What better way to crush patriarchy than to destroy the very masculine idols and culture that young boys grow up with? Sometimes you must burn the world so something new may rise in its place. We always knew this new trilogy was going to be about saying farewell to Luke, Leia, and Han...I suspect Kennedy is trying to say "goodbye" to far more than that...

    #2762 1 year ago
    Quoted from kvan99:

    Check out this article, another shill that thinks we're Russian bots. They must think we're all right-wing Breitbart bunch. Um, I'm a Democrat.

    I am unsure if the author sincerely believe there is a Russian backed conspiracy against TLJ, or if he is simply trying to discredit anyone who dislikes the film.

    If the author sincerely believes there is a vast conspiracy against TLJ, I think he is naive, but so be it. But if he is trying to discredit the people who disliked TLJ, that is far more interesting. Why would he do that? Does he have a financial interest in seeing Disney profit? Did he really love this movie so much he is hurt that anyone else would disagree? Is he promoting an agenda in TLJ and trying to de-legitimatize the unhappy fans as his "opponents?" And this guy isn't the only one promoting the Russian troll conspiracy. I can't recall ever seeing fans critical of a bad movie attacked by the media before...interesting.

    2 months later
    #2973 12 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Rotten Tomatoes does away with "are you going to see this movie" poll for some reason.

    I'm not sure we are Orwellian just yet, but this looks to do with corporate profits. Every now and then we get movies like Star Wars, Titanic and such that continue to do well at the box office for months. But that is very difficult to count on for a movie studio, word of mouth is unreliable, and if fans hate the movie it will not last long in the theaters. Movie studios hate risk, just like any business nowadays. So instead of counting on making a great movie and getting the support of word of mouth, they heavily blitz the market with ads, tv interviews, promotional events, and try to recoup all of their money in the first weekend, or first couple of weeks. Look at the momentum TLJ had, and how much money it made in the first couple of weeks despite being a giant turd of a movie. By the time the backlash came, they had made out with big profits.

    Allowing users to take away from the buzz, or diminish the opening weekend take is a threat to this corporate strategy. RT looks to be funded with in-page movie advertisements, and the studios undoubtedly pushed to have this "are you going to see this movie" feature removed. It is possible the overwhelming TLJ backlash and skepticism of the upcoming film may have accomplished this change all by itself. There are literally billions at stake with this new star wars movie alone.

    #2992 12 months ago

    The purpose of Episodes VII-IX is to reboot the franchise. The presence of original trilogy actors was to give the film some continuity with the historical fans, and pass the torch from the old to new. To do so, the old generation must fade so the new can take their place. I think this is literally the only purpose of the new movies for Disney.

    Han did not have much of a purpose in the new movies other than to give us nostalgic feelings, then for him to die dramatically at the hands of his own son. Luke was in the movies to die also, to make the way for Rey. Leia will die next, I am taking bets that she will die in self sacrifice (because women are strong) while killing their son the cartoonish evil Kylo Ren. This will leave Rey as the center of the franchise, the new "Luke". But to pass the torch from Luke to Rey there must be some sort of connection, more than what we have seen in the movies so far. I expect force ghost Luke to be freed from his guilt and bitterness, and explain to Rey that he is her father. To confess how he screwed so many things up, became emotional and physical with a woman (perhaps a jedi student, explaining Rey's crazy force abilities because jedi don't normally hook up). He will say how his emotions led him to fail the new jedi order, and now she is the last of the jedi. This is Luke's confession, and the figurative confession of all straight white men who are to blame for everything wrong with the world today. Luke will be a metaphor for patriarchy and the "old" world of exclusivity and white privilege. It will be to Rey to help usher in a new force world of feminism, diversity, and a figurative rejection of the patriarchal past. Force ghost Luke will get in line, and support Rey in this like Old Ben did for Luke...

    With the original characters gone (Chewie and the droids stay, they do not age like human actors and don't need to be written out) Rey is given a clean slate for any future writer to use and continue the franchise. Finn can remain as her sidekick, heartbroken after Rose dies heroically (because women are strong).

