Own both, Magneto LE and original red SM. Both games are fun but different. Neither are deep like lotr or tspp. There is enough there for good quick games on both. I would say SM is more enjoyable for non pinball people for sure. SM seems to shoot smoother at least to me. XM can feel clunky if bricking a lot of shots, but when playing well the game is a blast. I would say you could go either way depending on your mood at the time. Probably not much of a help, but I guess this is a good problem to have.

I think this is important. X-Men may have started the trend of "just about finished but not quite there"....and then abandoned. This trend continues today. Spidey is DONE. Done done done. It's a game. A real game. You'll never have to wish for one last update.

That's one of the funniest things I've heard.

Each owner keeps adding more mods. It has to be one of the most heavily modded games ever made. Definitely looks and plays great.

Agree with RZrider xmen is a shooters pin, with out a doubt will make u a better player, u can't just flail the ball an hope for the best, the shots are so tight u must concentrate, and slow down, but if your on point the combo flow is crazy, Spider-Man is more forgiving an flows like butter, but won't punish you as hard for bricked shots, which casual players find more attractive, very hard choice, can't go wrong either way on this one.

Well, also Spidey has a center post between the flippers. You can remove it if you want more challenge.

Yes. Doing this makes missed shots a lot less forgiving. The good thing about setting up SM harder is the code thrives on it. On XMEN, whether you set it up harder or easier, you can go 5-10 mins of non stop play and not progress very far. It's a tough game, both shot wise and code wise to progress in, but when you do get locked into all the shots - it's a great feeling.

...until Beast or Storm say something lol ...then you want to cease to exist.

Too bad nobody loved XMLE when I was trying to sell it twice (same game) first time removed from lack of interest literally no one wanted it unless it was for a stupid trade like XMLE for WPT

Second time I had to give away a super clean loaded XMLE for less than $5000 with color DMD.

No one would touch it. Now if your getting in on the ground floor so to speak buying it at $4900 for an Le maybe you can sell it for not much loss.

IMO all pro XM guys must already have it and everyone else is not interested unless it's a steal deal.

The magneto call outs are pretty wretched too especially in multiball. Fix wolverine, the sound package, and polish the unfinished multiballs and the game would be hit. I still agree, underrated, and it's a fun pin to shoot, but those elements I mentioned make me cringe every time I think about getting the pin back in the lineup (and I've owned both the LE and PRO).

It's never getting another update, and everything else is too much work. At the end of the day, if you want a Borg game, there are already other great alternatives.

Looks at my collection

Tron
IM
TWD
Met

XMLE (gone)

See, you know what's up.

Also Lyman, Lyman, Lyman, and Lyman.

Really makes you wonder....is it the programmer or the designer?

Both. The design has to be good (or good enough) to start with, and the programmer has to have a feel for how the code will make those shots fun, satisfying, strategic, work well with the theme, choreograph the light and sound FX, etc.

Normally I almost always agree with your opinions of games, but this is one where I differ. Now I will say that when the game first came out, I totally agreed with you, the game was awful (I first played an LE). It was just a mess and the LE toys are more annoying than they are fun.

Fast forward a couple years, I bought an X-Men pro, thinking I was only going to have it for a few months and then sell it...I think I've had it 3 years now. In any case, I disagree with your current assessment of the code compared to like Spiderman (which I also owned).

Modes--X-Men has 7, SM has 5. So much better modes on X-Men other than Bonesaw
Villian (SM)/Hero (XM) modes--SM has 4 villians with the same shots over and over, X-Men hero modes are varied and fun. Xavier mode is one of the best modes in pinball.
DMD--X-Men is way better
Sound--SM is way better, X-Men callouts are some of the worst ever
Multiballs--SM doc ock ones are better, I think this is X-Men's weakest point, no jackpot calls
Both have combo's, just different styles.
Shots--

The main thing SM has over X-Men as far as rules go are the multipliers of shots. Those can add some advanced strategy to that game. X-Men is more about trying to stack multiballs on top of modes to complete them (although SM is like that too). SM has a lot more problems with shot repeating (you have to hit the villians so many times towards the end, gets a little woodchoppy), X-Men doesn't really have any of that.

When I sit down to play X-Men, I have no idea how the game is going to go, just depends on what shots I'm actually hitting. Where as SM every game was basically the same 'hit arrows to start mode, stack multiball, rinse, repeat' with the occasional shot multiplier adding some later game excitement. X-Men has two wizard modes, SM has the one, both are equally hard to get to.

I just think X-Men got a well deserved bad rap at the beginning that it's been unable to shake until recently. It's hard for me to think of a game that has better modes than X-Men.

