This is a man who shot Greedo, took on a platoon of stormtroopers on the Death Star, fired up Darth's escorts in the trench with the Falcon and drew and fired on the most evil henchman in the galaxy at point blank range.

Oh trust me, there was much anger about Han dying like a bitch.

He would have shot Rylo's ass, son or no son. Totally out of character.

Just winged him a bit at least.

Kylo didn't do that. That was Snoke. Snoke clearly admitted to connecting their minds through the Force. And again, this isn't really something new in Star Wars. Jedi reach out and speak to/see each other all the time. Leia saw Luke on Bespin, and she was totally untrained and unaware of her powers at that point. Criticism is fine, guys, but let's at least not throw out all context.

No way. Han was a scoundrel, but had a huge soft spot in him. He came back to save Luke at the Death Star and risked his butt to do so. He did it again on Hoth. There's no way he would just shoot his own child.

EVERYBODY underestimated how far gone Kylo Ren was, except for Luke. Han thought he could turn him. Rey thought she could turn him. Luke understood, but he was unable to just kill him. Leia also understands, it seems.

25398900_2300204719997093_6216607301464964860_n (resized).jpg

Ummm, it would help the discussion if Rotten Tomato was actually around in 1977...? Also, I don't remember Luke running away, he was sent to train to become a Jedi after he destroyed the Empire's planet killer. But What do I know, JJ Abrams is a God.

The ship they were chasing had massive shields they couldn't penetrate - being in front or behind didn't matter so they followed them until they ran out of fuel.

Except a flight of three fighters blew the shit out of the bridge, but then they couldn't press the attack with their undoubtedly massive numbers of fighter squadrons because they were too far away to cover them

What?

You can do this routine with almost anything that has happened in an Star Wars movie ever made.

Why do this to yourself?

Don't leapfrog here. Rey could be a good pilot due to force sensitivity (as all might be), but don't leap from there to justify all points. Luke and Anakin were both explained to progress excessively fast in their ability to progress in the training of the force BEYOND what other force sensitive people normally could do. On a pace that shocked everyone with insight to the subject. EPI justifies this with the 'virgin birth' and other elements to establish Anakin as one of a kind... and sets up Luke to be the prophetic bringer of balance.

Again... the concern isn't that 'how is a nobody force sensitive' - it's how is a nobody on a force sensitive level as not seen since the Skywalkers.

They could not penetrate because they were "out of range." Who knew space lasers had a range that they just stopped working in the vacuum of space?

So then just jump to hyperspace to a point in front of the ship and wait for them. Actually they had a fleet and could have had several ships do that, movie would have been over right quick though eh?

It was poorly written.

You might need to go watch it again. They have no problem penetrating the shields, it was only penentrating them at the distance they were at, or so they said. Now that ramming is allowed I’m not sure why they don’t just remote ram them with a small ship (manned or unmanned) and take out all of the rebels in one hyper space jump.

I have to disagree with that one. Han thought he had one last chance at saving his son and bring him home. Getting older, love and children change people and it changed Han. He clearly had regrets about the relationship he had with his son and tried to save it. Even though he was killed in the process he showed he still loved his son by touching Bens cheek all while his son stabbed him with a lightsaber...that ends up sticking with Kylo forever in my opinion.

Out of character for Han when he was single and 35? Yes. Out of character for Han at 65 with a son? No. It wasn't out of character in the slightest considering the years and events that have passed. Maybe we need to consider the events and years that passed for Luke, how they affected to him and that's the reason why the events unfolded the way they did in Episode 8.

Maybe "light speed" only works for very long distances. It certainly seems really fast to cross the galaxy in hours.

I wasnt expecting a horse race through a town in the middle of a pointless 2nd act that went nowhere either.... surprise surprise! I thought to myself heres the prequels again.

Originality doesnt always make for a better movie.

Its not what Aurich said its the way he said it. Reality check Aurich.
What I found significantly more rude was Aurich abusing and name calling the op and thinking its ok to do that. Why? Because he read the title and had a sook. Aurich and Aurich followers... harden up.

And Luke also returned to the swamp after he rescued Han.

One thing to also consider is the validity of Rotten Tomatoes. Their credibility is questionable at best these days based on ownership.

