(Topic ID: 152933)

SPIKE - no interlock?


By 85vett

3 years ago



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#51 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

- 1st - No coin door ball save. It's in the options but when I open the door the ball drains and ends the ball. I like this feature as it prevents you from losing out on a good game if something comes lose. In this case my wife was having a great ball (pretty rare for her) and a bulb came out. She trapped the ball and I opened the door and told her to release the flipper as I have coin door ball saver on. Ball drains and she loses her ball.

Quoted from chuckwurt:

On my GOT the flippers stay powered with the coin door open, so you can hold the flipper up the whole time the coin door is open. It actually happened to me in a tournament too. The ball got stuck in the top lanes. They took the glass off, put the ball on my engaged flipper, put the glass back on, lockdown bar on, locked it, and closed the coin door.

I missed an important note in the first quote. I didn't realize that he instructed her to release the flipper. The ball drained because she released the ball. Not due to the machine killing power.

The second quote makes me very happy as a tournament director and player. That's important information to know.

Thanks for the clarification!

Marcus

#52 3 years ago

Yeah I don't see any issues for tournament directors and using spike games.

#53 3 years ago
Quoted from KerryImming:

For some of my own work, I tried to find the electrical requirements/code that required the interlock switch. 70V DC is on the edge of what may or may not require that. With 48V DC there is no requirement.

Its been a while since I've laid eyes on UL22 (that use to cover amusement games - video and pinball). As I recall, any voltage higher than 48VDC (maybe it was a higher value) could not be accessible without service disconnect. With the flipper lugs right there above the cashbox, it was necessary to remove this power (approximately 73VDC) to prevent shock hazard to anyone having access to the coin door (not necessarily a qualified service personnel).

Gottlieb did it with full AC disconnect to get their UL listing. At one point, Data East games (or were they Sega?) were shipped with a Fish Paper/Cardboard bezel encasing the entire cash box area so there was no access to any voltage other than what was on the coin door. I don't think you could even reach the tilt bob. Then either Williams or Sega came up with the idea of disconnecting the higher voltage secondary AC from the transformer. Which again, made sense since the transformer was located fairly close by the door hinge. Earlier Interlocks were there only for Memory Protect circuits.

If everything is now 48VDC or less, there is no requirement for the disconnect. I would question the move of the power switch being UL related. It was never an issue as long as all connections were properly covered and dead metal grounded. But moving it to the head eliminates a butt load of wire and hardware to save on cost. And regardless of your thoughts on the move, it makes total sense as an engineering design point.

Anyone know if there is a service outlet in the head now?

#54 3 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Anyone know if there is a service outlet in the head now?

Yep, @ lower right corner of the head.

#55 3 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Yeah I don't see any issues for tournament directors and using spike games.

Except when one of the bulbs on the spotlights falls out and you open the coin door, ball drains and ends the game.

#56 3 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Except when one of the bulbs on the spotlights falls out and you open the coin door, ball drains and ends the game.

GOT doesn't cut power to the flipper when the door is opened, because it doesn't have an interlock.

The issue the OP is having is that he had enabled the coin door ball save feature, but it doesn't work, because there isn't an interlock (or other switch) at the coin door to know that the coin door is open.

Solution to all problems:
- Stern removes menu setting for coin door ball save
- GOT owners and tourney directors learn that flippers (and everything else) will be energized when the coin door is open

#57 3 years ago

Its a huge pain to have someone keep the flipper button pushed while there is someone else playing to the left & right of the machine & Im trying to take the glassout & do whatever service is needed. Its hard to have a customer that involved with you when trying to preform service.

#58 3 years ago

They don't have to hold it the entire time you're servicing it

#59 3 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

The second quote makes me very happy as a tournament director and player. That's important information to know.

Yeah this is great! We spend so much time during our tournament setup disabling the interlocks on any games that have them so we can place balls on flippers with the door open during any stuck ball/malfunction issue.

#60 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

They don't have to hold it the entire time you're servicing it

I understand that, I guess once that coin door opens I want the customer back from the machine, just 12 years of coin op route operating and a million comments when trying to do my job I wanna focus at the task at hand. I wanna make the process as easy as possible for me & my customers.

#61 3 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Except when one of the bulbs on the spotlights falls out and you open the coin door, ball drains and ends the game.

Nope. That won't matter either as you trap the ball, hold it, and when you open the coin door the flipper stays active until you let go. So one person cradles while the other gets the glass of and the LED out off the playfield.

#62 3 years ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Nope. That won't matter either as you trap the ball, hold it, and when you open the coin door the flipper stays active until you let go. So one person cradles while the other gets the glass of and the LED out off the playfield.

It shouldnt take 2 people to perform minor service issues like this.

