(Topic ID: 205155)

*SPOILERS* -TROS* Star Wars: TLJ is really bad & other Star Wars/Disney/Marvel

By InfiniteLives

2 years ago

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    Topic poll

    “Star Wars: The Last Jedi was...”

    • garbage, the worst of the main films 209 votes
    • decent, better than the prequels 238 votes
    • really good, on par with the originals 78 votes
    • great! one of the best 72 votes
    • who cares, star wars sucks 42 votes

    (639 votes)

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    Topic index (key posts)

    3 key posts have been marked in this topic

    Post #2827 Analysis worth watching. Posted by gdonovan (1 year ago)

    Post #3520 Path to get Disney + discounted. Thanks @fosaisu Posted by fosaisu (5 months ago)

    Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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    #1677 1 year ago

    Well I'm in the minority, but I do see a trend. I've never been a fan of Star Wars as I never saw the movies when they came out in theaters as a kid. At some point I watched them, can't remember when, but definitely not in theaters. I didn't have a dislike for them either, just never really cared. Went with the family to see TFA - everyone, including myself, liked it. Saw R1 as well - again family pretty much agreed it was OK, but a bit boring and dragging through the first 3/4. Saw TLJ on opening night in a full theater with the family, really enjoyed it as a movie. Theater applauded at the end, and generally the theater audience was very engaged the entire time, with clapping during various scenes and a gasp at the end when it was revealed Luke wasn't really there. Although I enjoyed TLJ, my main gripes were with Snoke being killed so quickly, the Luke breastfeeding scene, and Kylo just not giving off that big-bad evil vibe like Vader. And I didn't know where the story was going for the next part. But I thought that the movie itself was well-paced and kept the interest high, and was enjoyable.

    Personally I never understood the gripe about Rey's parents - didn't Vader originally lie to Luke about his parents, saying they were nothing as well, before he found out the truth? Kylo telling Rey that seems like the exact same thing, and I don't see why everyone takes that at face value when it seems like a play just like what happened in the original. I don't see why the next part couldn't make Rey's parents part of the Skywalker lineage.

    1 month later
    #1943 1 year ago

    Saw Solo last night, but realize I'm in the minority when it comes to SW movies as a very casual fan. Really didn't enjoy the first 3/4, was just not interesting to me at all despite a lot of action. I think it needed some more humor as well - many of the attempts just seemed flat. However, my family enjoyed it and the audience generally clapped at the end. There was a good deal of fan service in the movie, but again as a casual SW fan, doesn't really appeal to me that much.

    Without giving anything away, I'm wondering if I'm the only person that seemed to think that a sequence in the last 1/4 of the movie on the MF struck me as eerily similar to a sequence near the end of Star Trek VI.

    1 week later
    #2041 1 year ago

    I think the only way IX can be saved is if they find very creative ways to retcon what Rian did, which I do think is possible. They'd have to bring Luke back (he disappeared, didn't appear as a force ghost, so they could come up with something here), and make it so Snoke ties into Palpatine and ends up just his physical body is destroyed and reemerges even stronger (can add to mythos here). And then Rey will have to be the daughter of a major force character (easily done since they could say Kylo was trying to deceive her about her real parents). JJ did say early on that his interpretation of Star Wars 1-9 is that it's "all about family", which Rian promptly destroyed that notion purposefully. If JJ still believes that, it's possible he basically re-does everything and ties it in.

    But it's a tall task to do in one movie. With two movies it would be a lot easier to retcon what Rian did and make a stronger arc, but with one .... maybe. It'll have to be pretty long.

    1 week later
    #2070 1 year ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Heard through the grapevine today:
    Rumor: Kathleen Kenedy has been fired from creative control of the Star Wars property by Disney.
    Will try and follow up on it and update.

    This has been reported quite a few times during the last few weeks from a number of sources. The last article from a decent source was about 1-2 weeks ago that stated she was negotiating her golden parachute and would leave by fall.

    2 months later
    #2528 1 year ago
    Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

    Yeah nothing is going to fix the inherent flaws (poor core story, weak characters, ignoring fan expectations, etc) that are part of this new trilogy. It's all rotten to the core. The fan backlash is real & Disney knows it.
    Hence JJ will do whatever it takes to win them back with Episode 9. I think that's the main focus now. Win back the fans & save the franchise. That's why you're hearing Vader, The Emperor, Yoda, Obiwan, Luke, Anakin, The Hutts, Tattooine, Lando are all in the next movie. I bet they even get Harrison Ford to do a super secret flashback scene that explains (gasp) Rey's famous lineage. Fan service to the extreme, trying to right so many wrongs. Good luck with that.

