(Topic ID: 205155)

*SPOILERS* -TROS* Star Wars: TLJ is really bad & other Star Wars/Disney/Marvel

By InfiniteLives

6 years ago


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  • Latest reply 4 days ago by gdonovan
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    Topic poll

    “Star Wars: The Last Jedi was...”

    • garbage, the worst of the main films 243 votes
      34%
    • decent, better than the prequels 251 votes
      35%
    • really good, on par with the originals 80 votes
      11%
    • great! one of the best 80 votes
      11%
    • who cares, star wars sucks 55 votes
      8%

    (709 votes)

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    Post #2827 Analysis worth watching. Posted by gdonovan (5 years ago)

    Post #3520 Path to get Disney + discounted. Thanks @fosaisu Posted by fosaisu (4 years ago)


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    #258 6 years ago

    I can understand how people don't like things, but I'm struggling to understand why this movie is drawing so much anger. I think a big part of it is that Johnson moved the characters to be a bit more real than idealized or caricature men and women. Luke is much more human this go around, and he's dealt with some stuff that would break just about anybody. It's not easy to watch for a generation's favorite hero.

    #263 6 years ago
    Quoted from LesManley:

    What I can't understand is taking a 2 year cliffhanger handing off the lightsaber, dramatic music, tension in the air, what will Luke do? Casually toss it over his shoulder like a piece of trash of course. Like anyone would do that with their father's lightsaber that they thought was lost and hadn't seen in years even...if they had no interest in being a Jedi anymore. I literally thought that was part of an outtake gag reel.

    He paired it with a pretty firm "go away." He was obviously trying to be as dismissive and clear as possible. He doesn't care about the Jedi and he doesn't care about the past anymore.

    Quoted from LesManley:

    Who are Rey's parents? Big mystery...nope they were just junkers, no names...literally, nothing important, she is just super powerful and the lightsaber calls to her for no particular reason.

    Why does parentage matter? We never knew Yoda's parents. We never knew Obi Wan's parents. There's no established necessity for special bloodlines in Star Wars beyond the Skywalkers, which were the bloodline that were tasked to bring balance to the Force. I think destroying the Jedi Order is actually what will ultimately bring balance to the Force. The Jedi were too rigid and it made them flawed. They were not in balance at all. Rey not coming from any special bloodline is perfect. The Force is in and around everyone and everything.

    Quoted from LesManley:

    Snoke is an all powerful evil leader who groomed Kylo to be evil. Who is he, where did he come from, how did he get powerful, how did he find Kylo, how did he come to lead the first order, why did he hate Luke Skywalker and the Jedi so much? After 2 years...a couple of answers would have been nice, but no, not important just ignore all that. Just cut him in half and move on.

    Snoke was a red herring. He thought he had a Vader in the making, and he was using that to solidify his grip on the galaxy. The problem is, Kylo wasn't going to be anybody's attack dog. He saw greater for himself. Rey saw that Kylo would not kneel before Snoke, but she didn't realize it was because he wanted to be Snoke. Kylo Ren is the big bad guy in this trilogy. He has no light in him and he's the one we should all fear. Snoke is insignificant. And it wasn't just the audience that was fooled, it was the entire Resistance too. They thought they should fear Snoke and try to save Kylo Ren. Kylo isn't redeemable. He's gone.

    Quoted from LesManley:

    My main beef is the the blatant and total disregard for everything established in the Episode VII that makes me feel the way I do, plus all the non-stop out of place comedy.

    I don't think they disregarded anything, but rather built on things in a way that we just couldn't see coming. With The Force Awakens being so similar to the original trilogy, everybody thought we were in for a similar ride. With J.J. Abrams doing Episode 9, and Episode 8 being so collaborative, I'm pretty darn sure that the big story beats were agreed upon by all those who have an important hand in the series. Misplaced humor is a staple in Star Wars. Go back and watch...all 8 episodes have it.

