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» Space Mission 'Same Player Shoots' Again Always On

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Space Mission 'Same Player Shoots' Again Always On

By Knxwledge

5 years ago

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Latest reply 4 years ago by Knxwledge
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Space Mission Williams, 1976

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#1 5 years ago

DNH

Knxwledge

Pinside member

Ramona, CA

5y 81,300 1,892 11 8 1

Tried researching the topic on similar machines to my own but couldn't find any topic that detailed my problem. When I start the game up, the 'Same Player Shoots Again' head light is always on. Looked at the Extra Ball relay, and none of the contacts are stuck together. When I push some of the contacts together on that relay manually, the bulbs get *slightly* brighter. This to me would mean that the coil works, but there's a wiring issue somewhere away from the coil? I'm honestly not sure, just making an educated guess. Any help appreciated.

#2 5 years ago

TPC

tommycrum

Pinside member

Largo, FL

10y 38,650 184 5 6

look at the score motor i think there is a switch in one of the last 2 or 3 stack that make it work a gentle push on each worked for me to find the one that need fine adjustment
tommycrum

#3 5 years ago

TPC

tommycrum

Pinside member

Largo, FL

10y 38,650 184 5 6

it;s the b switch on the inpulse sw forward should be the top one

#4 5 years ago

TPC

tommycrum

Pinside member

Largo, FL

10y 38,650 184 5 6

Score_Motor_Assignments (resized).png

#5 5 years ago

HOW

HowardR

Pinside member

Boulder, CO

7y 78,050 6,257

What happens if you put paper between the contacts of this switch?

Pinball (resized).png

#6 5 years ago

LSW

Runbikeskilee

Pinside member

8y 43,150 722 10

So, the same player shoots again (SPSA) lamp in the backglass is lighting, but not the one on the playfield down near the flippers? That's odd because both lamp circuits are wired in parallel to the M/B switch in the extra ball relay. Any current through that circuit should light the lamps in both places. Could the bulb under the playfield SPSA insert be burned out?

On the extra ball relay, did you check the tab ends of the M/B switch where the wires are soldered on? A slight touch of the tabs or wires there can be similar to having the switch be closed. Also clean the sides of the bakelite insulators to make sure there is not a micro splash of solder or something which might be shorting the switchblades themselves at the insulators.

Lee

#7 5 years ago

???

currieddog

Pinside member

Springfield, MA

7y 63,550 3,312 6

I had that randomly happening and it turned out to be a short. You'll have to root through everything that's involved.

#8 5 years ago

DNH

Knxwledge

Pinside member

Ramona, CA

5y 81,300 1,892 11 8 1

Ok so I had time to look at it today.

The bulb on the playfield was very dim so I replaced it, and when I was doing so I noticed a jumper wire connected from the light to the metal that's stapled along the underside of the playfield. When undoing this wire, the SPSA bulb stops working entirely.

Im not sure what I did, but now the only SPSA light that stays on constantly is the playfield one, NOT the one on the head, unless I do the following:

When I push the top contacts together on the extra ball relay, they lock together and the light switches from the playfield to the head. When I push the second to last 2 contacts together, they switch the light, but do not lock in place. Attached are pics of what Im talking about.

Im going to clean the bakelight insulators on the extra ball relay. Ive been using rubbing alcohol and a toothbrush. Is this good?

20190404_155949 (resized).jpg

20190404_160337 (resized).jpg

20190404_160351 (resized).jpg

Screenshot_20190404-162546_Snapchat (resized).jpg

#9 5 years ago

???

pinworks

Pinside apprentice

Taylorsville, NC

11y 14,150 26 1

Reconnect everything.

Tighten the screws on the switch pack on the Extra Ball Relay. They look loose?
If that does not fix the problem:
On the Extra Ball Relay, desolder the wire going to the SPSA light. That is the switch on the top make/break that closes when the coil pulls in.
Turn the game on.
If the SPSA is still on, you have a short in the wiring. It looks like the wire goes to the backbox and then runs back to the playfield. This based on the
pictures. There is one wire connected to the relay switch. There are two wires attached to both poles of the backbox light. There is one wire attached
to the playfield light. This assumes that the pictures posted are of the correct light sockets. I am confused by the fact that both backbox pictures show
both legs of the light sockets attached to bare metal wires that lead to other lights. Do more than one light come on in the backbox when the SPSA
should be lit? What other bulbs are on that circuit?
Anyway, I would disconnect one of the white green wires. If both SPSA lights go out, disconnect the other wire and reconnect the first. If both SPSA
lights come on, the short is in the wire that runs between the two lights. If only the backbox comes on, the short is in the wire that runs between the
backbox and the Extra Ball Relay. Replace the wire.
If the SPSA is off, you have a short in the switch pack. Take the switch pack apart and clean it. Put it back together.

