(Topic ID: 186016)

Space Shuttle - ball trough eject issue

By noiseprisoner

7 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

You

Linked Games

#1 7 years ago

I have a project Space Shuttle machine that I have been troubleshooting a few issues on. Most of them have been resolved but a couple really annoying ones remain:

-The ball trough eject (solenoid 2) tries to fire to eject the ball into the trough but just sits there and keeps weakly trying, quietly clicking. If I manually give it a nudge from below, it will fire out the ball. I have 3 balls in the game and have tested the 3 trough microswitches which are all working. The transistor tests good and was replaced anyway for good measure. The assemblies are all tight and appear to be aligned well. The coil/diode also tested good but was replaced for good measure. The same exact problem continues to occur. I even tried swapping a separate known good Sys9 board into it and it does the same thing. Any ideas?

-Also, the bell is causing me some confusion. It appears to be wired fine and dings fine during the solenoid test. However, when it fires during the game it causes an annoying buzzing-type sound, definitely not a bell ring. I watched it while it did this and the striker seems to hit the bell and just lock on, instead of going back and forth. I'm not experienced with bells so I'm not sure what this could be...

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

#2 7 years ago
Quoted from noiseprisoner:

I have a project Space Shuttle machine that I have been troubleshooting a few issues on. Most of them have been resolved but a couple really annoying ones remain:
-The ball trough eject (solenoid 2) tries to fire to eject the ball into the trough but just sits there and keeps weakly trying, quietly clicking. If I manually give it a nudge from below, it will fire out the ball. I have 3 balls in the game and have tested the 3 trough microswitches which are all working. The transistor tests good and was replaced anyway for good measure. The assemblies are all tight and appear to be aligned well. The coil/diode also tested good but was replaced for good measure. The same exact problem continues to occur. I even tried swapping a separate known good Sys9 board into it and it does the same thing. Any ideas?
-Also, the bell is causing me some confusion. It appears to be wired fine and dings fine during the solenoid test. However, when it fires during the game it causes an annoying buzzing-type sound, definitely not a bell ring. I watched it while it did this and the striker seems to hit the bell and just lock on, instead of going back and forth. I'm not experienced with bells so I'm not sure what this could be...
Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

Check your voltage at the outhole kicker coil. I don't have a space shuttle but I believe it should be around 28 volts. Also check coil sleeve, make sure it isn't binding the plunger. Also check the coil itself, should have very low resistance, like 10 to 15 ohms. Verify that the correct coil is in there. If the coil voltage is too low, then go to other coils and see what they measure. Usually the coils are daisy chained so there could be a bad solder joint or a bad connector somewhere in the game. Also make sure the diode is in the correct polarity. Is the bell fird by a coil as well? That could be the same issue as the outhole kicker.

#3 7 years ago
Quoted from Lovef2k:

Check your voltage at the outhole kicker coil. I don't have a space shuttle but I believe it should be around 28 volts. Also check coil sleeve, make sure it isn't binding the plunger. Also check the coil itself, should have very low resistance, like 10 to 15 ohms. Verify that the correct coil is in there. If the coil voltage is too low, then go to other coils and see what they measure. Usually the coils are daisy chained so there could be a bad solder joint or a bad connector somewhere in the game. Also make sure the diode is in the correct polarity. Is the bell fird by a coil as well? That could be the same issue as the outhole kicker.

Thanks for the response. I previously checked the voltage and it was 28v but I'll check it again to make sure it's consistent. The coil/sleeve/diode all seem totally fine, even the one I swapped out. The whole mechanism moves very smoothly by hand, no resistance at all.

I'll go through the other coils again too and check them closer. Thanks again.

#4 7 years ago

Connect a jumper wire to the ground braid, then touch the other end to the control wire on the coil. Does it fire correctly each time you touch it? If not then you have a bad power wire connection somewhere. Even one strand of the wire will show 28 volts but not pass enough current to fire the coil. If it does fire correctly then your problem is on the control wire.

#5 7 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Connect a jumper wire to the ground braid, then touch the other end to the control wire on the coil. Does it fire correctly each time you touch it? If not then you have a bad power wire connection somewhere. Even one strand of the wire will show 28 volts but not pass enough current to fire the coil. If it does fire correctly then your problem is on the control wire.

Awesome tip, I'll check it out. Thanks!