    That's my guess...we know whatever they do will be politically correct, requires a passing of the torch from the original trilogy actors to the new, and needs to be done in a way that looks forward and not backwards.

    All IMO, of course.

    #2998 11 months ago
    Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

    Post credits shows Finn knocked up Rey, previewing they will have a multi-cultural child.

    I don't think Rey gets together with Finn, for the reason that this suggests a woman "needs" a man. Rey is a role model for young girls, and to suggest that the "happily ever after" must include a male figure, or pregnancy, suggests that she needs a man to be complete. This is antithetical to the feminist dogma that a woman does not need a man. I think the PC narrative may get turned down a little bit, but its not going away. I think they will continue to hint a a Rey-Finn relationship, but probably make it more like The Doctor and Companion type of relationship.

    But I agree with a lot of your ideas. Mara Jade would be a huge win, I had forgotten about her. I want to believe they will try and fix this mess, but they have boxed themselves in from a storytelling perspective. I feel like this last episode will be fairly predictable, because they just don't have many more story options left.

    If they ignore Rey's parentage, the Mary Sue makes no sense.

    If they ignore Luke's grumpy meltdown, then they assassinated their best character for no reason, and with no storyline.

    Leia is essential to the story, probably more than we think. When Carrie Fisher died, they could have ended Leia and written her out. Instead, we got force space flying and CGI...they are keeping her around for an important reason, otherwise the writers are just idiots.

    Kylo Ren and Rey probably have the big lightsaber fight where she becomes a "jedi" like luke did.

    And the cartoon space nazis fly around screaming how angry they are through it all.

    #3004 11 months ago
    Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

    That said, somebody at Lucasfilm should hire me. This shit is not difficult to come up with.

    I agree with you, and this is what confuses me so much.

    The greatest franchise in movie history, a multi-billion dollar empire, the legendary Disney Corporation and its legacy of IMAGINATION, and we get TLJ. Disconnected from the original Star Wars emotionally, relationaly, factually, culturally, logic problems, plot holes...how do you not put your best and brightest minds to work on it? By all measures Disney's board of directors should be genius level minds. The studio heads should be savvy, refined, accomplished, and some of the greatest minds in the industry. The writers must be accomplished and successful. I seriously thin amateurs are developing far superior ideas on internet message boards.

    I want to see the documentary "TLJ: The Making of a Movie and Unmaking of a Franchise"

    #3038 11 months ago

    Just out of curiosity, I went to see what Rotten Tomatoes has to say about TLJ this far after its release...

    Went to the RT and found the home page for TLJ:

    Critics Score: 91%
    Audience Score: 44%

    Top critics ratings - 12 out of 13 shown are fresh
    Top fan reviews - 3 out of 4 shown are positive (4/5 stars or better)

    3 out of the 4 displayed metrics were very positive, despite the massive backlash, constant declines in both critics and audience scores, and shockwaves sent through the industry. On opening weekend of TLJ, it had a 95% critic rating...I just don't trust the critics anymore. Their web pages are dependent on advertising money from the movie studios, it looks like a conflict of interest, and the opening week reviews are suspiciously positive. Captain Marvel is an 84% right now, and that seems to suggest a pretty good movie to me, not a deeply flawed one. Let's wait and see it I guess, but I have zero trust in the critics anymore. Critics used to nitpick movies to death, were almost jerks about it. But you wanted a critical perspective in a review, not studio fanboy propaganda. It used to be we were the judges of whether you thought a critic went too far in their criticism, now we are the judges that they are outright promoting bad movies. The internet has brought about a collapse in media quality and quantity across the board, I guess.

    It makes it hard to decide which movies to see when you can't trust the critics, and the media hype machine over-promotes every new blockbuster as the "film of the generation." I find am just avoiding all of the blockbusters in the theater altogether, watching the movies at home on a torrent, then if I like it I will pay for a copy and support it. I still want to support great art, and films can be that.