    While it won't satisfy everyone, I do think it's possible to end it on a positive note, but they'd have to seriously consider making it Star Wars 9 and Star Wars 10. I don't think there's a way you do it in one movie, and I think making a single 3 hour movie would be a huge gamble. Unfortunately I think the only way to fix it is to really ignore almost all of TLJ entirely, save for a few things. Unfortunately there's no way to retcon such things as Luke thinking about killing one of his students.

    2 weeks later
    #2578 1 year ago
    Quoted from CaptainNeo:

    exactly right. My exact same thoughts on the James Gunn situation. Make some off color jokes 10 years ago and everyone turns their back on you? Get fawked, is the way I look at it.

    I think just about everyone who actually read the " off color jokes" agrees that they are, at the very least, troubling and offensive. I mean - they aren't even jokes I don't think *anyone* would actually laugh at. And most wouldn't even say they are jokes if you read them - there's no punchline, just random comments about pedophilia, rape, and even a link to a video about preteen girls touching themselves. I think one thing everyone can agree on - there's no way this guy would ever be allowed alone with your children if you were given these tweets - even if it was 50 years ago. Take away the fact he was a famous director, and I think he'd be fired from just about any job if they came across his prior tweets. And no parent would ever let anyone who said those things near their children. It was a very tough position for Disney to be in.

    1 month later
    #2664 1 year ago
    Quoted from Jason43:

    Luke rotj: willing to die to save his father from the dark side
    Luke tlj: maybe senses a little dark side in his nephew, ready to cut him the fuck in half while he sleeps

    Agreed - this is the biggest inconsistency of them all. I can potentially see Luke going hermit - I mean, ALL the other Jedi Masters, once great heroic warriors, ended up doing the exact same thing. Why not him? I don't see that as inconsistent at all.

    But sensing darkness in his nephew and getting an urge to kill him in his sleep? That makes no sense whatsoever and is way off-character considering the events of the original. In a way they ruined Kylo as well with this as well as it doesn't make him seem as evil / dark anymore. Turn the tables - imagine if Yoda, who sensed darkness in Luke as well, almost killed Luke in his sleep? That would've been a really different dynamic.

    3 months later
    #2923 11 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    There is several sources who state merchandise is off, hell The Force Awakens merchandise can STILL be found in stores.

    A New Hope merchandise can still be found in stores as well. Not exactly a reliable indicator.

    #2928 11 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    From 1977?

    My point was that just because it says The Force Awakens, doesn't mean that it's actually stock from when the movie came out. Just like A New Hope figures that you see in stores aren't from 1977. Hasbro is still manufacturing Force Awakens figures / toys / etc.

    1 week later
    #2965 11 months ago
    Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

    Zack Levi? What terrible casting. That's a character that any kid would love (Superman meets the movie Big), but I've got very little faith the film will be any good.

    I disagree about Zack - I really can't think of another actor that I think could better play a kid in an adult's (superhero) body. That's a tough role, and while I was initially skeptical with the announcement - after seeing the trailers it appears he is doing a decent job.

    #2967 11 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Rotten Tomatoes does away with "are you going to see this movie" poll for some reason. [quoted image][quoted image]

    Pretty huge overreaction to this online. So they removed the option of people selecting that they don't want to see a movie. Which is about as informative as a poll asking people if they don't want broccoli for dinner. They can still tally the amount of people that DO want to see a movie, which pretty much eliminates troll votes altogether. And then you can have comparisons of those numbers across different movies to gauge interest, which is a much better indicator anyway (ie 20 million people want to see Movie X, compared to only 1 million want to see Movie Y).

