Space Odyssey Starts on Ball 2, won't switch to 2 player

(Topic ID: 226088)

Space Odyssey Starts on Ball 2, won't switch to 2 player


By zimmer62

79 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 20 posts
  • 2 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 47 days ago by MarkG
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 8 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

Space Odyssey Ball Index relay 3 (resized).jpg
IMG_0540 (resized).JPG
IMG_0541 (resized).JPG
Space Odyssey Ball Index relay 2 (resized).jpg
IMG_3603 (resized).jpg
Space Odyssey wire color (resized).jpg
IMG_3601 (resized).jpg
Space Odyssey Ball Index relay (resized).jpg

#1 79 days ago

So my Space Odyssey Starts on Ball 2 and won't switch to 2 player mode without rolling back the player reel, or holding the ball index open when pressing start.

I've been focusing on the player reel, figuring that was gummed up. It's not.

When pressing the start button, I watch the player reel, and it resets, then advances twice (putting the machine on ball 2)
If I press the start button again, it repeats the above. It's the second advance that strikes me as odd.

If I move the player reel back one manually it switches to ball 1 and I can press the start button again to switch to 2 player mode, and everything plays fine.

One thing I noticed is that the ball index relay starts up as activated right after pressing the start button, before scoring any points. (Not sure if that's normal for this game)

I held the ball index relay back from being activated, and pressed the start button, and the game reset and stayed on ball one. I was able to press start again to add the second player. Possibly something is activating the ball index before it should?

I feel like my problem has to be related to the ball index relay or whatever activates that... Possibly on the scoring motor during a reset?

I've been studying the Space Mission schematics because I don't have the schematic for Space Odyssey. Could it be different enough that I should be tracking down that schematic first?

Any clues to point me the right direction. I feel like I'm close, but just haven't pinpointed the problem yet.

Thanks!

Zim

#2 79 days ago
Quoted from zimmer62:

I held the ball index relay back from being activated, and pressed the start button, and the game reset and stayed on ball one. I was able to press start again to add the second player. Possibly something is activating the ball index before it should?

Let's explore that theory some. There's not much driving the Ball Index relay:
Space Odyssey Ball Index relay (resized).jpg
If you block the three switches in red with pieces of paper (and check for shorts, bent solder tabs, etc.), do things work better? If so, remove the paper bits one at a time to see which switch allows the relay to fire when it shouldn't.

/Mark

#3 78 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

If you block the three switches in red with pieces of paper

When blocking a switch are you recommending blocking it from mechanically triggering all of the contacts? or are you suggesting trying to find which contact on the relay and only block that one contact? I tried both ways.

I tried blocking the switches and got some strange behavior.

I did find a way that the machine would not accidentally start a game on ball 2, however either the tilt or the ball index would be buzzing loudly at this point trying to trigger.

The tilt and the ball index where the ones that made a difference. The extra ball made no difference.

At one point I must have bumped something I shouldn't because the game would not come off of tilt mode. I eventually got that behavior to stop but I have no idea why it stopped.

#4 78 days ago

The way I think of it is that a relay has a bunch of switches, each switch has two or three leaves, and each leaf has a contact. To block a switch I usually fold a small piece of paper in half, then put the fold over one switch leaf and contact to prevent it from touching the other leaves and contacts. Blocking an entire relay affects all of its switches and changes too many things at once.

If you block the three switches in red, the Ball Index relay should never fire. If it does, we have more digging to do.

If you press the start button and things work better with all three switches blocked, try again with with one switch unblocked. Repeat that test for all three switches, unblocking just one at a time. Try to identify which of the three switches lets the Ball Index relay fire when it shouldn't.

Stick with the Start button/ball count problem when you have the switches blocked. If you try to play a game with the switches blocked other things will probably not work right.

#5 78 days ago

I'll give that a shot. Is there a good way to identify which which leaf switch I'm looking for?

The schematic above seems to indicate G.B.2 and Grey.Blue.3, and BR.G.4 I think I might be missing something with those codes..

Grey Blue sounds about right... is that what G.B. stands for as well?

IMG_3601 (resized).jpg
#6 78 days ago

I found the color codes on the space mission schematic... Hopefully they are the same for the Space Odyssey version.