#63 3 years ago
Quoted from MoonwalkerArcade:

It shouldnt take 2 people to perform minor service issues like this.

In a tournament they aren't going to allow Chuck to do all this himself.

#64 3 years ago

So, how do you accomplish this when playing on your own? I can't remove the glass and hold a flipper button by myself. It's not all about tournament play here. If you're a couple shots from Iron Throne and have to service the game it's going to piss you off.

Just seems as though they should have put a switch there if they didn't want the interlock so that they could at least recognize when the door was open during game play.

#65 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

So, how do you accomplish this when playing on your own? I can't remove the glass and hold a flipper button by myself. It's not all about tournament play here. If you're a couple shots from Iron Throne and have to service the game it's going to piss you off.
Just seems as though they should have put a switch there if they didn't want the interlock so that they could at least recognize when the door was open during game play.

Totally agree.

#66 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Yea it's not really important to add an interlock switch for only coin door ball saver. The only possible code change here is to remove coin door ball saver from the menus. And since the game defaults to this setting being off, there's really very little benefit to even bothering to remove the feature.
As far as testing, many issues are solved by actually running the game with flippers and coils active in switch test mode. This is why the stern interlock switches enabled the pull out feature to reactivate the high voltage during diagnostics. Starting a game and testing is actually not the way it's been done in the past. That doesn't give you a good overview of the state of the switches. No wonder there are so many tech threads on these forums. Sheesh.
Now we know that it's not going to be possible to cut high voltage with the coin door open regardless what software does, it doesn't make sense to simply kill coils in the menu just because that's what you're use to.
The spike system is much simplified over older Sam and whitestar systems. It's time for people to learn how to diagnose problems on the new system and how it works without complaining that it's not the way it use to be.
Not everything is about cost savings and being cheap on the customer. Sometimes things are just changed as a result of moving forward. I'm surprised people aren't complaining that there is only one board in the head instead of the 5 data east use to have. "For what we pay, we should get more than one small board!" Lol.

Just a FYI. When you go into the settings it cuts power to the coils so your argument here is actually proven to be false (just tested it again). Let's try to not just give Stern a pass for something as "moving forward". I still see no benefit from this move.

#67 3 years ago

Yeah that damn Spike system!

I want unfused bridges back, I liked melted input power harnesses and 20 pound game specific transformers to scavenge to fix machines! None of this PC compatible plug swap-able supplies for ME!

And 40 pin interconnects, wft? I like having ribbon cables and 6 modules in the head all jammed into the head!

And SCANBE sockets and security PICs and 8 ROMS to burn to update speech and massive 10watt resistors on the lamp matrix to suck up power! Oh yeah Stern better cut that out! I LIKE 60Watts of power per game.

And don't get me started on flash-able firmware updates!!! I didn't buy my erasers and burners so so folks could use these newfangled thumbdrives!!!

DAMN YOU STERN!!!!!

#68 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

If you're a couple shots from Iron Throne and have to service the game it's going to piss you off.

You're going to get over it, because it's almost never going to happen. Trust me, all us W/B guys dealt with it.

#69 3 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

Yeah this is great! We spend so much time during our tournament setup disabling the interlocks on any games that have them so we can place balls on flippers with the door open during any stuck ball/malfunction issue.

Just a FYI to you and Xerico as I know you are looking at it from a tournament perspective. I tried going into the adjustments menu (as suggested). That will actually kill the coil power and the flippers will drop. The ball will drain and the ball saver will not recognize the situation and it ends the ball.

Just something to look out for. If you have someone holding on to their ball. Make sure the tech is 100% clear to not press any buttons until they have ball in hand. Changing the volume did not do this but going into the service menu does.

#70 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Just a FYI to you and Xerico as I know you are looking at it from a tournament perspective. I tried going into the adjustments menu (as suggested). That will actually kill the coil power and the flippers will drop. The ball will drain and the ball saver will not recognize the situation and it ends the ball.
Just something to look out for. If you have someone holding on to their ball. Make sure the tech is 100% clear to not press any buttons until they have ball in hand. Changing the volume did not do this but going into the service menu does.

Did you have coin door ball saver set to ON? If you did then there's a bug somewhere.

For anyone that needs to handle it themselves as mentioned. Cradle the ball, open the door, go into the test menu (flippers will die), fix your problem, exit the test menu when you have everything ready to roll and it should get you right back to where you were.

That's the proper behavior if Coin Door ball saver = ON.

#71 3 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

Did you have coin door ball saver set to ON? If you did then there's a bug somewhere.
For anyone that needs to handle it themselves as mentioned. Cradle the ball, open the door, go into the test menu (flippers will die), fix your problem, exit the test menu when you have everything ready to roll and it should get you right back to where you were.
That's the proper behavior if Coin Door ball saver = ON.