    And flying Leia? I don't get why that's so strange. She just Force pulled on the ship. She probably spent a grand total of 10 seconds out in space. She was stunned by the blast, pulled herself back in, and was saved. Jedi often propel or throw themselves with the Force. That wasn't really out of line for what we've seen from Force users.

    Quoted from Darscot:

    Rey had literally hours with Luke, the whole thing was pointless. Remember when Ben had to convince Yoda because Luke was too old. Now we are reduced to well we got some text books and a couple of hours. It was so silly. Is it learn to be Jedi for dummies

    Rey spent days with Luke. She learned the most important thing though: balance in the Force is what she needs, not a restrictive Jedi Order. Yoda flat out tells Luke this.

    ------

    I understand not liking a movie, but the complaints that this was so out of line for a Star Wars doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm not seeing what's so wrong with the story or tonally incorrect.

    -5
    #267 6 years ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Look up the movie or book term "Mary Sue"

    I'm well aware of what a Mary Sue is. Rey is not a Mary Sue. She's been on her own since she was a child, collecting junk, fixing stuff, training, and adapting. Her experience with the Force started at a much younger age than it did for Luke. She talks about how it's always been there. She's highly intelligent. Rey didn't grow up with parent figures like Luke did, so it's far more reasonable that she has a good more figured out about life than he did. She may never become as powerful in the Force as Luke, or she might surpass him. Who knows? But does it really matter? But for sure, Rey's arc is far more level than Luke's. His is very steep and quick.

    People tend to forget that Luke went from farmboy to ace starfighter pilot right quick with only a few short lessons on the Force. Rey has yet to do anything half as impressive as Luke did before he was fully trained. The biggest thing Rey did was defeat Kylo Ren in a fight when Kylo had already been shot with a blaster and was bleeding out all over the place. That's not really the most incredible achievement.

    #269 6 years ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Star Wars came at time when cinema was rather dreary and there were very few optimistic movies out. Lucas got lucky on his subject choice, John Williams awesome score, some friends helping him edit the movie and timing so I think it gripped the public imagination more than usual.

    I don't think so. If it was a product of good timing, it wouldn't be so timeless. Lucas was a legit genius in his prime. Problem is, he got enamored with technology and started building stories around what he could show, not so much what he could tell. The core story of the prequels is actually pretty decent, but the execution is awful.

    #273 6 years ago

    By the way, Luke's final act was downright boss. That was maybe the best Force "trick" we've ever seen. He stalled the First Order, saved the Resistance, showed Kylo Ren that he's still insignificant compared to Luke, and spread the Skywalker legend even more and to a new generation. It was beautiful watching him fade away, but it legit saddened me. My favorite fictional character of all time...gone. At least he went out in spectacular fashion.

    #295 6 years ago

    I also don't think that Luke's Force trick killed him. He was exhausted afterwards, but it didn't kill him. He went into the Force like Yoda did. Luke was done with his mission.

    Quoted from flynnibus:

    Negative Ghostrider

    Luke (and Anakin) were both natural pilots due to their force sensitivity. It's why Anakin was the only human capable of pod racing. In EPIV, Luke is practicing and training with his fellow friends to go join the resistance. Remember during the briefing on attacking the death star, people think the objective is impossible, but Luke downplays it as feasible given what they practice back at home?

    Luke is shown as a raw pilot talent in EPIV... and in the finish of EPIV its shown how the force can be used to make you perform better. And in EPI, its explained further how Anakin can do these things no other human can.... closing the circle explaining Luke's natural prowess.

    Why shouldn't this apply to Rey? She has been explained as having massive raw power. Why should it only apply to the Skywalkers?

    #302 6 years ago
    Quoted from racer_x:

    You mean aside from when Kylo did the exact same thing to visit Rey when he got tired of Force texting?

