(Topic ID: 57832)

space mission help please

By tommycrum

10 years ago


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  • 59 posts
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  • Latest reply 10 years ago by tommycrum
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There are 59 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 10 years ago

ok start a game runs does not start
outhole relay keeps clicking and no bonus if I click the advance relay it stops
any help please there is a lot wrong here but I think it mostly switch adjustments

#2 10 years ago

ok question 2 are the coin and ball units the same on the gear side mine look almost the same
thanks for any info

#3 10 years ago

Paging Steve Fury.......Paging Steve Fury.........

#4 10 years ago

First off Steve is many times better at this than me so if he responds you will be great,

Second, I am on travel so not in front of my machine or schematic so this is all from my head, but the first 2 relays that have to be operating flawlessly are the Coin Relay and the Game Over Relay.

First the lock relay needs to be energized. Or you won't get power anywhere.

Then as long as there are credits on the wheel or the game is set for free play then when the credit button is pushed the coin relay should energize which will in turn cause the end of game relay to latch.

This will allow signal to flow through the coin stepper, reset relay, and score motor which work to reset all of the score wheels.

If you go in ipdb you can get the manual for the Space Mission and the exact start up sequence is in there which will tell you what has to occur in what order.

Good luck and stay in touch. I will be home tomorrow and can help you out.

Bert

#5 10 years ago

Check the bonus unit

#6 10 years ago

Hi tommycrum.

If I understand correctly, you can put credits on the machine and press the start/replay button located on the front of the cabinet... and all the score reels zero out, then the ball return cycles continuously even with no ball present in the hole. Is that right? If so then check the outhole switch itself underneath the PF.

I've made an animation showing the start-up sequence here:

Please let me ask how are you with reading and understanding schematics.

#7 10 years ago

ok first thank you all for the input
steve I can read a schematic well understanding of them is limited I have
trouble isolating the seperate circuits

I watched your video and I see the step bonus unit isn't getting activated by the cam 3a I think
will go now and check that switch on the cam
thanks
I hope you don't give up on me I need a lot of help

#8 10 years ago

ok follow up
motor switches were good found that the outhole relay was not making the m/b switch to bonus step up unit it now puts the bonus up

still no start
pushing start the first time now makes the coin and reset relays flicker but not stay on
pushing the start button again will do the same until the 3 4 time it does nothing

if I manualy activate the coin unit it will rest to player 1 ball one
stays on ball 1 player one after ball drain

#9 10 years ago

Tommy:
"still no start
pushing start the first time now makes the coin and reset relays flicker but not stay on
pushing the start button again will do the same until the 3 4 time it does nothing
if I manualy activate the coin unit it will rest to player 1 ball one
stays on ball 1 player one after ball drain "

The Coin and Reset relays **must not** flicker. We can disregard the coin unit and ball count issues for now. Get those two relays operating properly first.

I made the chain of events, you can follow the progress in the colored lines of my pic.

1. Pushing the front cabinet credit button pulls in the Credit Unit Reset solenoid through the switches within the red line.
2. The Credit Unit Reset solenoid mashes its 3-blade EOS switch together. The Coin Relay goes ON through this 3-bladed EOS, and through all of the switches in the red line.
3. The Score Motor begins to rotate through Coin Relay. Blue line.
4. Since the red lined circuit will quickly drop off, the Coin Relay is held in by Motor Cam 5B indicated in the pink line.

Cam 5 is the last cam to operate in the Score Motor sequence, so the Coin Relay must remain ON until then. Not flicker.

5. (Green line) the Reset Relay went ON when the Coin Relay energized, through the Game Over relay.
6. (Light Blue line) The Reset relay is held ON until all the score reels have zeroed out and the Bonus Relay goes off.

First start with your flickering Coin Relay. Inspect/clean/gap all the switches in my schematic's red, yellow and pink lines.

Once you've solved the flickering Coin Relay issue then you may find the Reset Relay is also working properly. The Reset Relay should stay on until the whole reset sequence is finished, then drop off.

The sequence of repair now should be (1) Coin Relay operation (2) Reset Relay operation (3) Everything else

If you have the manual which originally came with the machine then you can locate specific switch contacts on each relay for what they do.