Yes. Coin door ball saver is turned on.

#72 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Yes. Coin door ball saver is turned on.

Can you take a video and email it to me at ifpapinball@gmail.com?

Would love to make sure this is sorted out before TPF/Nationals/Pin-Masters in a few weeks

#73 3 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

Can you take a video and email it to me at ifpapinball@gmail.com?
Would love to make sure this is sorted out before TPF/Nationals/Pin-Masters in a few weeks

Would be glad to help.

Edit - Here is the video. Will e-mail you as well. The volume seems to be a bug as well. Not sure if you can tell how load it is for being at level 1. Separate issue but that would be nice to have adjusted as well while I'm being picky

-1
#74 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Just a FYI. When you go into the settings it cuts power to the coils so your argument here is actually proven to be false (just tested it again). Let's try to not just give Stern a pass for something as "moving forward". I still see no benefit from this move.

Wrong. It actually does not cut power to the coils. Get a meter out and test the coils while in the service menus. You'll find the HV power is still present.

All it does is have software cut the energized coils (as if you released the button) but the HV is still present. There is no benefit to disabling the coils during switch test as it is an actual useful test to have coils run during this menu item (older games allowed it also if you enabled HV in switch test).

As the architecture was already explained above it doesn't make sense to repeat it all here because you incorrectly assumed coil *power* was cut in the menus. There's a big difference between cutting power to the coils and having software deactivate active coils. Therefore, this is not giving stern a pass. It really is moving forward.

#75 3 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

Did you have coin door ball saver set to ON? If you did then there's a bug somewhere.
For anyone that needs to handle it themselves as mentioned. Cradle the ball, open the door, go into the test menu (flippers will die), fix your problem, exit the test menu when you have everything ready to roll and it should get you right back to where you were.
That's the proper behavior if Coin Door ball saver = ON.

When there's no interlock switch, there can be no coin door ball saver. Perhaps it be renamed to "menu button ball saver".

#76 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

Wrong. It actually does not cut power to the coils. Get a meter out and test the coils while in the service menus. You'll find the HV power is still present.
All it does is have software cut the energized coils (as if you released the button) but the HV is still present. There is no benefit to disabling the coils during switch test as it is an actual useful test to have coils run during this menu item (older games allowed it also if you enabled HV in switch test).
As the architecture was already explained above it doesn't make sense to repeat it all here because you incorrectly assumed coil *power* was cut in the menus. There's a big difference between cutting power to the coils and having software deactivate active coils. Therefore, this is not giving stern a pass. It really is moving forward.

Keep arguing semantics but the video clearly shows that the coils go dead. I don't care if it's because the power is cut or if the software tells it to do so. Either way, your explanation of the "benefit" is wrong. I know I'm sounding like an ass here but I'm not a programmer and don't care to be. I just know what is physically happening on the game and while in the service menu the coils will not fire which is what you were saying the benefit would be. That part is not true.

#77 3 years ago

Great thread! Lots of useful info and only modest drama.

(Edit:perhaps spoke too soon

#78 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Would be glad to help.
Edit - Here is the video. Will e-mail you as well. The volume seems to be a bug as well. Not sure if you can tell how load it is for being at level 1. Separate issue but that would be nice to have adjusted as well while I'm being picky
» YouTube video

Thanks!

Can you actually go all the way into switch test and see if it's still behaving the same way, instead of just the test menu? Curious if that will trigger it.

#79 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Keep arguing semantics but the video clearly shows that the coils go dead. I don't care if it's because the power is cut or if the software tells it to do so. Either way, your explanation of the "benefit" is wrong. I know I'm sounding like an ass here but I'm not a programmer and don't care to be. I just know what is physically happening on the game and while in the service menu the coils will not fire which is what you were saying the benefit would be. That part is not true.

There is a big difference...

One system has high power there... the other does not.

The flipper being energized or not is downstream of that. Think of it as 'ignoring the switch' where the old model was 'cut the power'.

One solution is controlled by software and could easily be changed, the other could be a design constraint.

#80 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Keep arguing semantics but the video clearly shows that the coils go dead. I don't care if it's because the power is cut or if the software tells it to do so. Either way, your explanation of the "benefit" is wrong. I know I'm sounding like an ass here but I'm not a programmer and don't care to be. I just know what is physically happening on the game and while in the service menu the coils will not fire which is what you were saying the benefit would be. That part is not true.

Wtf? The goal isn't for coils to appear to go dead when you open the coin door. The goal is for you to not get shocked accidentally touching a coil and ground. That was the only intent of the coin door interlock feature *ever*. You can get shocked the same if the coils killed by software or not. The software does not have the ability to kill the coil *power*.