Go with the cheaper one and enjoy -

That's an interesting perspective to try and make XMEN sound better.

First, having more modes isn't always better. Shots are tighter on XMEN, therefore harder to complete modes. And unfortunately you are FORCED to complete every mode in the game to progress. So you can play the same mode over and over and over until it's finally beaten...boring! So arguing it has more modes on a harder layout vs SM is a negative not a positive argument.

Repetition: most pins, even my beloved GOT with different house strategies, has an initial setup that typically works. Sure there are other ways to tackle games and it is players choice. But for SM, typical strategy is light a web mode, get a multiplier, start web mode, start dock ock. I will agree SM is much more repetitive on a factory setup with center drain post save. Remove that and the whole game changes. For XMEN, mind you my memory is fuzzy from the 2 years I owned it, but the strategy is cyclops > storm all day to complete those then it's iceman > Xavier to complete those. Throw in a villain mode or a mb to help with Xavier and that's the jist of it. Not to mention accidentally starting wolverine from his oversized figurine. But there's repetition in both games, the difference is SM flows like butter while XMEN doesn't which could lead to bricking, boredom, and frustration as you fail to qualify heroes.

I will say this, the light show on villain modes on the LE is BAD ASS. So is the spinning disk mb start. But, again - plan on repeating modes over and over. Don't get me wrong, the game is good and it is underrated slightly, but it needs polish (which it will never get) to become great.

Wizard modes:
If I remember correctly, both pins have 2 wizard modes. Battle Royale (SM) is the easiest of all the wizard modes to attain. Danger room (XMEN) next - and is a bad ass mode. Super hero is the next hardest and is considered one of the best wizard modes in pinball, probably a top 5. Dark Phoenix being the next hardest and is cool too but not as good as SH or DR.

All in all, while XMEN has harder to attain wizard modes I will put both games ball times and progression pretty close to equal (mind you I do play SM with lightning flippers and no center post).

SM has been proven, as the ratings show, to be one of steve Ritchie's best and Lyman's best. Though with TWD and AC/DC codecs, SM has slid down Lyman's amazing list of all star coded games, but it is still up there as one of his better games.

XMEN is waisons first shot at pinball coding. It wasn't til Lonnie stepped in and saved him with danger room rules to help push that game up. But still, as cool as all the multiball starts are in this pin, the mb completions do not feel, well.... completed.

Bottom line - TLDR; XMEN is good. It's just not SM good

This is correct. To which I will reply..
SM is fun. It's just not X-Men fun.

I could see that if you're a really good player that if you're constantly getting 8 heroes lit but not all completed it might be frustrating to have to replay some of them over and over (but if you're a really good player, I can't see why you'd be repeating them as most of them aren't super hard). I've never really ran into that, maybe because I'm either 'on' and able to complete the modes one after another or 'off' and I lose three balls long before I repeat a mode. I did run into the Venom woodchopping a lot though when I had SM, where I'd have everything else complete but venom and have to spend a bunch of time.

I actually really like both games, and could see why somebody could like either of them better. I just disagreed with Rare Hero's assessment that X-Men was total trash (which is one of the only games I disagree with him on). I think the biggest thing that X-Men has over most games is the dual wizard mode thing, that aspect makes it really fun so you're not going down a linear path every time.

After letting the question settle in for a day, I have to vote for SMVE over XMLE. I'm sure there's a bit of "root for the underdog", and "I own it so I like it" feelings that were keeping XMLE in the running. But more objectively, SMVE is the better game. XMLE does feel great when your hitting the shots though, and punishing when your not. So, play it if you get the chance.

When a game first comes out and people pre-order it, I'm sure they do have some confirmation bias that tells them their purchase was good and the game is great when really it isn't. Eventually, they come around to that and sell it and move on to something else if they really didn't love the game.

At this stage in the life of both XMen and SM, I think its safe to say if someone owns one currently, they own it because they like it more than the other title.

I'm surprised artwork hasn't been discussed more in this thread. The artwork on XMen is superb. It is the best looking Stern from its era by far. The Ultimate Spiderman artwork is fine (I'm not tossing stones at it) but the Ultimate Spiderman comics were not the best received artwork in the history of Marvel in general...90's XMen (which the game is designed/styled after) was the best looking artwork in the history of Marvel (at least according to many comic fans).

XMen's genuine backglass looks so good it makes the fake mirrored translight of my TWD LE I have next to it look terrible. It makes all the fake mirrored ink translights look bad. Only my Sorcerer has a backglass that compares to XMen's. I'm not talking about the design, I'm talking about just the look of the backglass and how it reflects light. (The deisgn itself is stunning on both Magneto and Wolverine, they nailed the characters perfectly).