    Kylo didn't do that. That was Snoke. Snoke clearly admitted to connecting their minds through the Force. And again, this isn't really something new in Star Wars. Jedi reach out and speak to/see each other all the time. Leia saw Luke on Bespin, and she was totally untrained and unaware of her powers at that point. Criticism is fine, guys, but let's at least not throw out all context.

    Quoted from gdonovan:

    He would have shot Rylo's ass, son or no son. Totally out of character.

    No way. Han was a scoundrel, but had a huge soft spot in him. He came back to save Luke at the Death Star and risked his butt to do so. He did it again on Hoth. There's no way he would just shoot his own child.

    EVERYBODY underestimated how far gone Kylo Ren was, except for Luke. Han thought he could turn him. Rey thought she could turn him. Luke understood, but he was unable to just kill him. Leia also understands, it seems.

    -1
    #318 6 years ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    They could not penetrate because they were "out of range." Who knew space lasers had a range that they just stopped working in the vacuum of space?

    Lasers degrade in intensity over distance, even in a vacuum, especially larger diameter beams. We've seen this with the lasers we fire at mirrors on the moon to measure things.

    They couldn't send smaller ships out once a distance had been created. They would never make it without getting picked off by the cruiser's own laser turrets. The only option the First Order had was to pursue and wait for either another light speed jump or for them to run out of fuel cruising. It was the safest plan. It worked too, but Kylo screwed it up by letting his anger stop the advance on the base to face Luke.

    #319 6 years ago
    Quoted from jwilson:

    Maybe "light speed" only works for very long distances. It certainly seems really fast to cross the galaxy in hours.

    Don't the use a combo of light speed and hyperspace in Star Wars? I think they get up to light speed and then enter hyperspace, but I might have that wrong. That could make short jumps problematic.

    #356 6 years ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Lasers that are fired through and have to return through Earths atmosphere, something that isn't happening here.

    Even space to space lasers see diffraction. It's been measured and reported. And again, bigger beams have bigger intensity loss.

    Edit: And what sci fi movie DOESN'T have a "firing range" for their weapons? Based on your hangup, why did the Death Star have to move to such close distances to a planet? Why not just fire it off from the edge of the system? There are concessions and suspensions in reality all over the place with sci fi. Star Wars has had a "firing range" consideration from the beginning.

    #358 6 years ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    I gotta ask...has it ever been established that these things are all in fact lasers as we know them here on Earth? Could they be some kind of SPACE BLASTERS, or ion beams, or disrupter shrouds, or just some other kind of Lucasian jibberish with different properties and limitations? Is part of all of this no-funism and gotcha criticism about everything in the movies a result of trying to transpose the surly limitations presented by our own Earthly realities on to a galaxy far, far away?
    Asking for a friend.

    Exactly. Also, Lando orders the fleet to move into point blank range against Star Destroyers in Return of the Jedi, so distances obviously matter in Star Wars.

    #360 6 years ago

    I get why people don't like it, but I'm still just confused over the amount of anger. Over time, this one will probably settle in the upper half of Star Wars films once it finds its place is the full arc of this trilogy and within the rest of the movies.

    It's also funny how much opinions vary on different forums. Over on Slaent, which is mostly a sports/video game forum, it's probably 95% loved it to 5% meh. Only one or two people actually hating on it. Discussion is very different there too. People are looking at what the movie is really trying to say about Star Wars and its characters.

    #382 6 years ago
    Quoted from irobot:

    I don't think it's fake. I think it's all too real.
    when people obsess over a sci-fi movie, it kind of takes on a "never held hands with an actual woman" quality

    Well, CinemaScore has it at an A (exit polling for movies, essentially). So people coming out of theaters are happy, but online there's a riot. I think it's definitely a smaller outrage that looks much bigger than it is.

    #385 6 years ago

    I don't disagree, but I've got extra time today. Hah.

    #399 6 years ago

    They'll probably do a little time skip. Rey needs a little time to discover her place a bit more. The Resistance was said to have a lot of support, but it was very scattered. I'm guessing that reports of Luke showing up will rally a lot of people back to arms and they'll begin to more formally organize or at least get the financial backing they need to arm up.