    1 week later
    #3030 10 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    The French website Avoir Alire has posted their Captain Marvel review giving it one out of five stars noting (translated via Bing), "A monolithic heroine whose feminist struggle seems to be the only reason to exist. The result, without emotion, is closer to the silliness of a shortcut in time than a traditional Avenger."
    The review (again translated) goes on to mention how the titular character makes it clear she doesn't need the help of men, with Brie Larson's acting said to be cold and compared to that of an android. It's said Larson doesn't manage the slightest of an iconic pose, and that she is not sexy in the costume: "since the game of seduction is sexist and therefore irrelevant in the film."
    It's also said Captain Marvel's big "Superman" moment when she first flies is lacking and that Brie Larson and her powers "leave us totally cold. "The reviewer goes on to note that the film is heavily influenced by "societal transition" which first showed up in Hollywood, including scandals such as the Harvey Weinstein affair. "Everything is written to signify the need for emancipation of the woman in a patriarchal world," the Captain Marvel review states.
    The super powers of Captain Marvel are going to make talk. A lot. At first she is very powerful. In the end, she is simply ... invincible? Not a scratch in two hours of time. This poses many questions.
    Called it.

    It's a bit of a stretch to have to go to France to have a bad review - I've read about a dozen reviews today, all of which were either very positive, or generally positive.

    #3040 10 months ago
    Quoted from tl54hill:

    Just out of curiosity, I went to see what Rotten Tomatoes has to say about TLJ this far after its release...
    Went to the RT and found the home page for TLJ:
    Critics Score: 91%
    Audience Score: 44%
    Top critics ratings - 12 out of 13 shown are fresh
    Top fan reviews - 3 out of 4 shown are positive (4/5 stars or better)
    3 out of the 4 displayed metrics were very positive, despite the massive backlash, constant declines in both critics and audience scores, and shockwaves sent through the industry. On opening weekend of TLJ, it had a 95% critic rating...I just don't trust the critics anymore. Their web pages are dependent on advertising money from the movie studios, it looks like a conflict of interest, and the opening week reviews are suspiciously positive. Captain Marvel is an 84% right now, and that seems to suggest a pretty good movie to me, not a deeply flawed one. Let's wait and see it I guess, but I have zero trust in the critics anymore. Critics used to nitpick movies to death, were almost jerks about it. But you wanted a critical perspective in a review, not studio fanboy propaganda. It used to be we were the judges of whether you thought a critic went too far in their criticism, now we are the judges that they are outright promoting bad movies. The internet has brought about a collapse in media quality and quantity across the board, I guess.
    It makes it hard to decide which movies to see when you can't trust the critics, and the media hype machine over-promotes every new blockbuster as the "film of the generation." I find am just avoiding all of the blockbusters in the theater altogether, watching the movies at home on a torrent, then if I like it I will pay for a copy and support it. I still want to support great art, and films can be that.

    I personally think it's a bit overblown in regards to their being some sort of a financial conspiracy to critics posting positive reviews of TLJ. First - I'd be curious out of those "top critics", how many would even describe themselves as casual Star Wars fans, much less "normal" Star Wars fans? It's hard to view the movie through the eyes of someone that has no real connection to Star Wars. I could be very wrong - perhaps most of those "top critics" were indeed at least somewhat versed in Star Wars.

    But in terms of real-life experience - I watched TLJ on opening night at the theater - completely full. At the end of the movie, almost the entire theater applauded. My wife thought the movie was "enjoyable", and my 9 year old thought it was the best Star Wars movie ever (and they've watched them all). When it was over, initially I thought it was pretty enjoyable overall, for maybe 5 minutes until my brain realized how they screwed the whole story up, answered nothing, and left no anticipation for IX. So based on that, I can see how the movie itself could get initial positive reviews, and it not be a conspiracy or biased.

    #3063 10 months ago

    Saw the movie this evening - I'd give it a C overall. First 1/2, even a bit longer, I was quite bored. Movie picked up as it got more towards the finish line. I didn't find the movie really creative at all - it reminded me of a mash-up of many other movies and plots, and I struggle right now to find one thing about it that had some originality. My 9 year old who is an Avengers and Star Wars fan was pretty bored through the first half as well. The movie never really established anything remotely dangerous for the hero IMO. She basically had no weaknesses at all, which again made it so it seemed she was never in any real peril.

    Bottom line for me is it reminded me of a "filler" episode of a TV series - something that wasn't up to par compared to other episodes, that really only acted as a bridge to fill in some overall arc and story-line bits.

    Unlike others - I actually had some pretty high expectations for this one - but left feeling a bit disappointed. And it's true, the cat is pretty much the best part of the movie.

    #3084 10 months ago
    Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

    I was hoping she was going to come in at the end & help save the day, but based on the trailers & post-credits scene I think she's an integral part of this film. That's not really encouraging.