Schematic_1.jpgSchematic_1.jpg Credit_Unit.jpgCredit_Unit.jpg

#10 10 years ago

thanks steve
ok Im gonna take the credit ball and coin units apart completely
didn't want to but they need it
seems slugish looks like metal sleeves will put plastic
steve do u have a parts list for this I use pbr also

#11 10 years ago

If you're going for a refurb/rebuild for the whole machine then I recommend resleeving the whole machine, especially if you have those old aluminum sleeves. I have a parts list somewhere that I ordered from PBR, but I bet PBR have a listing for all the sleeves if you call them.

#12 10 years ago

ok just got my new sodering gun
gonna take the credit unit out first
will take pics but was wondering if steve furry had a pic he could send me of one that is in good working order ? or anyone else that has one handy for reference

#13 10 years ago

Im going to start didging into my space mission this afternoon Woot Woot.

#14 10 years ago

ok follow up here is a pic of my credit unit

#15 10 years ago

ok follow up here is a pic of my credit unit

#16 10 years ago

ok follow up here is a pic of my credit unit

credit_unit.JPGcredit_unit.JPG

#17 10 years ago

does it look normal ?

#18 10 years ago
Quoted from tommycrum:

anyone else that has one handy for reference

Lube all pivot points except the coil plungers/sleeves (clean and dry only). Disconnect reset (torsion)return spring and count the revolutions,sharpie the count on the unit.

Williams_4_(2).jpgWilliams_4_(2).jpg

#19 10 years ago
Quoted from tommycrum:

coin units apart completely

Reference Just in case.... (coin unit)

Williams_stepper_unit_Illustration.JPGWilliams_stepper_unit_Illustration.JPG

#20 10 years ago

Hi Tommy:
Here's a photo of my credit unit. You mentioned a new soldering gun with an intent to take things out. If it were mine I wouldn't unsolder a bunch of stuff. (If that's your plan) If I need to remove something like a stepper then I remove the two screws securing the switch stack from the bracket, remove the stack and wrap it in a bit of tape to hold it together until reassembly.

That's after taking a ton of digital images first from all conceivable angles.
Good you got the soldering gun. Williams games of this era are notorious for cold solder joints breaking off from their lugs.

Credit.jpgCredit.jpg

#21 10 years ago

follow up
parts ordered from pbr
got the credit unit out and cleaned
took main board out to make it easier on my back
thanks steve I put the screws back in the switches and hanging there for assembly

#22 10 years ago

follow up
steve I would like to remake the tags on the main board any sugestions
and I don't see any diagram for the end of game relay
if you could let me know about the switches
also look all of the switches all look gapped well
thanks

#23 10 years ago

here r the pics of the main board I took today any comments welcome

#24 10 years ago

here's another try

IMG_0001.jpgIMG_0001.jpg IMG_0002.jpgIMG_0002.jpg IMG_0003.jpgIMG_0003.jpg IMG_0004.jpgIMG_0004.jpg IMG_0005.jpgIMG_0005.jpg IMG_0006.jpgIMG_0006.jpg

#25 10 years ago

here r the rest

IMG_0007.jpgIMG_0007.jpg IMG_0008.jpgIMG_0008.jpg IMG_0009.jpgIMG_0009.jpg IMG_0010.jpgIMG_0010.jpg IMG_0011.jpgIMG_0011.jpg IMG_0012.jpgIMG_0012.jpg

#26 10 years ago

ok last 2 sorry for so many

IMG_0013.jpgIMG_0013.jpg IMG_0014.jpgIMG_0014.jpg

#27 10 years ago
Quoted from tommycrum:

follow up
steve I would like to remake the tags on the main board any sugestions
and I don't see any diagram for the end of game relay
if you could let me know about the switches
also look all of the switches all look gapped well
thanks

I am not sure what you are requesting?

#28 10 years ago

follow up
steve
I could use a pic of the end of game relay don't have it in any of the paper work I got
so I can set the switches and clean them
and you said you had some nice schematics of space mission and mibs I could use both of those
you should have my email

ok now
ball unit cleaned and working well manually got the main board out so no power to test at this time
coin unit cleaned will step up 3 times but will not reset any ideas
ps
steve I did put new sleeves in both units and the credit unit

#29 10 years ago

follow up
got the coin unit working
step 3 and reset yea
ok
working on the score motor
question 1
how are the switches set in the start position
are they in the up position meaning not in the notch
i'm taking the stacks out 1 by 1 starting with the index closes to the motor
and I think they are in the opposite state they don't seem to match the schematic
I went through the schematic and wrote down each switch from the motor the ones in the circles
I am leaving the stacks together moving each down on the screw to separate them to clean each switch

help please

#30 10 years ago

The score motor operation can be found toward the end of my animation. Scrub the video to 10:00

The machine originally came with a manual and schematic. Sometimes they stay with the machine sometimes not. http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?gid=2253 has some paperwork to download.