1 week later
#6 7 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Connect a jumper wire to the ground braid, then touch the other end to the control wire on the coil. Does it fire correctly each time you touch it? If not then you have a bad power wire connection somewhere. Even one strand of the wire will show 28 volts but not pass enough current to fire the coil. If it does fire correctly then your problem is on the control wire.

I connected a jumper wire to ground and then to the control wire and it fires hard every time! So, my problem is in the control wire path somewhere. I get continuity between the control wire on the coil and the board connection. I re-pinned the old IDC connector with a solid Molex one and the problem remains. The transistor has been replaced on the board and tests good. It's like something isn't making a good ground connection where it should be. Any further ideas?

Oh, on the bell: I spent some time adjusting the metal piece that strikes the bell and now it works consistently. Woo hoo!

#7 7 years ago
Quoted from noiseprisoner:

It's like something isn't making a good ground connection where it should be. Any further ideas?

If the transistor isn't turning on then you wont have a ground to fire the coil. You need to troubleshoot the board now. Do you have a manual with a diagram for the cpu board?

#8 7 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

If the transistor isn't turning on then you wont have a ground to fire the coil. You need to troubleshoot the board now. Do you have a manual with a diagram for the cpu board?

Yes, I have the manual. The transistor has been swapped and gets the same readings as the surrounding ones. If the transistor was bad, would the coil still try to fire? I can hear (and feel) it trying to fire very weakly. I can definitely try another transistor if that might help.

#9 7 years ago

I didn't mean that the TIP is bad. But something that should turn on the tip is not working. This is why you need to trouble shoot first then replace the bad components.

#10 7 years ago

On page 25 lower right corner of the page you will see Q-48 TIP122. Along with that there is a predriver Q-44, 3 biasing resistors and part of a AND chip U-57. Hook up your logic probe to 5 volts and ground and set it to TTL. Put the game in solenoid test and lock it on #2 solenoid. The PIA chip will send out a 5 volt pulse to fire the coil, This pulse will go to U-46 pin 3 first then come out of U-46 pin 2. Take your probe and check pin 2 for high pulses. If good then move to U-57 pin 12, there should be high pulses also. Next check pin 13, it should be a high signal. Since U-57 is an AND chip and you have a high on pin 13 and high pulses on pin 12 then pin 11 should have high pulses too. If this is all good the put the probe on the base leg of Q-44, You should have high pulses here to. These high pulses will make Q-44 turn on and off causing voltage to flow thru R-165,Q-44 and SR2. The voltage drop across SR2 pin 2 will be @ 4.5 volts (a high on the probe) which is applied to the base leg of Q-48 which will turn it on allowing the solenoid to be grounded and fire. If you do not get high pulses on SR2 pin 2 then probe both sides of R-165, if it is high on both sides with no pulses then Q-44 is bad.

#11 7 years ago

Oh yea make sure 1J13 is connected on the cpu board as it is the solenoid ground wires.

#12 7 years ago

Thank you so much for the detailed info, this will help me a lot! Sounds like I have a fun weekend project ahead of me.

#13 7 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Hook up your logic probe to 5 volts and ground and set it to TTL. Put the game in solenoid test and lock it on #2 solenoid. The PIA chip will send out a 5 volt pulse to fire the coil, This pulse will go to U-46 pin 3 first then come out of U-46 pin 2. Take your probe and check pin 2 for high pulses. If good then move to U-57 pin 12, there should be high pulses also. Next check pin 13, it should be a high signal. Since U-57 is an AND chip and you have a high on pin 13 and high pulses on pin 12 then pin 11 should have high pulses too. If this is all good the put the probe on the base leg of Q-44, You should have high pulses here to.

Oh man, I feel like I'm getting closer! Here's what I found so far from your instructions:

U-46 pin 2 has high pulses
U-57 pin 12 has high pulses
U-57 pin 13 has a high signal
U-57 pin 11 has low pulses (not correct per your instructions, they should be high pulses)
Also checked the base leg of Q-44 and it is low signal.

So, would that mean that the problem is in U-57 or would it do any good to try changing Q-44?

Thank you!
Brent

#14 7 years ago

To have high pulses you need to have a pull up resistor because the chip can only drive the signal low. SR1 pin3 is 560 ohm resistor that pulls up the signal. Check the ohm's between SR1 pin 3 and the 5 volt test point.

#15 7 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

To have high pulses you need to have a pull up resistor because the chip can only drive the signal low. SR1 pin3 is 560 ohm resistor that pulls up the signal. Check the ohm's between SR1 pin 3 and the 5 volt test point.