    Disagree - coming in at the end and helping save the day would be the very definition of Mary Sue. It's actually better that she would be integrated and not swoop in at the end when all seems lost. It also lends one to believe she won't be OP and be able to defeat Thanos basically herself. And, honestly, I don't think the EG directors would even do that - they understand how important it is for the original characters to be heavily involved in defeating Thanos, and not a newcomer. I'm pretty sure we'll see a full team effort at the end.

    #3087 10 months ago
    Quoted from Underspin:

    Check this out! I WANT ALL OF YOU TO DO THIS AND POST IT. I just went to my local theater online. Tonight: Friday night 8PM Captain Marvel. Should be the hottest time and the hottest night for a movie. There are SIX seats sold right now. Holy **** lol.[quoted image]

    Some notes:

    1. Your theater has regular showings, IMAX showings, DBOX showings, DBOX 3D showings (nice theater!).
    2. You theater is playing this movie 29 times today, almost every 30 minutes from 11am-11pm there is a showing.

    I think it's a bit misleading to say your theater has only sold 6 seats to the hottest time and night of the movie, when your theater has chosen to show it 28 other times today. In comparison, a family movie geared towards children that just opened up yesterday, WonderPark, only has 8 showings for the entire day.

    #3090 10 months ago

    They can't win ... I've seen mostly praise about this, as it's very rare for a large company to backtrack on a decision like this, especially since it seemed so permanent regardless of fans desires.

    #3108 10 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Oh they said he was but in reality he was not. There was no effort to dump the script he wrote for GOG3 nor was there any real effort to find another director.

    "Marvel still hasn’t found a Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 director to take over for James Gunn, but they’ve approached a few people. One of those people was Adam McKay, director of Anchorman and the upcoming Vice. McKay has some Marvel experience – he worked on the script for Ant-Man, and has now confirmed he was up to direct Inhumans before it became a TV series. Appearing on the Happy, Sad, Confused podcast (via Geek Tyrant), McKay revealed Marvel big cheese Kevin Feige approached him about directing Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3."

    "Thor: Ragnarok director Taika Waititi confirmed today he will not take on Guardians of the Galaxy 3, defending former director James Gunn and referring to it as “James’ film.” Waititi was rumored to be the front runner director to replace Gunn on the project, following the latter’s firing by Disney and Marvel Studios in July 2018. “Going into something like that, which has got his stamp all over it, it would feel like going into someone’s house and saying, ‘Hey, I’m your new dad,’” Waititi said, as reported by The Wrap."

    #3110 10 months ago
    Quoted from rai:

    It seems like Captain Marvel and (so far) all Marvel movies have not been contaminated like SW (SJW/Fatigue)
    Captain Marvel has already surpassed Solo Domestic and Global totals
    Solo $392M world wide
    Captain Marvel at $594M has passed a lot of movies like many X-Men movies and is at 150 all time in just one week and change. Still well behind the dailys of Black Panther but otherwise solidly top 10 of Marvel movies.

    I think a lot of it is timing as well. The most anticipated Marvel movie of all time is a month away, and this is the connector movie between them. I know quite a few people that haven't seen a lot of the standalone Marvel movies, but saw IW and then Captain Marvel because they viewed it as important to see before EG. I think if Captain Marvel was made at any time before IW, it wouldn't have done nearly as well.

    #3116 10 months ago
    Quoted from EchoVictor:

    100% agreed that the "Star Wars fatigue" factor was always BS.
    I think what this Captain Marvel vs. Solo box office contrast shows/reveals is closer to the core of it....
    CM is doing well, because most people have no idea who the character is. Given the track record of the previous Marvel flicks, they see a new one coming out and figure, "what the heck, I'll give this new crew a shot". See the first GOTG for the proof of that pudding.
    Solo however was truly backlash for TLJ. Disney went in and messed with beloved characters with over 40 years of built up expectations in people's minds, as well as a wealth of established ideas in other media (books, games, etc.). If they would have left Luke and Leia out of TLJ, you wouldn't have near the anger you do now.
    Solo's box office was a protest/boycott, pure and simple.