Note: Of course the playfield light went out when you removed that wire. Even if everything were working perfectly, removing that wire takes the lamp socket out of circuit.

Good luck

2 weeks later

#10 5 years ago

DNH

Knxwledge

Pinside member

Ramona, CA

5y 81,300 1,892 11 8 1

Quoted from pinworks:
Reconnect everything.
Tighten the screws on the switch pack on the Extra Ball Relay. They look loose?
If that does not fix the problem:
On the Extra Ball Relay, desolder the wire going to the SPSA light. That is the switch on the top make/break that closes when the coil pulls in.
Turn the game on.
If the SPSA is still on, you have a short in the wiring. It looks like the wire goes to the backbox and then runs back to the playfield. This based on the
pictures. There is one wire connected to the relay switch. There are two wires attached to both poles of the backbox light. There is one wire attached
to the playfield light. This assumes that the pictures posted are of the correct light sockets. I am confused by the fact that both backbox pictures show
both legs of the light sockets attached to bare metal wires that lead to other lights. Do more than one light come on in the backbox when the SPSA
should be lit? What other bulbs are on that circuit?
Anyway, I would disconnect one of the white green wires. If both SPSA lights go out, disconnect the other wire and reconnect the first. If both SPSA
lights come on, the short is in the wire that runs between the two lights. If only the backbox comes on, the short is in the wire that runs between the
backbox and the Extra Ball Relay. Replace the wire.
If the SPSA is off, you have a short in the switch pack. Take the switch pack apart and clean it. Put it back together.
Note: Of course the playfield light went out when you removed that wire. Even if everything were working perfectly, removing that wire takes the lamp socket out of circuit.
Good luck

Was this the wire that you wanted me to desolder from the Extra Ball Relay to check for a short? After doing so the make-break relay doesnt lock together, but the SPSA light is still on on the playfield.

I also desoldered the 2 white-green wires from the backbox. When the one leading to the relay is disconnected, the one leading to the playfield stays on until I touch the makebreak switch together (before i desoldered that switch on the switch pack).

Based on this I think I have a short in the wire leading from the SPSA playfield light to the backbox?
20190418_182351 (resized).jpg

6 months later

#11 4 years ago

DNH

Knxwledge

Pinside member

Ramona, CA

5y 81,300 1,892 11 8 1

Bumping this back up because I've recently started working on this project again and I'm still facing SPSA issues. Where I'm at right now: When cab is initially turned on, the playfield SPSA light is on. Starting a game doesn't change this. When engaging the ex. ball relay, the playfield SPSA light turns off, and the backglass one turns on. I tried cleaning and tightening the switch stack on the score motor associated with SPSA. When it's lifted without the ex. ball relay engaged, nothing happens. When I engage the ex. ball relay and lift the switch on the score motor, the light alternates between the playfield and the backglass. When the ex. ball relay is engaged, it gets pretty hot. Any help is appreciated. This one has me really scratching my head...

#12 4 years ago

DNH

Knxwledge

Pinside member

Ramona, CA

5y 81,300 1,892 11 8 1

I realize that I may have not been clear enough. SPSA is ALWAYS active, not just the light. This messes with the logic of the ball in play, etc. I've tried looking at the schematics for any instance of the phrase "Extra Ball" and it looks like all switches connected to the relay are adjusted properly.

#13 4 years ago

DCR

DCRand

Pinside+ Frequent

7y 74,050 1,355 15

OP
Quoted from Knxwledge:
I realize that I may have not been clear enough. SPSA is ALWAYS active, not just the light. This messes with the logic of the ball in play, etc. I've tried looking at the schematics for any instance of the phrase "Extra Ball" and it looks like all switches connected to the relay are adjusted properly.

I know this may be a really basic question. But are you certain that the switch(s) that trigger an SPSA are open when they should be open? and that the wires on the back of the switch aren't touching. It sounds less like a short, and more like a closed switch.