I'm getting .554 ohms between SR1 pin 3 and the +5v.

#16 7 years ago
Quoted from noiseprisoner:

I'm getting .554 ohms between SR1 pin 3 and the +5v.

Might have the DMM not on autorange. Try it again and measure from pin 1 to pin2. Then pin1 to pin3 Then pin1 to pin4 and so on. All should read 560 ohms except pin 10 which is ground. With the power on check pin 1 for 5 volts also.

#17 7 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Might have the DMM not on autorange. Try it again and measure from pin 1 to pin2. Then pin1 to pin3 Then pin1 to pin4 and so on. All should read 560 ohms except pin 10 which is ground. With the power on check pin 1 for 5 volts also.

With the power on, I get 5v on pin 1.

I'm using the "2k" ohm setting on my DMM for ohm testing on SR1. With a lead on pin 1 and going down the line with the other lead, I get roughly .555 ohms on every pin, except pins 6 and 7 only show about .225 ohms each.

#18 7 years ago
Quoted from noiseprisoner:

I get roughly .555 ohms on every pin

This is your DMM so is this 555 ohms or 1/2 ohm. One is good the other is bad.

#19 7 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

This is your DMM so is this 555 ohms or 1/2 ohm. One is good the other is bad.

I'm reading it as .5 ohm but as you can tell, I'm a newbie to really digging into troubleshooting the board components. It looks like SR1 and 2 have been replaced at some point. Is it possible that it may be installed backwards? I assume there's a pin 1 mark but the printing is so faint I can't really tell. Weird about the lower readings on pins 6 and 7 though...I checked them several times.

#20 7 years ago
Quoted from noiseprisoner:

I assume there's a pin 1 mark but the printing is so faint I can't really tell.

White dot on board is pin 1. Usually the label side of the resistor pack... pin 1 on the left.

#21 7 years ago

Your problem is U-57 or SR1 so its up to you as to what is wrong. So far it looks like SR1.... But a .555 ohm reading just is too close to what it should be 560 ohms, maybe check a another loose resistor and see what it reads. Or recheck on a different ohm setting.

#22 7 years ago
Quoted from noiseprisoner:

Is it possible that it may be installed backwards? I assume there's a pin 1 mark but the printing is so faint I can't really tell.

I would think if it was installed backwards that you would have problems with 8 coils not just 1 coil.

#23 7 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

Your problem is U-57 or SR1 so its up to you as to what is wrong. So far it looks like SR1.... But a .555 ohm reading just is too close to what it should be 560 ohms, maybe check a another loose resistor and see what it reads. Or recheck on a different ohm setting.

I ordered some parts from Marco and replaced SR1 and Q44. SR1 now is getting 560 ohms all the way across. The ball trough issue remains so it's probably U-57. I ordered a 7408 IC to replace it but they sent me an IC stamped 7402N, so I'm a bit worried it's not the correct one. I emailed them about it to get more info. Other than this one remaining issue, the game is playing really well.

Thanks for all your help

#24 7 years ago
Quoted from noiseprisoner:

they sent me an IC stamped 7402N

This is a 2 input NOR chip, not a good substitute for a 2 input AND chip.

Quoted from noiseprisoner:SR1 now is getting 560 ohms all the way across.
What did the old one measure out of the circuit? Was it bad or was it the wrong part?

#25 7 years ago
Quoted from GRUMPY:

What did the old one measure out of the circuit? Was it bad or was it the wrong part?

A couple of the legs measured bad but it was the right part. Marco is sending me a 7408 IC so I can replace U-57.

Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
$ 69.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Pimp
 
$ 50.00
Cabinet - Toppers
Slipstream Mod Shop
 
$ 12.50
Lighting - Led
RoyGBev Pinball
 
From: $ 35.00
Cabinet - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
From: $ 1.25
Playfield - Other
Rocket City Pinball
 
2,200 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
Allentown, PA
$ 18.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 44.99
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Pinball Shark
 
$ 69.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Pinball Pimp
 
$ 33.95
Eproms
Pinballrom
 
$ 65.00
Boards
Pinball Haus
 
From: $ 33.00
Gameroom - Decorations
Rocket City Pinball
 
6,500
Machine - For Sale
Homer Glen, IL
Hey modders!
Your shop name here

Reply

Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.

Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!

Donate to Pinside

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!


This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/space-shuttle-ball-trough-eject-issue and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.

Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.