    1 month later
    #3240 10 months ago

    We want to like this, I want to like this, but we have been burned by TFA, TLJ, and frankly Solo was nothing special. KK has earned our distrust. We can be won back over, but they need to give us a really good reason. Marketing, previews, hyope, and favorable critic reviews won't sell us anymore. They need to do make something truly special, and that will be hard to connect with us since they have killed off beloved characters and burned bridges from the original trilogy. We will see, and while I'll be minded, I'm not optimistic.

    1 week later
    #3272 10 months ago
    Quoted from Ballsofsteel:

    watched the last jedi again for the 2nd time this weekend. it really is the worst star wars movie ever, episode 1 no longer holds the crown.

    I agree, and I include the Ewok Adventure and Caravan of Courage in my Star Wars cannon.

    3 weeks later
    #3338 9 months ago

    I know this is sightly off topic, but I think there will be mich debate as to which was worse; TLJ or GOT Finale. One ruined the greatest movie franchise in history, the other ruined perhaps the greatest tv series in history. I know GOT has had its flaws in the past, but no show is perfect. The production values were the best ever for a tv show, it had an epic story arc in a fantasy setting, diverse settings, memorable characters...don’t want to spoil the ending for anyone that hasn’t seen it...Are these the same people that will be taking over Star Wars?

    3 months later
    #3506 6 months ago

    I think this next movie is the make or break point for Disney and Star Wars. They may not have learned the lessons from TLJ, and it is possible that they are not the ones who are wrong, but we are...

    I was listening to a podcast with Seth Goden, and he was discussing how the world of media has changed. It used to be a very vertical structure, with three main tv networks, and very large audiences because there were only three options. In the 1970s, when Star Wars first came out, the top tv shows had ratings in the 30's. Today, they are closer to 10. Our attention is spread across hundreds of cable tv channels, internet websites, and video games. It is hard to bring a large audience's attention to one place. In the 1970's, an endorsement from a public figure on tv guaranteed success. Its not the same today, this vertical hierarchy of media has been dismantled, and it doesn't work top down anymore, but horizontally through smaller mediums like tv shows, bloggers, youtubers, influencers.

    Disney still tries to defy this new model of horizontal, and they have been successful. They own enough tv stations, movie studios, radio stations and newspapers, and enough influencers that they can build hype for a product in a vertical manner when many others cannot. They generate tremendous profits in the first couple of weeks of a movie release because of their hype machine, and do not need to rely on word of mouth, repeat viewings, favorable reviews. TLJ was not a good movie, and I think it showed a confidence, and perhaps arrogance by the studio. They did not put their efforts into writing, character development, continuity with the franchise, or even connecting with their established fanbase. Obviously, it just wasn't as important as we thought it should have been. But this is a business, its about profit, and making a great movie is not as important as managing the top-down vertical hype machine. I think this is what they did, and since they knew TLJ would make tons of money either way, they tried to fill it with SJW messages that they sincerely believe are positive, uplifting, and for our own good. They probably think they are doing the world good.

    SW9 is the make or break moment. They explained Solo away as "market oversaturation" and probably believe it. Toys r Us went under and destroyed all toy companies distribution chains and affected all toy manufacturer's profits. They can rationalize poor toy sales away that way. They will rely on the top-down hype machine to generate a billion dollar+ gross for SW9. The only way their eyes will be opened is if the movie fails financially. Will that happen? As long as they make another billion or so, they have no incentive to listen to the old fans like us, and the market will have spoken. They will be right, we will be wrong.

    #3511 6 months ago

    In my opinion, the emperor most likely comes back as a force ghost. Solid precedent for it, it’s what dead Jedi do. It’s also a way to keep Luke, Anakin, obi wan, and Yoda around for continuity to the original trilogy.

    And I don’t mean that this is an existential make or break moment for Disney and Star Wars, just that this is the moment of truth. TLJ was a disappointment, but Disney denied it as profitable. Solo bombed and they blamed over saturation. Toy sales tanked but with excuses. Galaxys edge has underperformed but with excuses. SW9 there are no more excuses and nowhere for the top brass to hide. JJ Abrams brought back to the role no reasonable director would want, with the worlds largest, most vocal, and currently critical fan base. If SW9 is a turd that makes 1.5B, then it really doesn’t matter what any of us think and they can do whatever they want. The shroud of the dark side will have fallen. Into exile we must go.