Lasers degrade in intensity over distance, even in a vacuum, especially larger diameter beams. We've seen this with the lasers we fire at mirrors on the moon to measure things.

They couldn't send smaller ships out once a distance had been created. They would never make it without getting picked off by the cruiser's own laser turrets. The only option the First Order had was to pursue and wait for either another light speed jump or for them to run out of fuel cruising. It was the safest plan. It worked too, but Kylo screwed it up by letting his anger stop the advance on the base to face Luke.

Don't the use a combo of light speed and hyperspace in Star Wars? I think they get up to light speed and then enter hyperspace, but I might have that wrong. That could make short jumps problematic.

Lots of passion in this thread. Wanted to respond to so many posts and realized that would be futile. So I thought I’d tell a little story, as my reaction - and contribution - to this dialogue.

I remember seeing RotJ back in the day. I was a senior in HS at that point and highly anticipated the movie. I was a fan of “Star Wars”. Not crazy over the top mind you, but I did wait in line overnight 3 years earlier to see Empire in 70 MM the day it opened, at one of SoCals best theatres (at Newport Fashion Island).

So, after the amazing surprise that was Star Wars and the breathtaking majesty of ESB, I was pretty disappointed with RotJ. RotJ came off as kind of a caricature of a “real” Star Wars movie to me, with all the main actors playing caricatures of themselves. Really over playing them to a fault (the dialogue and direction didn’t help). Playing who they “thought” they should be, rather than “being” the real deal. Especially Han. It was like they could no longer play these roles fresh, after all the years of blockbuster stardom and hype.

RotJ has plenty of wooden moments and some very lame jokes. And (flame suit on) I just didn’t fully believe in Luke as a Jedi Master. In the opening scenes at Jabba’s to rescue Han, Luke is so stiff and overly serious. Comically so. Like he’s trying so hard to convince us that he’s a Jedi Master. It felt flat to me. In fact, the way he acted in RotJ is how he might have expected to act in TLJ under different circumstances. But whatever.

Slave Leia was kind of ridiculous (pretty questionable situation for the daughter of Anakin Skywalker). And Boba Fett is there, and cool why? I never understood the nerdy facination with Boba Fett. And later - after a second (how original) Death Star gets destroyed - we get the Ewocks and the happy dance with Force Ben and Force Yoda smiling their asses off while force Anakin looks like a zombie deer in the headlights. Yuck.

And yet, ya know, it wasn’t all bad. There was some bitchin’ shit in that movie, and I reluctantly enjoyed it. Maybe only a 6.5/10, but hell, it was Star Wars, right? But after, I was kinda over it all - like Levi is now - especially once it was understood that no more movies were forthcoming. And anyway, after the middle of the road RotJ, how could I ever have such high expectations again?

Well, after 15 years the blood was pumping pretty good when TPM finally arrived! I remember watching it wanting to love it so much. Eh. There was a lot to like, and a lot not to. After the huge build up, it was a another disappointment. In truth, this was two clunkers in a row. And my expectations for Star Wars movies have been low ever since. Which is why 7,8 and Rogue One have been such pleasant surprises.

And yes, I liked TLJ. It started poorly, got kinda random for awhile - and there was plenty to criticize, and things I’d do differently - but damn, those last 40 minutes or so felt like sheer Star Wars to me. All in all it was fun and I had a good time. And for the first time in about 20 years, I’m actually looking forward to seeing what’s next. Pretty cool.

TL;DR: My kids and all of their friends that have seen the movie LOVE it. My kids looked at me in disbelief today when I mentioned the hate TLJ’s getting online and on Pinside. I explained some of the reasons and they couldn’t care less. They simply loved the movie and can’t wait for the next one.

Star Wars indeed.

Yeah I loved it too. Especially the part where Luke floats around the island goes for a fish after jumping a gap or something, milks some weird creature and has a slurp with a stupid grin.... yep pure Star Wars all the way.

Are you a child John? Or a jaded old fart wishing things were like they used to be? I realized awhile ago that most commercials on TV aren’t aimed at me anymore. Harsh reality.

I saw the original when I was 4, or so. Loved it. Had all the action figures and the ships...got the AT-AT from my grandparents. I thought it was great. Loved it. You don’t have to agree with me...but that’s how I feel. Can’t wait to watch it again. After 35+ years, it’s so cool to see it still grab the imagination of generations...many of them.