I am not sure what you're asking about the game over relay, but this is from the manual:
Screenshot_(35).jpgScreenshot_(35).jpg
The schematic has the score motor assignments. I just sent you the schematic now. Sorry for the delay. I would not remove score motor switch stacks unless there's a major failure or for cosmetic cleaning/frame repair. The only time I'd remove them is after the rest of the machine is verified working 100% so I know where to look if something doesn't work after I'm done. The stacks don't need to be unscrewed to clean the switches.

Score_Motor_Assignments.jpgScore_Motor_Assignments.jpg

#31 10 years ago

One thing I did was to reprint the credit adjustment plug labels. It makes the board look a lot better and easier to adjust. You can see my original ones were barely readable. I simply sized out the prints on a piece of plain copy paper, then I sprayed several coats of clear lacquer on both sides of the paper to stiffen them up and resist stains/moisture.

20130806_121025.jpg20130806_121025.jpg
Original_labels.jpgOriginal_labels.jpg

#32 10 years ago

Here's a quick video I did of Pinball Basics: How to clean EM contacts:

#33 10 years ago

follow up
thanks steve for the schematics
ok sorry for jumping around but try to fix things I see
ok here is two pics of before and after on the coin unit it has been cleaned and new sleeves put in
I also moved the switch to the top of the lever which I saw on a pic don't remember where
question when is the switch open nc at reset
opens on the second pulse should it be the third
or I think 4th player ?

#34 10 years ago

follow up
thanks steve for the schematics
ok sorry for jumping around but try to fix things I see
ok here is two pics of before and after on the coin unit it has been cleaned and new sleeves put in
I also moved the switch to the top of the lever which I saw on a pic don't remember where
question when is the switch open nc at reset
opens on the second pulse should it be the third
or I think 4th player ?

coin_before.JPGcoin_before.JPG

#35 10 years ago

follow up
thanks steve for the schematics
ok sorry for jumping around but try to fix things I see
ok here is two pics of before and after on the coin unit it has been cleaned and new sleeves put in
I also moved the switch to the top of the lever which I saw on a pic don't remember where
question when is the switch open nc at reset
opens on the second pulse should it be the third
or I think 4th player ?

coin_before.JPGcoin_before.JPG coin_after.JPGcoin_after.JPG

#36 10 years ago

The switch is on the wrong side of the actuator. You can also see how unnaturally the blades in the top pic are bent over. That's a sign something is wrong with the way its assembled.
That switch is the Coin Unit last position Break Switch. When the rotor is in the 4 player game position then that is where the switch should be open. You can manually operate the reset solenoid and the rotor will rotate to a 1 player game. Manually operate the step up solenoid 3 times and the unit is set for a 4 player game, and that is where the switch should open. It must be closed while the unit is set for a 1,2 or 3 player game.

We also know this by how it's drawn on the schematic:

Screenshot_(36).pngScreenshot_(36).png

IMG_4186.JPGIMG_4186.JPG

#37 10 years ago

follow up
thanks that's what I thought
ok now I have adjusted it to where it opens on the 3 pulse
because I think it's reset position is set to one player
let me know if that is correct

I think the coin unit is in very good working order now

on to the ball count unit I think it's the one right next to it
no tag on it
it has been cleaned and new sleeves put in
but I don't think the switch is right because the bottom switch never opens I think it should
if so i will adjust it to open on the first pulse
please let me know
here is a pic of it
I think that is the last issue with that unit and it will be done

#38 10 years ago

follow up
thanks that's what I thought
ok now I have adjusted it to where it opens on the 3 pulse
because I think it's reset position is set to one player
let me know if that is correct

I think the coin unit is in very good working order now

on to the ball count unit I think it's the one right next to it
no tag on it
it has been cleaned and new sleeves put in
but I don't think the switch is right because the bottom switch never opens I think it should
if so i will adjust it to open on the first pulse
please let me know
here is a pic of it
I think that is the last issue with that unit and it will be done

IMG_0005.JPGIMG_0005.JPG

#39 10 years ago

Both switches should be open in home position, so the bottom switch in your photo should be open not closed.