    #409 6 years ago

    I'm guessing that Kylo sensed Luke's death, but he knows it's not the end of Luke's presence in his life. Luke already finished everything he needed to do. He reignited the spark of rebellion, he saved the Resistance leadership (what's left of it, anyway), he instilled the only lessons Rey needed about the Force (not the Jedi), and he found peace within himself. Luke finished his mission.

    #438 6 years ago
    Quoted from jesster64:

    I might as well pile on. Leia flying through space was one of the worst scenes i've ever seen. No reason to put those chickens with big eyes in the movie except to sell toys. Chewie almost eating one except the one had tears in its eyes almost made me throw up. I guess when they were on the falcon, it was a tribute to star trek tribbles. Snoke not sensing ren manipulating the saber, yet he senses everything else. Why did the planet have red salty watery soil? Harrison Ford makes the series. He makes the jokes. Without him it falls flat. Having to visit a casino for a codebreaker, made no sense whatsoever. The fleets being pursued , yet you are told to go find a codebreaker, its your only chance. So they didn't just destroy the lead ship because they would switch the tracker to another ship, yet disabling the tracker gave them a whole 6 minutes to escape. Tracker looked like a flux capaciter. Didn't appreciate the whole animal cruelty subplot, yes, all humans are evil. They introduce new character and she is immediatley recruited to go on dangerous mission. Captain phatasm is just a reason for an action figure. Apparently BB can do everything, steal a ship, pilot a walker, etc.. Even mark hamill hated the idea luke gave up on everybody. Whats with the evil dark hole, nothing really came of that.Thats all for now off the top of my head and it feels good to vent.
    I did like the luke projecting himself twist. Also the kid at the end used the force to grab a broom, didn't he, so a future jedi. I like kylo, at least character development there.

    Leia flying is typical Jedi crap. I don't get why it's an issue. She didn't fly, she just force pulled herself back to the ship. They shot it weird though, so it felt a little funny, but that's not really an odd thing to see a force user do.

    The porgs are pretty standard Star Wars. They've always had little throwaway creatures and droids around.

    Red salty soil? That's going to bug you? I can find some of that literally 5 miles from myself right now. What another strange thing to get bothered by.

    The entire casino plan failed. I'm not sure if you noticed that or not. That was the point. The plan didn't work, and staying on the ship would have been better. I don't know why it's weird that some hotshot code breaker would be at a casino though. He could have been anywhere, but what's so out of line with a casino?

    The tracker stuff felt a bit contrived as far as a single ship tracking at a time. The disable and jump plan is fine though. I don't know how they came up that time window. Since they mention hyperspace tracking in Rogue One as a research project, it's reasonable to have it as a plot point here.

    Captain "Phatasm" probably should have had more screen time, but her appearance would have been way cooler if they didn't spoil that she was in the film through marketing. Everybody (in the film) assumed she was dead, but knowing for sure that she was alive made it feel weak for the audience. It's Phasma, by the way.

    BB-8 being a "do all" is pretty similar to R2-D2. He hacked/repaired/zapped stuff all through the first trilogy. That's what these droids do.

    The "evil dark hole" is the same sort of thing that Luke walked into on Dagobah in the Empire Strikes Back. That wasn't a new concept for Star Wars either.

    ----

    If people are going to complain about all these things that don't make sense, maybe limit those things to stuff that aren't already established in the Star Wars universe. There is plenty to not like, but be reasonable in the claims about what doesn't make sense for the franchise.

    There are real imperfections and issues, sure. Finn's and Rose's mission should have happened. It was a desperate act, and I'm fine with it failing, but they could have trimmed that down to happen on screen in half the amount of time it took. Snoke's dying the way he did was fine, but it shouldn't have been so blatantly telegraphed with the slowly turning lightsaber and the heavy-handed dialog leading up to it. Rey should probably have been given a few more days of training and instruction time, but they painted themselves into a corner with the running out of gas plot. She couldn't be on the island for much longer than she was.