Glad they are questions and not statements or they might be taken as personal attacks. My opinions differ from yours. Glad you liked it I didn’t. My kids liked this too, doesn’t make it a good movie because they liked it. I’m a realistic parent.... it ain’t hard to please children with movies these days. Might be time to understand this simple fact interesting that you’ve guaged the quality of this film from your kids reactions to it??? Fair enough.

Yes and yes I’m both (answering your intelligent questions) and I’ve also upvoted your post May the force be with you

Sometimes it’s instructive to look at things through a child’s eyes. Especially when watching something specifically crafted to bring a whole new generation of children into the fold.

I’m sorry that you and many others here can’t look past the movies shortcomings. I was able to, and thus enjoyed the flick.

So, TheFamilyArcade and several others have made this statement in this thread to people that didn’t like TLJ. Also, I looked around the net a bit and see several reviewers have made similar observations for those fans that are most unhappy with this show.

Here is my reaction on this “you must be old and grouchy if you don’t like this new offering from Disney” attitude many have to those of us that feel disinfranchised:

I love Star Wars, pretty much all Star Wars, I am a life long fan of the franchise. I even love the prequels (*gasp, a non-conformist*). Sure, I found EMO Anikan’s portrail in II and III to leave something to be desired here and there. Sure, the Ewoks were not my favorite characters and were at best poorly thought out. Sure, I thought TFA was a bit of a rehash and could have done without the planet Death Star.

But, in the end, I’ve bought all the movies in multiple formats (VHS, laser disc, dvd, Blue Ray, and digilitally); I’ve gotten many of the comics; bought many of the video games; bought toys; bought encyclopedias; went to actor signing events; listened to expanded universe books on tape; watched the Clone Wars and Rebels cartoon; etc.

For me to complain about something Star Wars means there is a problem, because I have no issue suspending disbelief and I get the difference between science fiction and fantasy. I’m vested in this franchise. I want this franchise to succeed. I’m fine with “new directions” and all that jazz but a good fantasy world (whether it’s filled with Hobbits or Ewoks) has rules that it follows within itself...these aren’t plot structure rules but rather rules that you stay within your own fantasy guidelines.

Rey becoming super powered with no training and no teacher violates the fantasy guidelines that were set out. This whole the force will always find balance thing means one side will not advance beyond the other. The whole Fly the Leia power and ramming and cheap low brow comedy spread across the entire episode combined with the weak story line of running out of fuel just makes me concerned for the future of the franchise.

It’s like James Cameron used to say, there is a big difference between giving people an ambiguous answer vs no answer when pushing plot points to a conclusion. Much of TLJ answers were “it doesn’t matter, move along” which is not how a good soap opera works, fantasy or otherwise.

Yes yes it does. Because "good" and "bad" is subjective. If they like it , it was a "good" movie to them. You didn't like it so it was a "bad" movie to you.

2 different opinions, neither of which are right or wrong , just different.

Since "good" and "bad" is so subjective, in a few years their or maybe even your opinion will change. Doesn't mean you were right or wrong before, your or their opinions just changed.

Boy we all sure do get caught up in the belief of how important our and others opinions are

That's public forums and pinside in a nutshell: grown men being triggered by a discussion about toys or fictional films

Not sure what I'm doing here

You already responded days ago,... why are you responding again?

Just got back from seeing it, took my 4 yr old son and 8yr old daughter, they liked it, thumbs up. Around an hour or so, I felt a little eh, but then the second half really picked up and far outweighed the first half. I thought it was pretty good overall.
Not a fan of some of the dialogue, or cheese, but it's Star Wars. I wasn't going expecting it to be Citizen Kane, or The Godfather, or the originals for that matter.

I mainly made the old fart comment for two reasons. One, I interpreted John’s comment as a sarcastic riposte to my comment that kids plainly love this movie. Two, if your frame of reference is the OT, you’re probably around 50 - give or take 5 years - or even older. I find many people in this age group - including myself - to be set in their ways and often nostalgic for things from their youth....like Star Wars...but maybe also jaded with it, without even realizing it. So Not “grouchy” so much as jaded and maybe even entitled?