    #3513 5 months ago

    I completely agree, I don’t like force ghost playing a major role either, but I have stopped thinking Disney and Kennedy care at all about what we think. I’m not sure who the target audience is anymore.

    1 week later
    #3555 5 months ago
    Quoted from Tomahawkjim:

    Darth Maul should have been the bad guy throughout the first three movies. He should have come back with a vengeance in Episode 2. Obi Wan would have been distracted by his personal rivalry with Maul & that is why he didn't notice Anakin slipping towards the dark side. In my mind, I like the think about Ep1, Ep2, & Ep3 with Maul as the big baddie & Ep7, Ep8, Ep9 with Thrawn as the big baddie.

    I like this...

    1 month later
    #3678 3 months ago
    Quoted from rai:

    You haters gonna hate but episode 9 will break all kinds of records.
    [quoted image]

    I don't know anyone calling for an organized boycott, but maybe they are out there. I just know a lot of disappointed fans that have lost faith in Disney for some time now. There is a terrible irony that the company that transformed modern media and the world through sheer "imagination" should have resorted to buying existing franchises and settling for reboots, sequels, or repackaging the same old material over and over.

    The test for the new Star Wars movie will be how much money it earns after it has been out for a month. Does anyone go to see it more than once? Or tell their friends they need to go see it? I am expecting another 1.5 billion dollar flash in the pan. If its something good, it should double that. Star Wars is the biggest franchise in movie history with the biggest and most devoted fanbase ever. If they give us something good, people will go see it at midnight, and over and over. We can hope, but Walt is dead in every way he can be, IMO.

    1 month later
    #4302 59 days ago

    RT is owned by Fandango. The current president of Fandango is Paul Yanover, a former executive Vice President and (I believe) board member of Disney.

    It’s getting difficult what to believe in the media anymore.

    #4321 58 days ago

    I think there are a lot of games being played at the theaters. Our local theater at the shopping mall has 42 showings times between all of the screens. 42 showings. Last weekend on Friday, 30 of the 42 showings were reserved for TROS. Jumanji was in its second week, and was reduced to 3 showings. Frozen II has been a blockbuster, reduced to 4 showings. Jumanji and Frozen II sold out all showings. I can't imagine the theater would have wanted to voluntarily restrict Jumanji and Frozen II sales to push ROTS so hard.

    I wonder how many people watched TROS this weekend because there was nothing else showing?

    1 week later
    #4417 49 days ago


    Kathleen Kennedy...intentionally...disrespecting her product's own fan base. Star Wars was worth $4 billion for one reason; the existing, multi-generational, perdominantly male fan base and their willingness to spend money to support the franchise they love. There is plenty of room for greater inclusivity, but how can you survive in any industry if this is how you feel about and act towards your customers?

    You can't make this stuff up. Someone's gonna write a book about this one day.

    1 month later
    #4632 18 days ago
    Quoted from wesman:

    I was speaking in generalities for the entire tone of the OT series. He at least wrote the story, and I'd wager he definitely had input on dialog. The writing style is pretty consistent throughout that series.

    According to wikipedia, Lucas had significant creative input regarding The Empire Strikes Back.

    "Lucas conceived Star Wars as a single film but split it into parts after his drafts became too long. Following the success of Star Wars, Lucas hired Brackett to write the sequel; after Brackett's death in 1978, he outlined the Star Wars saga as a whole and developed the script himself before hiring Kasdan. Lucas chose not to direct due to his obligations at Industrial Light & Magic and handling the financing, and passed the duty to Kershner, his former professor."

    "With no writer available, Lucas had to write the next draft himself. It was this draft in which Lucas first made use of the "Episode" numbering for the films; The Empire Strikes Back became Episode II.[40] His disappointment with the first draft probably made Lucas consider different directions in which to take the story.[41] He made use of a new plot twist: Darth Vader claims to be Luke's father. According to Lucas, he found this draft enjoyable to write, as opposed to the yearlong struggles writing the first film, and quickly wrote two more drafts,[42] all in April 1978.[43]"


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