Please let me be a friendly critic, I noticed a couple potential trouble spots in your photo.

1. (Top arrow) There's a broken Bakelite spacer. The contact blade is bent upward and could eventually make contact with the frame. The frame is not electrically neutral, its circuit is part of the rotor finger circuit. If the bent blade comes in contact with the frame it can either blow a fuse or cause strange, very difficult problems to diagnose. Some weird thing like when the game gets to player 2 the kicker keeps kicking. (I don't know if that would be the specific symptom, just an example).
The fix would be to replace the spacer. It will provide support for the blade and keep it insulated. If it were mine I'd also straighten out the bent blades since I have it apart.

2. (Bottom arrow) The Faston screw plate is originally made to form an arch so the springiness of the metal, along with the wedge shape of the tabs keep the switch stack tight.
The bottom plate in the photo appears to be upside down which may allow the stack to work itself loose. The plate looks a bit mangled, if it were mine I'd order a new screw plate with the Bakelite spacer.

It's these little details to catch which can make all the difference in the world when it comes to reliability and future diagnostics. Hope you don't mind me saying, just some observations.

IMG_0005.JPGIMG_0005.JPGStack.jpgStack.jpg

#40 10 years ago

no steve they are welcome that's why we ask you all the questions
i thank you !

#41 10 years ago

follow up
steve will fix those problems as suggested but on a new note
i also have a bad contact on one of the score motor stacks #3 i think
5th rell on the score motor
its on the c switch top it works checked with meter but i'm not liking leaving it as is
as you said i'm there fix it i will be putting a pic in for you to see but could use info on how to do this
also send a pic of the spacers i have never done anything like this but can just use help
second pic is of the spacers any info you have on them is helpful
are they the same ones from pbr ?

IMG_0001.JPGIMG_0001.JPG IMG_0001.JPGIMG_0001.JPG

#42 10 years ago

I would call PBR talk to Steve @ 845-473-7114 and tell him what you need in parts.

A contact is bad if it's burned away or missing. I don't see any burned or missing contacts in your photos. Unless you have some other reason to disassemble the score motor switch stacks then I would keep them together else by fixing them create more problems. If you're looking for suggestions I made a video to show you how to clean them... and that's as far as I'd go.

I'd leave the stacks together, keep them screwed down onto their steel base and work each stack at a time. I'd give each contact a quick scrub with a flex stone or small fine steel file as shown in the video then rotate the cam slowly by hand and observe the open/closing of each contact on the stack you're working on to make sure it is operating correctly. If it is out of adjustment I'll change it with a point adjustment tool and make it right.
**Chances are no adjustments are necessary at all.**

It takes just a couple minutes to do each stack, then move onto the next one in the line. There's no meter involved, no screwdriver to unscrew anything and the whole score motor can be done in short order.
That's the beauty of in-line switches like that. A careful scrub scrub scrub with a file, rotate and observe the operation and move on to the next.

#43 10 years ago

For the Bakelite separators > http://www.pbresource.com/pfswitch.htm#common
Also not sure what happened to your drive spring but KT-WSTEP-01 here too > http://www.pbresource.com/springkit.html

#44 10 years ago

follow up

thanks pi-it ordered the parts still waiting hope they come today

ok
the score motor and all the wheels and contacts are cleaned and adjusted
waiting on a few springs and spacers and i think main board is good to go

ok next looked at the flipper assembly very loose
got one apart took the coil stop out and found it to be very loose at the bottom ordered two of those
any help on how to check or redo the flippers any pics would be helpfull
thanks again everyone

#45 10 years ago

oh yea
steve will be taking a few score reels apart could use all the help you have on this
have taken all the ones in the mibs out and cleaned hope williams machines are not to much different lol

#46 10 years ago

oh yea
steve will be taking a few score reels apart could use all the help you have on this
have taken all the ones in the mibs out and cleaned hope williams machines are not to much different lol

Score reel suggestions:
1. Remove the relay board out of the headboard frame (8 or so perimeter screws/Jones plugs) and set the board on a table, component side up on in a convenient place to work.
2. Don't do a few score reels. Service *all* of them. Do them one by one, only moving onto the next when the previous one is done.
3. The e-clips at the arrows in my photo tend to get missing. You'll probably need to take a trip to your local hardware store and buy a few spares.
(My reel in this photo shows evidence of a fire. Burned wiring harness and soot)
4. Take lots of reference photos while they are still together from multiple angles and each step you take as you disassemble them.
5. Be careful when bending the connecting wires/causing stress on the solder tabs. Williams are terrible for cold solder joints and it could break loose. Check for cold solder joints before working with the reels.
6. Clean all switch contacts with a fine file. Don't take switch stacks apart unless a contact is missing from a blade, or a blade is broken.