My unscientific theory is that most of the people complaining about this movie are in this age group. They dont like what’s happened to their heroes, they don’t like the direction the franchise is going in - it’s out of their comfort zone - and their salty about it. They’ve also forgotten - or overlook - the imperfect RotJ, while holding these new movies to an unrealistic standard: the memory of what Star Wars meant to them in their formative years.

I never said I was right or anyone else was wrong??? Actually going through the posts nobody has. Aside from old mate who was implying I was an old fart (which I am) and aurich and his little gang there is no problem here. All healthy opinions and discussions here. I said fair enough... my kids liked it too, I’m not going to tell them not to like it.

Yes agree. Some good points there. We were given a fantastic revitalised movie in tfa and regained a vested interest in the plot and what may and may not happen then it was just thrown away for the most part. Just my opinion. Nobody is wrong for disagreeing. Old mates kids liked it... it took 16 paragraphs for him to say it but I did say that was fair enough. Good for him and them.

I've only seen TLJ once and I'm admittedly conflicted overall about the movie, but I like how Luke went out: i.e. On his own terms after discovering from Yoda that force ghosts can interact physically. Any fight taking him out or obi won moment would have felt cheap to me. I also like the message that it doesn't matter where a person came from, and lineage doesn't dictate destiny; those feel like themes that fit in Star Wars on a grander scale.

Overall, not my favorite SW movie but also not my least. I think it might age alright, as opposed to PM, which always felt pretty awful.

Yea, I could live with the "entitled" description. I do feel entitled to a good consistent product from the flagship series of Star Wars given the reasons I identify in the prior post. I've spent a lot of time and money with this franchise, I want to receive epic movies and I want the lore and history explored deeper...I am disappointed this did not happen.

As I said earlier in the thread, I had fun watching TLJ. I didn't walk out of it or anything. It just was simply not a worthy flagship movie in my opinion. If they wanted to take the comedic tone with the Han Solo spinoff I would not have a problem with it, but they went this direction with the flagship...they went the direction of no soap opera, no interesting questions and rendering older movies less important. Odd choices.

I'll be back in the theaters for Episode IX, just less excited about it than I was walking in for Episode VIII. It'll be a boring two years in the Star Wars realm with literally nothing for us fans to talk about for the first time since Disney bought out the franchise. I guess we do still have a half season of Rebels left and that show has been getting better and better, so that's a plus.

Your fears are likely unfounded. Disney is printing money and there will be another trilogy right Around the corner...and then another...and another...and annual spinoffs...

I wonder if there’s a point where people truly do get sick of it?

Nope...I was indroconated as a young child and will forever go see everything Star Wars.

Here is a great little video about how disney effects the SW franchise and a little review into the buildup for TLJ. Some real in depth truth on how disney operates, and the future of SW.

I saw it and enjoyed it. I bought a roast chicken on the way home and it decidedly tasted like porg. #porgtheotherewokmeat

Such an underrated post

The internets: where anything can turn into shit or gold, at the whim of a few keyboards....

Lasers that are fired through and have to return through Earths atmosphere, something that isn't happening here.

Before people drop the highly cliched "you're old" line which I find to be both overused and irrespective to any debate, consider this:
Disney keeps purchasing tried and true intellectual properties saving the need for creation of something new.
Reboots, prequels and retoolings are growing stale quickly for a great number of people.

Why did I dislike the TFA and TLJ so much? Disney posed this great promise of moving away from the prequel trilogies and then brought in the original actors as a bait and switch to what we knew.

Instead we get re envisioned heroes, bland story telling, lack of character development.

Subjective is opinion, and I am sure any Star Wars movie they make will be financially successful. That however does not "prove in the courtroom of public opinion" that it is good

We the people who are "just old and jaded" are responsible for this franchises initial popularity.

Why cant't Intelllectual properties and franchises be left alone? Where does it stop? Reprint the Mona Lisa with a tattoo and nose ring? Change Mozart by adding a digital drum beat?

The Last Jedi, to me, truly represents creative bankruptcy.

I wanted to mention action figures and Star Wars.

So I was like in 5th grade when I saw the original. The toys broke new ground and inspired other ground.

Didn't lucas just crush things here with the toys? I remember reading.

Anyways the toys though they revolutionized toys. They redid the desire for toys.

I remember seeing the toy box at toys r us, you had to send in to get these figures.

Major pain in the ass, we did it.

Just to get those figures.