The sheer number of characters from the comics that are in XM help the player feel that he is part of the XMen universe while playing the game. By contrast, SM has very few characters (villians or friends) in the game represented from its universe.

Folks don't want to buy and have trouble selling Xmen because it is better. Got it!

Alright, I'll bite. There are 7 X-Men LE's on the market for sale right now but 15 Spider-Man's on the market for sale. You are suggesting one of them is tougher to sell than the other?

This poll is close for a reason, both games are liked by many.

I've played Spider-man before, but not in some time. I literally just had an Xmen LE Wolvie delivered a couple hours ago, and I have to say I absolutely love the machine. I still don't know much what the heck I'm shooting for - and I find it a little to heavy in the multi-ball area - but its amazingly fast with the magnets and spinner. I also very much like the Xmen as a theme, although I like Spidey as well. Xmen also makes a nice change of pace pin for me, as I have an AFM and there's some similarities with the 3 bank on SM and AFM.

I think the takeaway from all of this is that you're not going to go wrong either way and, as with everything, it's really subjective. I suspect the best pick will be the theme your like most.

Oh yeah, that reminds me of another reason I hate X-Men...the giant, close to the flippers Wolverine toy is the easiest Multiball of all time ever to start. All you have to do is keep bashing it and eventually you get Multiball. I kept asking Lonnie to change it so that the Wolvie hits light a shot or series of shots that must be completed to start Weapon X Multiball...so it isn't SUCH a gimme. I'm pretty sure the instruction cards actually say those are the rules.

Cue someone saying "then don't hit it" ...lol...sorry, it's a poorly conceived toy and bad rules associated with it.

This is all true. That's why doing this..
IMG20170520235150 (resized).jpg
..turns the game into something so much different.

I like mods, but I'd rather Stern make a good toy to begin with...just turns a bad toy into a captive ball. Doesn't change the "Hit 5 times for Multiball" rules.

Yeah. There are over 500 more SM than Xmen LE's in folks collections. Take away pending SM there are 12 SM and 7 xmen Le's for sale. No Pendings on Xmen. 500 more SM is a lot.

Also 2 SMVE are priced the same as NIB at around $6800 (?) and 2 SMB priced at $7600 and $7800. I did not know they go for that much with chrome and back glass.

For wish list Xmen for Pinsiders is at 137 and SM is 600. Although folks may put down 2 or even 3 SM on their wish list.

Always good info to check wishlists before you buy any game. Free info.

I really think a lot of folks who voted for Xmen should vote with their wallets and go out an buy one. Show some balls! Do it!

Once again - crickets.

Xmen is a good game, but not SM good.

I did. Bought a routed Pro. It was the most money I have ever paid for any pinball machine too. Don't regret it for a second. I like the SMVE, but I don't think the value is there for me personally at the prices people are asking for them.

Xmen pro is good if you can find one. Not many own them. I mean I would not put a Xmen pro over a original SM either though. Even at $1000ish more for SM.

I want to point this out..and don't get all huffy and offended at me for saying it, because it's just something I've noticed and I'm pretty sure it's true..the people who are supporting X-Men are experienced players. Guys like rotorDave and C2step etc. This is not some hysterical fan boy parade. It's very considered opinion from a lot of experience.
That still leaves it subjective of course, and doesn't prove anything. It's just that the type of review that the game was getting after a long time of being released, and from whom that opinion was coming, made me first take notice.

You're doing it wrong then. The key is not starting it at all till you have a villains mode commenced. You want to stack Weapon X with Sentinels or Jug (or later in the game Shadow King if you go for a restart). It's easy to start Weapon X right out the gate but if you do it that way you just lost a lot of value by not being able to stack it.

I don't get what response you are looking for here.

By the way, one should not need to tear down one game to make the other game look better. There is plenty of room for both SM and XMen to be considered good games.

It took me years (and consistent badgering to an op friend who had the only one on route here) to find one at a price I wanted to pay. I was not a big fan of the moving Ice Man ramp on the LE, so even though I love the art package and the lights on the LE, I wasn't going to pay a premium for one. I honestly do feel lucky to have a Pro at the price I paid.

Doing it right or wrong isn't the issue. It's conceptually a horrible toy with horrible multiball start rules attached to it. Most Multiball features on pinball machines have locks. If not, they have virtual locks. Wolverine is just "bash bash start". It sucks. X-Men was the first game programmed by a newb (Waison) ...and it really showed that he had no idea what makes pinball programming PINBALL. Sure, they scrapped most of his ideas and tweaked it - but the game will always have a footprint of how it started. They've never been able to completely erase that. Sure, it's better than how it started...but it will never be a tight cohesive game like Spider-Man or anything programmed by Lyman or Keith.