Since the board is out already and it's in a very uniquely comfortable position to work, service the relays, the match unit, credit stepper, player stepper and all other board components. Don't do them all at once but take your sweet time, do them very carefully one by one and double check your work before moving on to the next unit.

My reel steps:
a. Took them all apart (But not at the same time).
b. Mixed up a weak water-dish soap solution and used a toothbrush and small rag to clean all the removable plastic parts. I carefully used a black sharpie pen to touch up the numbers on the reel.

I also wiped the steel parts clean with a rag damp with alcohol or Napthia for the difficult areas.

c. Wiped the bakelite contacts clean with rubbing alcohol. I used Napthia for the more difficult crud. I put a *very thin* layer of teflon grease on the contacts, in the area which is wiped. I did the same for the rotor contacts themselves.
d. I reassembled the unit and checked the mechanical operation.
e. I cleaned the EOS and reel position switches.
f. I double-checked the mechanical operation, particularly the reel position switches. Step "f" is the most critical step there is.
g. Put the reel back in its slot and checked for cold solder joints.
Done. Move onto the next reel.
It took me all day to do every score reel. They should -all- be trouble free for many years.

Here's also a switch operation thing I made a while back for reference:

IMG_4315.JPGIMG_4315.JPG WilliamsReel.gifWilliamsReel.gif

#47 10 years ago

follow up
ok all fixes done to main board haven't done the score reels yet
want to see if the thing will fire up
will be doing that today i think

#48 10 years ago

ok put the main board back in
first the coin door is humming if i put the 8 pin jones plug in second plug from the right bottom
second without the plug in
start a game everything resets then it advances the ball to the second ball HELP
was hoping for better but will have to go from here
thanks for any help

#49 10 years ago

Tommycrum: Observe the operation of the Ball Count unit when you start a game. I am assuming the Ball Count unit reset solenoid is pulsed, as it should. Notice if the Ball Count unit step-up solenoid pulses.

* If the step-up solenoid DOES NOT pulse and the back glass says it's ball #2 then the Ball Count unit is not resetting all the way to ball #1.
Either something is preventing the rotor from turning all the way back to the ball #1 position or the coiled tension spring is not strong enough to turn it all the way there.

*If the Ball Count Unit resets all the way to ball #1 but then the add solenoid pulses to ball #2 then the Ball Index relay is very likely stuck closed. You can see the path the circuit takes on the schematic:

Screenshot_(77).jpgScreenshot_(77).jpg
Index.jpgIndex.jpg

Explanation:

The purpose of the Ball Index Relay is so the machine knows if the player has scored a point. It is latched on when any one of the 10's,100's or 1000's relays are triggered by a PF switch.
You can notice in a normal working game that you can drop the ball into the Outhole, then pick it back up out of the shooting lane and drop it right back into the Outhole without scoring anything and it will not advance to the next ball or player.
That's because a score is required to latch the Index relay, and you can see in the schematic that without the Index relay latched it won't complete the circuit to the Ball Count step-up solenoid or advance the Player Unit.
If the Ball Index switch is stuck closed the game thinks a point has been scored and advances the ball count unit whenever the Outhole Relay goes on during the cycle. Even for the initial game start-up reset sequence.

The Ball Index relay latching circuit is opened and it goes OFF again after the ball drains, only to be turned on again for the next first score.

Incidentally, have you noticed that if you operate the spinner lane switch without scoring anything else first, it causes the machine to tilt? That's because the tilt is activated by the spinner lane switch through the Ball Index relay. I guess the designers wanted to ensure operators weren't going to remove the left ball gate and have the shooter plunger send the ball sailing through the spinner. Or maybe to safeguard the game if the left ball gate got stuck open etc.

Imagine the zillions of points you would get if you could plunger-shoot the ball through the lit spinner!

#50 10 years ago

ok thanks steve will look into that
but does the jones plug in the pic the one thats humming the coin door have anything to do with this ? it's not plug in right now

IMG_00017.jpgIMG_00017.jpg

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