My late grandmother Bodak bought me the Death star playset.

She also bought me the two foot tall alien toy.

Also way back then, a kid I barely knew, a relative, Built a twenty foot star destroyer playset himself in his basement.

It was all cardboard, not that great.

But very inspired.

I think I might actually have that guys phone number. I think he is a cousin. I wonder what else he made?

Star Wars love. I feel it.

I thought this was a movie? Why so important?

Bland and bad storytelling is my biggest beef with this movie. Great production values, music was ok (call backs to original movies several times) good CGI, but these don't make a great movie.

I know I have read a LOT about writing stories and movie making in general which makes me sensitive to the subject but I find it amazing that there is a sizable number of people who don't care the movie has rampant plot holes, poor character development and complete disregard for prior canon.

This will kill any franchise dead. In the end, a good story well acted is what makes it exciting and memorable.

What really amuses me is Disney has stated the extended Star Wars universe doesn't exist at the time they purchased it.

Clearly the original Star Wars universe they purchased from Lucas doesn't exist either based on the last 2 major movies. Rouge One stands alone and is a decent if not great effort.

Disney is clearly planning on killing what made the original great and parade around in a "skin suit" with Star Wars plastered on it hoping to rake in the bucks. Lucas at least had more respect for the creation he brought forth, Disney does not.

Just another acquisition to be exploited.

The only thing I'm getting more sick of than Star Wars is Red Letter Media Star Wars Youtube links.

Star Wars fans are the worst. I saw the movie yesterday with my kids and loved it. Parts of the movie didn't make much sense or felt rushed but overall it was very entertaining. I also think they are trying a little to hard to copy scenes from the original trilogy. Clearly the end of the final movie battle was a Hoth copy. They had to throw in a guy tasting the white surface and saying "salt" so you know it's not snow. Casino was the catina. The Rose character felt really out of place being a maintenance worker, then elite spy, then pilot, then love interest. It also seemed out of place that Rey was just hanging out with Skywalker but after that can swing a lightsaber like the best and do the whole Jedi thing. It just seemed like producers jammed pack the movie with action sequences with little room to explain things. Oh well, movie was great fun and I learned long ago not to expect too much from any movie. Star Wars movies are made for the masses and especially kids. Gotta sell the merch you know. The original trilogy has turned to legend. If you actually watched them again with a critical eye, they have many flaws and scenes that don't make sense. As long as these new movies do not suck so bad as the prequels I am happy.

Can you name one thing from the original trilogy that makes as little sense as just waiting your opponents fleet out, when you have a fleet of other ships to surround them with, or just send in your own damn bombers?

Can you name one subplot/subsection of the original trilogy that is as mind boggling as to why it is in the movie in the first place as the whole casino subplot?

I can't; the reason the orginal movies are "legends" at this point is they weren't total crap . They had their flaws sure, but they were exciting movies with memorable characters. I didn't hate The Last Jedi, but it had a whole lotta stuff that I am shocked did not get changed during the writing process. Script seemed pretty amateur, and there was not really any inspired film making that I could see. Basically a paint by numbers Star Wars film, most surprising things to me were some of the humor choices. And that is not why anybody was lining up to see this movie.

Wanting the lore and history extrapolated is totally fair. As a rule, I want that too. I would have really liked more Snoke/Knights of Ren in particular. I’m intrigued by Rey’s raw power. It doesn’t grate on me. I feel we’ll get her deeper story next, because the series needs that to happen, to truly create a bond with Star Wars nation.

The episodes that have the most depth are the prequels. I’ve watched them numerous times, and am not a “hater”. I enjoy them for what they are, and some very memorable and important things (for a space opera anyway, lol) happen in that trilogy. But they disappoint on many levels, which I won’t bother going into.

Which harkens back to my “16 paragraphs”: Half of these “Epidode” films are mediocre! Only two are really excellent movies, through and through. So why are there such high expectations for this franchise? Because it was really, really awesome when we were kids? 40 years ago?

It really is a pity that my expectations are so low, but it sure helps me enjoy the movies better. Hopefully the next one has more meat on the bone.

Everyone, please, just keep reading this. I literally know people that think The Gore Gore Girls is a classic good movie and can't stand Citizen Kane.
If you enjoy a film and it was good to YOU, that's all that matters. Jeez...what's so hard to understand.