(Topic ID: 302856)

Spirit of 76 ball advance

By BubbaK

3 months ago

Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 26 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 64 days ago by iamdrunker
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider


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s76 diagram 2 (resized).jpg
U relay (resized).JPG

#1 3 months ago

I've got a Spirit of 76 that I've been cleaning up. Game was playing great. I cleaned and waxed the game and put new rubbers on. I started having some startup and now reset issues that are driving me crazy. I've got the game to go through the reset, eject the ball and game plays. B1P1. Ball drains, kicks out, but doesn't reset or advance to ball 2. Not sure where to start.

#2 3 months ago

To start, try it on a 1-player, 2-player, 3-player, and 4-player game. Same symptom for all? Also, is the end-of-ball bonus scoring normally? If you are still on B1P1 after it kicks out, and still scoring normally, there is a First Ball Relay that is supposed to trip when any score has been made. Look for that on the schematic.
.................David Marston

#3 89 days ago

I believe the trip for ball advancement is under the front skirt, on the track that leads from the kickout hole to the shooter. Check for the switch operation underneath the playfield.

#4 89 days ago

Thanks guys..

On Multiplayer, it doesn't advance to P2. Stays on P1. Bonus counts down properly, motor runs, U drops out, ball ejects. It doesn't reset drop targets either. If I hold in U during the reset process, it does reset everything and advance to B2.

SteveFury - Thanks. The trough switch does work properly. It works at the start of the game, just not after ball 1.

#5 89 days ago

Does the Add Player Unit relay (P) activate and hold for 1/3 motor revolution when the ball goes across the Trough switch?

#6 89 days ago

So you're seeing the U relay energize during play, and then de-energize after the ball drains and the bonus is counted?

Could this switch on the AX relay not be closing well enough?

U relay (resized).JPG
#7 89 days ago

HowardR - I'll check the P relay and see what that is doing. I don't believe it fires. The drop target banks don't reset either. The bonus counts down and the O fires to eject the ball.

paulace - I went through the AX relay a few times and everything appears to be good. I'm going to go at it with some jumpers tonight and see if I can narrow it down.

#8 89 days ago

There's so little movement on those AX relay armatures, I'm always suspicious of those switches. Jumpers are a great idea...good luck!

#9 88 days ago

I noticed something tonight. When I power on the machine, the game over and 1st ball relay pull in. I checked my Cleopatra and the only relay that pulls in on power up is the game over. I have also been having some intermittent no starts. Pushing the credit button does nothing. Power the machine off/on and it works.

This has to be something stupid. The game worked fine before I cleaned it and after I cleaned it. I've been using the Plastone files and they leave grit behind. I did go behind and blow compressed air to hopefully remove anything left behind.

HowardR - When the trough switch is pressed, the P relay does fire. The ball in play does not change.

s76 diagram 2 (resized).jpg
#10 88 days ago

On a 1 player game, when the ball drains (after some points have been scored) the Add Player Unit relay (P) should fire the Add Player Unit solenoid 4 times through these 4 circuits.
If that doesn't happen, starting with these switches on BX, P, U and I, Inspect and diagnose this circuit with Alligator clip jumper wires

Example of a pinsider actually doing this https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/red-baron-tech-question#post-5858156

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#11 88 days ago

Thanks Howard. The U relay is dropping out after the bonus unit counts down. It sets after the points scored and holds in the whole round. Once the ball drains, the bonus counts down, P fires and U drops out then O fires to kick the ball out. If I hold the U relay in during the ball drain, that circuit works as expected.

#12 87 days ago

If the U relay drops mid game then this switch on AX or the hold switch on U most likely isn't making good contact.

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#13 87 days ago

So I should put a jumper on the Red-white on the AX to the U coil to test. Should I leave the jumper on and play the game or connect when the ball drains?

#14 87 days ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

So I should put a jumper on the Red-white on the AX to the U coil to test. Should I leave the jumper on and play the game or connect when the ball drains?

Let's make a guess based on little to no information that the problem is in the wiring or switches between the AX relay's switch that has a Red-White wire on one terminal and a Slate+Black wire on the other terminal, and the U relay coil. So thinking about the operation of the machine as a whole, we don't want the kick over of the first ball across the trough switch to advance from 1st to 2nd ball. So after the machine has reset and the 1st ball has kicked over the trough switch, connect a jumper wire, as you suggested, from the Red-White terminal on the AX relay switch to the Slate+White wire on the U relay coil.