I don't know, I consider myself a pretty good player. But, I have said, and will say again, XMEN is very fun to shoot. And, SM is an easy game and gets repetitive and boring unless you set it up harder > the rules compliment a harder setup; i.e. Pitch it at 7.4, remove center post, and if you wish, throw in some lightning flippers. XMEN, despite being a fun (but hard) shooters pin still has its issues - sound package is hit and miss, wolverine is way oversized, and the multiballs feel unpolished and unfinished. So SMVE still gets my vote for the 'total package', but XMEN is a good shooters pin. Heck my 3 favorite upper flipper shots in pinball are warp ramp (STLE), storm (XMEN), and Venom (SM)...in that order. Beast loop to storm ramp is one of the coolest upper flipper combo shots in pinball.

..and an X-Men supporter to boot!

Seriously though, you're also very balanced in your assessment. And that's all that the supporters are trying to point out, that on-balance X-Men is very underrated and actually a really good game.

I've been staying on the sidelines

Just like
Metallica sparky
Metallica coffin
Metallica gravemarker
Tron disc
Aerosmith toybox
Walking Dead prison
Walking Dead "Well-verine"
AC/DC Album (bash drops)
AC/DC Jam (bash 8 Ramps)
AC/DC Tour (bash loops)

Man, those all suck too!

Seriously though, both SM and XM are cool games.

SM has smooth Ritchie flow due to its wider shots and layout. Downside is all the modes are much the same, and multiball Jackpots are low, which makes everyone play the game much the same way. Multiball - Bash the sandman, multiball - Bash the sandman, multiball - Bash the sandman. And bash the Goblin. Which is cool, most games have a certain way to play them.

XM has a much tighter layout that some don't like. Software offers a lot of different modes and different options playwise which offers more variety.
Try to complete Heros and go for Danger Room?
Play villains which are worth good points?
Complete Heros which adds good points to Magneto MB jackpots?
Stack Heros and villains and multiballs?
Lots of different ways to play the game.

Both are very good games, you can't go wrong with either.

rd

Heck yea! ...minus the issues I've already stated. I owned an LE for a year and a pro for like 9 mos. great game. But I still vote for SMVE - total package.

Speaking of, anyone have an X-men pro in the great lakes area? Possibly trade for a JM?

What did you pay for it? I'd buy an XMEN LE for $5k or less, but maybe not for more. Is that out of line?

I sold my original SM for $5,100 years ago, before the VE was even a concept. It was my favorite pin ever at the time...but after you shred Super Hero for the second time it's time to move on.

I really enjoyed owning and playing the XMLE I had for a while. I traded my TWD Pro for it, which was a great opportunity for me to own my first and only LE machine. For me, it was a very fun game and I loved putting together combos and the ColorDMD looked fantastic. I thought it is a beautiful pinball machine and since I'm an Xmen fan I thought the art was fantastic. Eventually I sold it just because I enjoy trying other games and I bought a Met Pro and still have that. My wife never got into Xmen didn't seem to be a fan of it, so that was part of my decision to move on to another game.

I don't feel I need to defend Xmen to anyone else just because I owned it. Play it and buy it if you like it. Or don't. Why should I care what game someone else like or doesn't just because I owned or own one? You ain't coming over to my house to play and I ain't coming over to yours.

Not to go off topic, but as a new Xmen owner I want to install this mod - is it still available somewhere with the smaller and better sculpted Wolvie?

I totally appreciate your appreciation for XMLE...but saying " no contest" compared to Spidey smacks of ignorance.

You're stretching.

Almost every single of one those is a farther/harder shot, an actual COOL toy, or has rules associated with it that make it connect with other aspects of the game. Wolverine does nothing except start Weapon X over and over.

Wellverine & prison are horrible toys too, but have Lyman rules wrapped around them.

Also you don't "bash" ramps, drops or loops.

FWIW and price comparison, I paid $5200 for the HUO, low play mint XMLE I purchased today.

Glad to see you finally appreciate SM. I recall when you didn't. You really have me intrigued by this "remove the center post/put on lightening flippers" and the game is brand new opinion. I would LOVE a good reason to repurchase SM, a game I've played, and loved, probably more than any other. Can you elaborate on why these changes mean better integration with the code?

Another comment, I owned and loved AC/DC, but I question its superiority to SM. Same with TWD, although I haven't owned that. I have played it, but not enough to immerse myself in the code and therefore understand the game completely. Like a lot of things, I imagine "recency bias" comes into play when judging and ranking games. Maybe AC/DC and TWD are better than SM...but all that means to me is that they must be some of the best freaking games ever made. Because SM is.