Post last edited 4 years ago: “spelling error ”

#14 4 years ago

rolf_martin_062

Inactive member

Aarau

9y 59,550 4,150 14 8

Hi Knxwledge
I am not sure about Your description in post-11. Here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=14407&zoom=1 below, between the flipper-bats is the "Shoot Again (Playfield) Lite" - in the ipdb-picture it is unlit. Here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=2145 (actually we do not see it in the ipdb-picture) on the bottom, middle is the "Shoot Again (Insert) Lite". Here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=14406&zoom=1 on top, middle we see (unlit in the ipdb-picture) the "Top Center Rollover Lite" with the invitation-text "HERE, WHEN LIT You can make an Extraball". See the first JPG --- first we must make the "Top Center Rollover Lite" lighted --- then when the ball rolls through the "lane at this invitation lite" - the Extraball-Relay is made to pull-in - the switch on the relay is moved - the invitation lite turns off and the two "Shoot Again Lite" light up - always both at the same time.
Just to entertain us: Williams mounted a switch on the Impulse-Cam - whenever the Score-Motor does run: Lighted lamp does somewhat "flicker" - somewhat flashing like an 455-flashing bulb.

See the second JPG - complicated wiring on the Extraball-Relay --- in post-11 You do mention "strange behaviour when playfield is lifted / up / lowered / down" - for me the first question to answer is "when does the Extraball-Relay pull ?" See my drawing of two lamps (in series) - mounted to the coil on Extraball-Relay --- whenever current flows to the coil: Lamps do light.
I call the two lamps "SteveFury-Test-Light" - two cheap 12Volt-car-bulbs wired "one behind the other" - 12Volt plus 12Volt sum up to 24Volt --- a very handy testing tool. Have long wires on the SteveFury-Test-Light" - clip on at the coil on Extraball-Relay --- long wires (on the Test-Light) coming out of through the open Coin-Door so You can see when the Extraball-Relay (mounted on the mech. panel in the cabinet) is pulling / non-pulling as the SteveFury-Test-Light is lit / unlit.

With the Test-Light mounted do toggle-on the pin - start a game - do lift the playfield - have lifted - do lower the playfield - do combinations of toggling on (playfield lifted or down) - then write about the behaviour of the Extraball-Relay (Test-Light) in Your Space Mission. Greetings Rolf

0Sp-Mi-Work-36 (resized).jpg

0Sp-Mi-Work-37 (resized).jpg

#15 4 years ago

DNH

Knxwledge

Pinside member

Ramona, CA

5y 81,300 1,892 11 8 1

Quoted from rolf_martin_062:
Hi Knxwledge
I am not sure about Your description in post-11. Here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=14407&zoom=1 below, between the flipper-bats is the "Shoot Again (Playfield) Lite" - in the ipdb-picture it is unlit. Here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=2145 (actually we do not see it in the ipdb-picture) on the bottom, middle is the "Shoot Again (Insert) Lite". Here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=14406&zoom=1 on top, middle we see (unlit in the ipdb-picture) the "Top Center Rollover Lite" with the invitation-text "HERE, WHEN LIT You can make an Extraball". See the first JPG --- first we must make the "Top Center Rollover Lite" lighted --- then when the ball rolls through the "lane at this invitation lite" - the Extraball-Relay is made to pull-in - the switch on the relay is moved - the invitation lite turns off and the two "Shoot Again Lite" light up - always both at the same time.
Just to entertain us: Williams mounted a switch on the Impulse-Cam - whenever the Score-Motor does run: Lighted lamp does somewhat "flicker" - somewhat flashing like an 455-flashing bulb.
See the second JPG - complicated wiring on the Extraball-Relay --- in post-11 You do mention "strange behaviour when playfield is lifted / up / lowered / down" - for me the first question to answer is "when does the Extraball-Relay pull ?" See my drawing of two lamps (in series) - mounted to the coil on Extraball-Relay --- whenever current flows to the coil: Lamps do light.
I call the two lamps "SteveFury-Test-Light" - two cheap 12Volt-car-bulbs wired "one behind the other" - 12Volt plus 12Volt sum up to 24Volt --- a very handy testing tool. Have long wires on the SteveFury-Test-Light" - clip on at the coil on Extraball-Relay --- long wires (on the Test-Light) coming out of through the open Coin-Door so You can see when the Extraball-Relay (mounted on the mech. panel in the cabinet) is pulling / non-pulling as the SteveFury-Test-Light is lit / unlit.
With the Test-Light mounted do toggle-on the pin - start a game - do lift the playfield - have lifted - do lower the playfield - do combinations of toggling on (playfield lifted or down) - then write about the behaviour of the Extraball-Relay (Test-Light) in Your Space Mission. Greetings Rolf[quoted image][quoted image]

Rolf, thank you. My post #11 was was when I thought I only had a problem with the lights, so it's not really relevant anymore. I will give this a shot when I have the chance, and create that testing tool as well. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. And I did see pic 2 in the schematic but I had trouble understanding it. Thanks for breaking it down. I will report back when I have the chance to work on it again.

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