If the U relay now stays activated, the Add Player Unit relay (P) now activates as it should, and probably the game plays correctly, then the problem is to the left of the AX relay's switch's Red-White wire on the schematic fragment in post #12 above. Most likely the AX relay's switch or the U relay's switch.

Assuming all that works out, the next step would be to make another guess about whether the problem is in the AX relay's switch or the U relay's switch, and place the jumper wire accordingly for the next test.

#15 87 days ago

Perfect.. Thanks HowardR.. I should be able to get to it tonight and test.

#16 85 days ago

I'm a bit confused as to whats wrong. If I jump the U hold switch, it works. I've done everything possible to this switch and will not work without jumper. Looking at the diagram, the H M/B switch also sends power that way. When I push on the H switch closed contact, the trough switch fires the complete ball advance cycle. HowardR - Where you drew the red line in post #12, at H closed switch, you went to the line down. Shouldn't it go across the H and send power to U coil also?

#17 85 days ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

Where you drew the red line in post #12, at H closed switch, you went to the line down. Shouldn't it go across the H and send power to U coil also?

Good thinking!! Remember though that the schematic is drawn with the game reset and unplugged. So since the H relay is the Tilt Hold relay, with the game plugged in and reset, the H relay make/break switch you refer to is in the opposite position from how it's drawn on the schematic.

#18 85 days ago

HowardR - OK. That makes sense.. Thanks for that. Turns out pushing that switch had nothing to do with it - operator error. So I'm down to a jumper across the hold switch after the initial hold happens, I connect the jumper and the game works fine. What I've noticed is that during scoring, the U relay will release when the score motor turns - even with my jumper on it. Not every rotation. It will rotate, release and stay off. It will fire when points are scored, but sometimes will release after the point. A turn of the score motor and it works and holds it seems. Seems like 500pts seems to trip it. The U relay coil is toasted and gets warm fairly quick, but I don't think thats the problem. I also reflowed the solder on the wires to see if that would help. Nada.

#19 85 days ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

jumper across the hold switch

I don't know what you mean.

#20 85 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

I don't know what you mean.

Sorry.. The U hold switch

#21 85 days ago
Quoted from BubbaK:

Sorry.. The U hold switch

Check the U relay's hold switch then.

For a switch to work 3 things are necessary:
1) When open, there should be a small space between the contact points (duh)
2) When closing, the long blade's contact point should push the short blade's contact point enough to move the short blade
3) The contact points should be clean, which they usually will be if #2 is happening

#22 85 days ago

Thanks HowardR ... I'm a bit embarrassed, but ultimately, the game is working. Long story short - The switch on the AX relay was out of adjustment. I ended up jumpering the wrong set of contacts initially - way wrong set of contacts.

#23 84 days ago

I'm glad you got it fixed. And looking on the bright side, now you know how meticulous you have to be when diagnosing this kind of problem.

#24 84 days ago
Quoted from HowardR:

I'm glad you got it fixed. And looking on the bright side, now you know how meticulous you have to be when diagnosing this kind of problem.

Absolutely. I was bouncing back and forth on 2 games which I normally wouldn't do and didn't pay attention..

2 weeks later
#25 64 days ago

I had another issue or few issues pop up with my Spirit in the last week. Most minor tweaks, but one really drove me crazy, and with that DaMoib. Spent all day back and forth with him and finally got it. I wanted to share - maybe it will help someone else..

Drop targets weren't scoring 500 points. They would score random values on 1 or up to 4 players. We jumped out everything possible, checked the 1A circuit, score reel switches, M relay and nothing changed. The M (100pt relay) was not releasing sometimes quick enough and the score reel wouldn't release quickly so it missed the 1A pulses. We narrowed it down to either score reel or M relay. I pulled the coil out of the frame. I thought the frame may be magnetized, but it wasn't. I cleaned everything real good, including the brass screw which was very corroded. Put it back together and it works perfectly. Not really sure exactly why though.. If all else fails, clean some more.

#26 64 days ago

We have some great people helping people on this site. Every time they get us through a issue we learn a bit more. Maybe, (Hopefully) someday I can give back just a bit of the knowledge we learned from them.

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