    I would have changed the out of gas problem to be something different. Not being able to break away and not jump to lightspeed is fine. But rather than gas being a problem, gravity well generators on Snoke's ship would have been better. Breaking in to try to disable them would have still been a good reason to search for the code breaker. Make the shields eventually failing be the issue, not gas. "We can keep enough distance to minimize the effect of their weapons, but the shields will eventually fail" would feel better than "there's no Chevron out here."

    I would have handled Yoda's appearance a bit different too. Rather than an angry Luke heading to the tree, I would have had a conflicted Luke approaching it, seeing if there's anything he might have missed. As he got close, the tree was already burning, with a couple of those keepers standing by watching. A shocked Luke asks them what they've done, and Yoda steps out of the flame and goes on about how the Jedi Order is no longer needed and how Rey has already been taught what she needs and so on. It would have played into Luke's decision to reconnect to the force a bit better.

    The actual movie was really good, but some of the handling was rough, I agree. I just don't see why people are feeling like everything was so out of line.

    -5
    #448 6 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    Now I know why you were so let down by Stern SW.

    Because it's bad pinball. The code is a wreck.

    40x multipliers...terrible idea.

    -1
    #458 6 years ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    It really is. Very unique and gives the game a completely different feel. Plus you can play it numerous different ways with several different approaches so it has lasting power. Anyone caught up about a 40x multiplier needs to try to get it that high and see just how easy it is to accomplish.

    It's not deep code. It's just a ton of concurrent things running at once. It's just messy. It's totally unfit for the layout too. Total disconnect between physical and software design. Such a miss for the license.

    #460 6 years ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    kinda like TLJ movie
    bam!
    haha
    sorry had to do it

    Haha. Fair shot. But I shot first, so you're Greedo.

    #465 6 years ago
    Quoted from PanzerFreak:

    Sounds like you haven't played the game or at least not enough. You can completely turn off mode stacking if you want and there's several other options for it. Tournament mode turns off stacking by default.
    The games main modes are broken up into 4 sections, 3 for each planet plus a mini wizard mode for each planet. Each planet has its own insert on the playfield to select a mode for that planet. That's very straightforward.

    I've played it a ton. I've played pros, premiums, and even an LE. I don't like it. I'm not sure if I'm playing pinball or Pop'n Music at times with that stupid action button. Way overused. On the premium/LE level, the fork ramp is a clunker. People will tell you that you need to "dial it in," well, every one I play has issues. Same with the hyperloop.

    I've played it a lot. I have been to the end of the code more than once. There are neat things buried in the stacks on stacks of crap, but they're not worth the effort. Why they would make a game that has more things going on than the game can properly indicate on the playfield is beyond me. It feels like overcompensation for the basic layout.

    The game isn't hard to understand nor is it hard to play. It's just not fun to play.

    #467 6 years ago
    Quoted from jgentry:

    Meh, your misery is my fun. Not sure how you are getting to the wizard mode if the fork ramps do not work right though

    Eventually you get it done. You can't shoot it too cleanly, or it will reject. You can't hit it too softly, or it will roll right back down. You kinda have to slop it in with speed. It's dumb. It's also dumb hitting the backside of the forks. Really bad way to handle entrance to the loop.

    #469 6 years ago

    Yeah, let's discuss good things.

    #471 6 years ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    how did you feel about the maz kanata scene?

    Not my favorite. Contacting her is fine, but I didn't like the whole "I'm in a fight" aspect of it. She's obviously well connected to all sorts of people who can and will help the Resistance, so I don't mind it being her they reached out to.