The software fires the coils by grounding the transistors but the power is always present. On older games with an interlock, the power physically got cut when the door was opened so even if the transistor got shorted the coil could not fire. On the spike games, there is no way to cut high power because it's all tied to a single 48v source. So when the menus are entered any energized transistors are killed but the power is still present on all the coils. You surely can understand that without being a programmer right??

Having high power present on coils is not semantics. It's what the cut off was all about - nothing else. And you have no idea what is "physically happening in the game" you only know what you witness which has nothing to do with the possibility of getting shocked or not.

I don't know if I've ever had someone argue so adamantly on a point they were totally wrong about before like this. I'm flabbergasted

#81 3 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

Thanks!
Can you actually go all the way into switch test and see if it's still behaving the same way, instead of just the test menu? Curious if that will trigger it.

Switch test will reenable the sw control of the coils just like it has since whitestar. Nothing is changed there.

#82 3 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

The goal isn't for coils to appear to go dead when you open the coin door. The goal is for you to not get shocked accidentally touching a coil and ground.

I thought it was to make it harder to accidentally send high power to the switch or lamp matrix ?

LTG : )

#83 3 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

I thought it was to make it harder to accidentally send high power to the switch or lamp matrix ?
LTG : )

Right? I don't understand any other argument to be honest. I know I've accidentally dropped a screwdriver/wrench before and been like "damn... I almost caused a big mess there...".

#84 3 years ago

Update on this (especially for TD's):

Game of Thrones will have the Coin Door Ball Save adjustment REMOVED from the setting menu on the next update.

Ultimately though with the interlock disabled you won't ever need to worry about trapped balls going into the drain because the flippers won't be disabled. You'll be able to open the coin door and grab the ball while the player keep any balls trapped on their flipper (or pulled out of the game and placed back on the appropriate flipper when you're ready to button the game back up).

If you are playing alone at home and don't want to take a advantage of a stuck ball in multiball, then you have to treat it like a WPC-95 game. Dump the ball into a VUK somewhere and open the door and jump into the test menu. This will stop the ball from kicking out of the VUK and you'll be able to unstick the ball and continue about your business.

#85 3 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

Thanks!
Can you actually go all the way into switch test and see if it's still behaving the same way, instead of just the test menu? Curious if that will trigger it.

Will do. I'm away from my house the rest of the day for soccer and my daughters gymnastics but I'll give that a test first thing in the am tomm and will report back.

#86 3 years ago
Quoted from 85vett:

Will do. I'm away from my house the rest of the day for soccer and my daughters gymnastics but I'll give that a test first thing in the am tomm and will report back.

Don't worry . . . it's not going to work

#87 3 years ago
Quoted from ifpapinball:

Don't worry . . . it's not going to work

Ok. Appreciate you looking into it. Bummed on the outcome but atleast there won't be any suprises if that scenario happens at a tournament. I let Collin know already for the purposes of TPF.

#88 3 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Stern when the economy tanks again. It'll be tough going at the current price point.

I'm not a fan of the cuts, but the improved margins from their cost cutting actually means they're best positioned to weather downturns.

If they ever face any real competition, they're also in position to significantly drop prices, still be profitable, and really put the pressure on the competition.

If they're going to make these kind of cuts though, I'd prefer they were limited to the pro line. Premium and LE line should keep all the quality and traditional features.

It does sound like Stern still has in mind a below-pro line, they've made noises as though the home-pin line may come back.

#89 3 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

I would question the move of the power switch being UL related.

Does using the built-in switch of a UL listed power supply help with approval of the game?
There is also the cost savings of not running the power up to the front of the cabinet.

#90 3 years ago
Quoted from KerryImming:

Does using the built-in switch of a UL listed power supply help with approval of the game?
There is also the cost savings of not running the power up to the front of the cabinet.

Every item on the Main AC input must be a UL listed component for the machine/device to get UL approval. This includes wires, fuse holders, EMI Filters, connectors, etc. Metal plates used to mount AC power devices must be grounded. All of this adds to the cost of building a game. If you can eliminate it, not only does it becomes easier to get UL approval, but you save money at the same time. So, YES, Using a UL listed power supply which encases all the Main AC and only outputs lower voltages, makes getting UL approval a lot easier. It may also help on the FCC Part 15 end since wires become antennaes and can radiate RF emissions making it harder to get it to pass for residential use.

Don't think these things happen only to save a few cents on the BOM.

#91 3 years ago
Quoted from CactusJack:

Using a UL listed power supply which encases all the Main AC

Just as an FYI, Video games moved in this direction a LONG time ago. Lots of vids use standard (sic) PC power supplies.

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