    I just don't know if Solo is truly backlash. I can't quite put it into words, but I just see a big difference in making a movie about the past of a major beloved character in cinematic history, versus let's say a movie like Captain Marvel (or others) about a character that, unless you are really into comic books, probably don't know a lot about. I always thought Solo was a bad idea from the start - that you could absolutely love Star Wars, but still don't have much of a desire to see a movie revealing Solo's past. It's almost as if it takes away some of the original character. Sure I can see TV series, etc, doing it. But a movie is just different. Kind of like if they made a young Indiana Jones movie - even if you love Indiana Jones, I'm not sure you'd like to see a young actor playing him in his earlier days on the big screen. Something just doesn't feel right about that.

    1 week later
    #3143 10 months ago

    Saw Shazam last night - so much more enjoyable than Captain Marvel. Nothing groundbreaking, but just a really good pace and entertaining from start to finish.

    2 weeks later
    #3191 9 months ago
    Quoted from rai:

    Disney shares up 12% today.

    That's due to the Disney+ streaming service announcement. Price is shockingly low - $7/month, and includes everything. Investors are eating that up.

    #3204 9 months ago

    Come on now, even haters must admit that at least the title is decent. Especially compared to all the "rumors".

    2 weeks later
    #3255 9 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    How do you respond to the fact the Disney was buying blocks of tickets to pump up the numbers? Been documented a number of theaters having sold blocks of tickets and no one showed up to take the seats.

    It's hard to respond to rumors that are basically a few Twitter accounts, and "unnamed" movie theater managers. Until there is some actual evidence, I'd tend to go for what is most likely (Occam's razor usually wins out), and that's the fact that Disney wouldn't perform illegal, fraudulent activity (this would fall under investment fraud, inflating numbers to appear more successful to investors) that would mean potentially millions, if not billions, in fines and jail for top execs. It would also be very easily traceable to see who purchased tickets online if pursued, so no easy way at all to cover yourself.

    #3259 9 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    Oh please, they are already on record as having social media accounts shut down that were critical of of Disney and blacklisting a newspaper (LA Times) not to mention movie review sites having hugely skewed numbers. RT flushed 10's of thousands poll results so not to impact opening day.
    The Last Jedi ring a bell?
    Companies buying their own product to plump the numbers is as old as the hills, Scientologists have been doing it for decades. [quoted image]

    Again, just saying that there is no direct evidence of this at all, and all that you have is a few Twitter accounts and a few "unnamed" theater managers. Hardly anything that you could say is a smoking gun. I tend to take everything with a grain of salt and prefer to believe things where there is at least some decent evidence. Blacklisting the LA Times for a few days is not an illegal activity that would result in fines and jail - it was an action done because they disagreed with their article and took it a bit too personal. I can't find any info of Disney shutting down critical social media accounts, so I can't comment on that.

    #3266 9 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    I will point out that the federal government hid from the public JFK was also shot from the front from an overpass. This is a fact revealed when the governments own records on the subject were unsealed in 2017. The government buried that nugget since '63.
    Far as the FBI was concerned they had their man, he was dead move along nothing else to see.

    This explains a lot. We'll never convince you that conspiracies don't exist when you take information and twist it to your own narrative.

    #3268 9 months ago
    Quoted from gdonovan:

    I was pointing out the fallacy of your argument.
    If there is a half dozen credible reports on movie sites indicating "the hottest movie ever" is playing to empty seats even though tickets have been purchased occums razor points to the simplest answer, someone is padding the sales numbers.

    So it takes 6 repeated stories from anonymous twitter accounts and "unnamed" movie theater managers to convince you something is a fact?

    1 week later
    #3294 8 months ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    you forgot about the cringe-worthy female hero montage lol. was just so obvious what they were trying to do... took me out of the experience. they have created (re-created from comics etc) a lot of bad ass characters male and female (sans captain marvel) but they didnt have to shove that scene down our throats lol.

    I just hope that one day we can move past that - would anyone blink an eye if there was a shot of 6 male avengers working together for 30 seconds? It wouldn't even get noticed. You wouldn't think "Damn I wish they wouldn't ram that male testosterone down our face like that! It took me out of the movie!"

    #3300 8 months ago
    Quoted from Jason43:

    They also announced a new Indiana Jones film. So this will be one of two things. A recast/reboot, or 80 year old Harrison Ford back in the role. Either way, fuck off.

    They didn't announce a new one, just an updated release date. It was actually announced almost 3 years ago with a planned 2020 release. It's not a reboot - Spielberg directing with Harrison starring, no Lucas involvement.

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