    #475 6 years ago
    Quoted from Astropin:

    The ship isn't a planet...the interior gravitational force doesn't apply to objects outside of the ship so no "escape velocity" would be required. The "simulated" 1-G (or whatever the standard is in the Star Wars universe) inside the ship does not act on other objects in space as if it had the full gravity of a planet.
    So that simulated force is pulling down on the bombs. Once released (if the doors are open) they fall right out of the ship. Once out they are no longer affected by the ship but they do have a velocity and a direction...which they would then proceed on until they hit something...or come across another strong gravitational field.

    TIE Bombers existed in the original trilogy. Again, it's another complaint about something that wasn't new to the series.

    #497 6 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    No its not, ur a Star Wars geek and theres no world under the glass, come on Jar just admit it nothing wrong with that but to blame the code and the multipliers, shame on you sir. I hope you give it another chance becasue as a fellow fan of the franchise I think ur missing out, then again I don't really care.

    You care enough to follow my opinion to every freaking thread...

    I have never been a "world under glass" guy. That's new blood collector nonsense. If a game plays well, I'll play it. If it desktop) doesn't, there are plenty more that do. I can't wait until the world under glass fascination dorks burn out with their current flavor of the month activity and go back to their former hobbies.

    #509 6 years ago
    Quoted from Hazoff:

    Wow you really hold urself in high regard don't you, every thread? I don't care what you do, but if a SW fan can't see the greatness in that game then there has to be other issues, if you just simply hate it then fine and I'll refrain from commenting on anything you post from this time forward. Good day sir.

    You're harder to have a conversation with than a roll of wallpaper.

    #525 6 years ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    Do the Knights of Ren exist in this story anymore?

    I saw something last night that said that the Knights of Ren were turned by Snoke and they made up his Elite Guard. Don't know if that was real or not.

    #529 6 years ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    hmm, I would think they were force users tho (Luke saying Ben took some students with him, did they have light sabres in Reys flashback?), and the elite guard didnt show any force moves or light sabres...
    but..
    Kylo Ren and Rey did not use any force moves in that fight either. Would be a bummer if they killed them off too.
    I wonder what Levi thinks? He has added some riveting dialog to this conversation, I wonder if we can get some more great content from him.

    Yeah, the thing I saw said that Kylo took some students to form the Knights of Ren. They all fell in line with Snoke, Kylo Ren included. Kylo, being the standout among them was essentially poised to be the next Vader and the rest were part of the guard duty for Snoke. I don't understand why no force abilities were used there aside from maybe they were very untrained. The fight was light on force use from Rey and Kylo too. I thought that stood out as being weird.

    #537 6 years ago
    Quoted from Rando:

    I don't get the love for Phasma, was she a major player in the EU or something? The buildup to her pre Ep 7 was big, then she was lame. The build up for her pre Ep 8 was big, and she had more or a role, but again lame. I don't think it's Disney that's really pushing her though, it's seems to be fans, and I can't figure out why.

    Read a plot summary of Star Wars: Phasma. She's a psychopath and unbelievably dangerous. She's also extremely smart. You have to do independent reading away from the movies to really know any of that though.

    #553 6 years ago
    Quoted from fosaisu:

    Yeah I've read this "only two Sith at a time" nonsense online too. But it doesn't seem to align with what they're doing with the movies now, unless we're meant to believe that Snoke only took to the Force after the Emperor died? Clearly he's another Dark Side practitioner who was doing something or other while the Emperor was in power. Or maybe the Galaxy spontaneously generates a new, pre-wizened Sith Lord whenever one croaks to maintain balance in the Force?

    I think they've backed away from that a fair bit. It was kinda dumb to begin with.

    #559 6 years ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    i think that you can be using the dark side of the force and not be classified as a sith.
    i mean you have Count Dooku, Darth Sidious and Darth Maul all around at the same time. Dooku was a pupil of Yoda and Maul was trained under Sidious presumably. Unless they glossed over when Dooku converted to the dark side right after maul died... they had more than 2 in the prequels.

    The prequels messed up the lore a bit. Midichlorians and the like. I think they're good stories, but terribly executed and they painted a few things into corners.

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