#7 78 days ago

I think the wire colors should be the same, but here's the color code from Space Odyssey:
Space Odyssey wire color (resized).jpg
Wires usually have one, two or three colors which could be specified on the schematic spelled out (e.g. grey-blu) or abbreviated (e.g. br-g). An optional number at the end indicates multiple uses of the same color. So br-g-4 would be in a different circuit than, and electrically isolated from br-g-3, or br-g.

#8 77 days ago

I made some progress with the paper blocking switches.

When I block this leaf switch on the Extra Ball relay, (see the attached image) the game resets great! Everything acts as it should during the reset.

Player 1, ball one... press start again, and Player 2, ball one.... Press it again and nothing happens.

If I I take the paper out at this point the game places perfectly all the way through each ball... If I leave the paper in, the ball drain never recognizes and you cannot advance ball or next player.

Must be getting close.

IMG_3603 (resized).jpg
#9 77 days ago
Quoted from zimmer62:

When I block this leaf switch on the Extra Ball relay, (see the attached image) the game resets great!

Ok, so we can eliminate the two lower parts of the circuit. The problem(s) must be in the red box:
Space Odyssey Ball Index relay 2 (resized).jpg
Somehow current is running from the yellow wire on the left through the Extra Ball relay switch to fire the Ball Index relay. You need to figure out how that's happening.

One of the switches on the 10 point, 100 point or 1000 point relays may be stuck closed or shorted somehow. Shut off the power, set your multimeter to the lowest resistance setting and clip the probes to the brown-green and grey-red wires on either side of one of those three switches. I suspect you'll measure just an ohm or so between those two wires which means that they're shorted together. You can use the folded paper trick on those three switches to see if you can get the resistance to be higher, maybe 10-15 ohms or more which would mean the wires are no longer shorted together.

Once you've sorted out and fixed one of the three switches, you need to figure out where the connection is between those switches and the yellow wire on the left. It could be that there's a short to a yellow wire on one of the 10, 100 or 1000 point relays, or it could be that your Bonus Unit is stuck in one of the positions (1 or 2) that lets current pass from the yellow wire to the grey-red wire.

#10 76 days ago

No luck yet I was unable to find anything wrong with the 10, 100, or 1000 switches. I've looked over the machine a few times for shorts, and checked the jones plugs again.

I've got a couple questions regarding the start of this game.

1) Should the ball index be locked energized during / after the reset, or is it supposed to do that after the first points?
2) Should the bonus start on 1000, or should it start at zero?

What I'm noticing on my bonus stepper, is that it resets to zero during the reset procedure, and then advances one. That advance 1 happens at the same moment the machine switches to ball 2.

#11 76 days ago
Quoted from zimmer62:

I was unable to find anything wrong with the 10, 100, or 1000 switches. I've looked over the machine a few times for shorts

Did you use a meter or just check visually?

Quoted from zimmer62:

1) Should the ball index be locked energized during / after the reset, or is it supposed to do that after the first points?

I don't think the Ball Index relay should fire until the 10, 100 or 1000 point relay fires. None of those should fire during reset.

Quoted from zimmer62:

2) Should the bonus start on 1000, or should it start at zero?

Online videos show that the bonus steps down to zero, then back up to 1000 at about the same time the ball is kicked into the shooter lane.

So given that the Bonus Unit steps to the 1000 point (or #1) position at the start of a ball, that provides a path from the yellow wire on the left of the schematic to the grey-red wire on the other side of the Bonus Unit. There should be no electrical path from that grey-red wire to the brown-green wire until you launch the ball and score 10, 100 or 1000 points. I'm pretty sure you have a maladjusted switch or short between the grey-red and brown-green wires.

#12 76 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Did you use a meter or just check visually?

I used a meter... I just did it again and double checked.

Quoted from MarkG:

I don't think the Ball Index relay should fire until the 10, 100 or 1000 point relay fires. None of those should fire during reset.

The Ball Index is firing.

Quoted from MarkG:

There should be no electrical path from that grey-red wire to the brown-green wire until you launch the ball and score 10, 100 or 1000 points. I'm pretty sure you have a maladjusted switch or short between the grey-red and brown-green wires.

I'm going to keep looking in this area.

#13 75 days ago

Does the Ball Index relay relax after the ball is kicked to the shooter lane? If not, maybe you could poke around and see if you can make it relax by slipping paper between switches, etc. Only do this if you're comfortable and know what you're doing poking around a game with the power on. If not, don't try.

#14 72 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

Does the Ball Index relay relax after the ball is kicked to the shooter lane?

No it doesn't... It stays energized until gameover

I'm comfortable poking around. I'm almost wondering if I should take a step back forgetting what I know and trying to diagnose again.

I feel like the ball index being on before points scored is going to be the key. I check the 10, 100, 1000 points relays and switches again with meter and couldn't find anything weird.

#15 69 days ago

Earlier you said that if you use paper to block the switch on the Extra Ball relay that the Ball Index relay doesn't fire, things work better and you can add 2 players. What happens if instead you block all three switches on the 10, 100, & 1000 point relays? Do you get the same behavior? You should.

3 weeks later
#16 48 days ago
Quoted from MarkG:

rlier you said that if you use paper to block the switch on the Extra Ball relay that the Ball Index relay doesn't fire, things work better and you can add 2 players. What happens if instead you block all three switches on the 10, 100, & 1000 point relays? Do you get the same behavior? You should.

I finally have some time to try this... I'll go check it now and report back.

#17 48 days ago

I did not get the same behavior when blocking all of the switches on the 10,100 and 1000 point relays.

I did try the first few steps again and found that the tilt relay switch if I block that the ball index does not stay locked on.... I'm going to work backwards from there and check the outhole relay and switches again.

#18 47 days ago
Quoted from zimmer62:

I did try the first few steps again and found that the tilt relay switch if I block that the ball index does not stay locked on.... I'm going to work backwards from there and check the outhole relay and switches again.

So if you block the red Tilt relay switch from the schematic in reply #2 things work better? I don't think the Tilt relay should fire nor should that switch close. If the Tilt relay is firing we'll need to sort out why.

#19 47 days ago

Okay... So I have the machine playing 100%, but I'm not sure why it's 100%

I have paper blocking a switch on the tilt relay, and another piece of paper blocking a switch on the ball index relay. If I remove either one, the opposite relay trips and the game doesn't work right, but with both in there I honestly can't find anything that doesn't work/play as expected.

IMG_0540 (resized).JPGIMG_0541 (resized).JPG
#20 47 days ago
Quoted from zimmer62:

I have paper blocking a switch on the tilt relay, and another piece of paper blocking a switch on the ball index relay. If I remove either one, the opposite relay trips and the game doesn't work right, but with both in there I honestly can't find anything that doesn't work/play as expected.

There may be a couple of things wrong. Your photo of the Tilt relay shows that you've blocked the normally open switch with a yellow wire on one tab. That's the Tilt relay switch circled in red in the Ball Index circuit below:
Space Odyssey Ball Index relay 3 (resized).jpg
Either that switch isn't opening, or the Tilt relay is firing. Either way that would cause your Ball Index relay to fire.

The other blocked switch in your Ball Index relay photo is harder to identify but it looks like the normally closed switch in the red box that connects the white-black wire to the yellow-red wire. If removing you blocking paper from that switch causes your Tilt relay to fire, have a look at the Spinner Lane Rollover switch in the first red box that connects the yellow and white-black wires. That could be stuck closed or shorted.

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
950 (OBO)
Machine - For Sale
State College, PA
$ 29.95
Gameroom - Decorations
ULEKstore
$ 8.00
Cabinet Parts
RPGCor
$ 48.00
Cabinet - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 79.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 48.00
Cabinet - Other
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 7.50
Playfield - Decals
Bright Lights Pinball
From: $ 42.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
ModFather Pinball Mods
$ 20.00
$ 59.00
From: $ 7.60
Cabinet Parts
PinBoltCaps
From: $ 24.99
Lighting - Led
Lee's Parts
$ 69.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
$ 149.00
$ 239.00
Cabinet - Toppers
Tilttopper
$ 244.99
$ 5,799.00
Pinball Machine
Operation Pinball
$ 149.00
Displays
Boston Pinball Company
$ 24.00
Playfield - Other
Pin Monk
From: $ 217.00
$ 6.00
$ 49.99
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
Lighted Pinball Mods
From: $ 11.95
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
ULEKstore

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside