(Topic ID: 233123)

Space Mission ball return kickout and score motor issues

By Sea_Wolf

5 years ago


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  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Sea_Wolf
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#1 5 years ago

New old guy here needing help. Just found and bought a really nice Williams Space Mission for a great price. When I got it home and started it up it had a couple of issues (besides needing to replace the worn out flippers, which I’ve ordered new ones). First the game and the scoring reels reset ok but the ball return kickout was struggling to kick ball over to the shooting lane. After 5 or 6 weak sounding attempts, it kicked it over and I played 2 games like that. The next time I hit the start/reset button, the Player 2 10,000 pt reel wouldn’t stop resetting and the Player 4 10 pt reel kept spinning as well. After doing some research on Pinside, I found that the switches for those reels were gapped too close and I adjusted them. That solved that. They both reset to Zero but then there were 2 relays in the back box that wouldn’t stop firing whenever I started a new game and the score motor ( I’m assuming) kept running and the ball return kickout hole stopped firing at all, even when manually engaging the switch. (The sound it made was the same as when the 2 score reels were trying to reset.) One last thing, I noticed after I adjusted the 2 score reel switches, I must have accidentally detached a doubled red wire that goes to a lug near the credit unit. I tried holding it on the lug as I started the game reset but nothing changed. I’m sure I need to solder it back first but right now the same problem exists with the 2 constantly firing relays, the running motor and no ball return kickout power. I’ll take a picture of the loose red wire in the back box when I get home from work. Thanks for any help because I am thrilled to own this machine.

#3 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Check this score motor sw. and/or the make/break on the Outhole relay. And which two relays in the back keep running?
[quoted image][quoted image]

Thanks for the reply, currieddog. I will definitely check the 2 switches you mentioned when I get off work. This bank of 5 relays side by side are not marked (like on my Aladdin’s Castle) but the 2 that keep firing are the 2 relays on the right end of a bank of 5 side by side relays that are at the center/left in the back box. If they were numbered 1-5 from left to right, it would #4 and #5. I should have taken pictures but was running late for work. I will for sure upload some later. Thanks again, I’ll update later today.

#5 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

The two relays are likely 1&2 and 3&4 reset. Look like this? They'll keep trying to reset as long as you have the reel problems.
[quoted image]

I’m going to check when I get home in a couple hours but I think that’s them. The one thing that’s strange (to me) is that the reels are all reset to zeros and no longer spinning but the relays are firing and the ball return kicker is dead. Before it was halfway trying to work. Lots to learn for this amateur but it’s fun. I’ll let you know what I find soon, and thanks.

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Check this score motor sw. and/or the make/break on the Outhole relay. And which two relays in the back keep running?
[quoted image][quoted image]

You were dead on about which relays they are. The outhole relay switches looked like they’re ok (to me). Here’s what happens when you start a game. All the reels are good and reset to all zeros and are not spinning but the 2 relays in the back box keep firing and the score motor keeps running and won’t stop. That, along with the dead ball return kicker. I also included a picture of the detached double red wire that goes to the credit unit.
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#7 5 years ago

Going to send a couple of videos of the issues in a minute

#8 5 years ago

It’s not letting me upload the 2 short videos.

#9 5 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

It’s not letting me upload the 2 short videos but here a closeup of the 2 relays and their switches

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#11 5 years ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Upload the videos to YouTube and put the link in this thread

Gracias!

#14 5 years ago

Wondering what (if any) the correlation is between the videos and the dead ‘ball return kickout’, which was weakly running before.

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

For the ball kickout also check the score motor sw. I pointed out before, 4A, and check these two score motor sw. (the pulse reset) for the running backbox relays. The contacts need to be clean and making well.
[quoted image]

Checking now. Thanks

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

For the ball kickout also check the score motor sw. I pointed out before, 4A, and check these two score motor sw. (the pulse reset) for the running backbox relays. The contacts need to be clean and making well.
[quoted image]

I see the 2 switches you pointed out on the score motor and cleaned them. When I turn the
Power on, those 2 relays reset then stop (as I’m guessing they’re supposed to) then when I hit the game start button, they along with all the other score motor relays keep firing and won’t stop, as the video showed. My question is, are the two switches you pointed out gapped too close, therefore not stopping and energizing the 2 backbox relays non-stop? Thanks

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Check P.7 of the superb manual for the reset operation and make sure everything is doing what it should: https://www.ipdb.org/files/2253/Williams_1976_Space_Mission_Instruction_Manual_Jan_1976_no_schematics.pdf

Ok thanks. I cleaned all the switches on the score motor, outhole relay, and kicker switch but no change.

#22 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea-Wolf
Your Score-Motor runs and runs - and the 1-2- and 3-4-Reset-Relays pulse and pulse --- question: Does the Bonus-Relay pull - stay pulling ? When the Bonus-Unit truely is resetted then "encircled red" switch is open - and so Bonus-Relay does NOT pull.
It is nice that the Score-Drums reset --- means all 16 switches of type "my orange A" are open --- BUT every Score-Drum has another switch 'open at Zero', the "my orange B" --- if just one of these 16 switches (orange B) is faulty closed (when the drum is in pos-Zero): The fault.
Not to forget: 2 times 16 Score-Drums switches are good and the Bonus-Relay is not pulling (and its switch (encircled rosa/pink) is truely open) - but poor us: The Score-Motor-Switch IND-D is faulty and we (You) have the fault. Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Hi Rolf. The switches on the Bonus relay under playfield don’t move at all on power up or start of game. Thanks for weighing in. I’ll wait to see where to go next.

#23 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

That was quick. Go back and check what I added to my last post.

I just cleaned the switches that we specifically talked about. I did read page 7 and that’s definitely helpful. Going to go through the gapping of the said switches in a few minutes. It’s amazing that there were 2 totally mangled switches on the Game over Relay and it seems to function ok.

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#25 5 years ago

So guys.... the index D. Is here? Sorry but I’m a total rookie just starting to learn schematics. And besides checking the score drum switches for a closed one that’s supposed to be open, what do you think is the next move? Thanks for your patience and help.

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#27 5 years ago
Quoted from HowardR:

Index D is on the Score Motor on the bottom board.
[quoted image]

Thanks a bunch HowardR. I’ll start there tomorrow. As green as I am at all this, I can’t help but feel myself learning valuable information during every step thanks to everyone on here. Exasperating fun.

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from Cheddar:

Have you read through the em pinwiki page? It will help you identify the components.

Not yet Cheddar but I appreciate the tip. I’m putting it on the list now. I just got some 455 flasher bulbs for my Nitro Ground Shaker from Lodi CA. Pretty cool.

#31 5 years ago

Will do. Thanks. Going to spend today on this.

#33 5 years ago

Small update:
After absorbing all the advice from you guys and reading some of the literature that you all led me to. I started with the scoring reels and manually stepped up the player one reel by pushing the coil plunger a few times to observe the switches. I then manually stepped up the player 2 and 3 a few times. I then hit the power and started a game. This time the score motor didn’t keep running and the ball kicked to the shooting lane although it took the kicker a few times to kick it over. (When the score motor was continually running before, the ball return kickout was completely dead). I played a game and everything went like it should. I then hit the credit button to start another 1 player game and the player 1 score reel only reset to 00900. The ball kickout then took 5 tries to kick the ball over to the shooting lane and sounded a little weak (to me) in doing so. So..... that’s where I’m at. Maybe this sheds a little more light for you knowledgeable people. I’m reading and proceeding cautiously.

#34 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea_Wolf
You may have a fault in "my orange B, JPG in post-21" - 1 or 2 or 3 ... faulty staying closed Score-Drum-Switch(es)
and / or a fault on "Bonus-Relay / Bonus-Relay-Switch
and / or a fault on Score-Motor-Switch-IND-D. The fault shows up as "Score-Motor endlessly turns, Reset-Relay stays pulling, 1-2-Reset-Relay and 3-4-Reset-Relay do endlessly pulse.
I do not know about "only - and - or" --- it is not fun to have a very good look at all 16 (16!) Score-Drums - inspecting carefully all the switches that open when the Drum reaches ist Zero Position (when starting up).
The following is a test "Is the fault only in 'my orange B' - Yes or No". See here https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=37040&zoom=1 , lower right corner, standing upright (top is top): Jones-Plugs connecting the Insert in the Backbox with the Mech-Panel (M-Panel) in the Cabinet --- connecting the Insert in the Backbox with the Playfield --- (((the pin also has Jones-Plugs connecting Mech-Panel with the Playfield. See the JPG - taken from ipdb-manual the Jones-Plugs - standing upright, top is top. Se "my orange xx, wire of color-blue-brown-1, on position left-8" in the Jones-Plug in the connection "Mech-Panel-Cabinet to Insert-in-the-Backbox" --- due to wire shortages beyond of control of Gottlieb in Your pin there might be a wire of other color: When You unsolder the wire at this pos-left-8 away from the socket on the Jones-Plug - see the JPG, schematics: You cut connection from " 'switches in question' down into cabinet " - You kind of force ALL 16 switches to be open, always open. Please do the unsoldering with Your pin is toggled-off, main power cord is unplugged (Safety Reasons).
The free end of the unsoldered-wire shall not touch metal, so tape the free end on the unsoldered wire. Then plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - does the pin shows EXACTLY the same reaction as before ? Or "other reaction" ? Please write about. Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Thanks a bunch Rolf. I just posted something that happened when I manually stepped up the score reels. I will now slowly try to absorb your newest advice and proceed accordingly. I really appreciate all the help! I’ll update as soon as I can.

#35 5 years ago

Getting crazier by the moment. Played another game and this time the spinning target didn’t move, the extra ball lights and thousand point spinner lights came on way prematurely. I only gently cleaned a few switches yesterday and that’s it. I fear I may have screwed something up much worse now. Also, it’s back to the score motor running nonstop on startup again.

#38 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

I would go back and carefully look at everything you did and make sure nothing is bent, shorting, etc. Gently push the plastic pieces that hold the switches and look closely to make sure they make contact where they ought to and open when they ought to. Don't do anything new til things are sorted out. And stay calm and do your breathing; we've all been there!

Yes the swinging target in the middle. Good advice. Definitely not going to do anything new. I did this again... I manually step up the score reels a few times, the game will reset on startup like it’s supposed to and the score motor doesn’t keep running but some othe things are out of whack. The Spinning Target is not moving and bonus lights are coming on prematurely. Going to retrace my steps now carefully. Thanks

#40 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea_Wolf
a long time ago there was a problem with an "faulty closed 'open-at-Zero' switch on a Score-Drum" - I made an analogy: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/help-with-williams-dealers-choice#post-2541079 --- end of the post was the advice: "Check the two switches 'open at Zero' on all the 16 Score-Drums". My post-32 in here is a test before checking (sigh) all Score-Drum-Switches.
Switzerland (south of Germany), Europe - we are 7, 8, 9, 10 hours ahead of the USA. Not specifically Your topic but in general: I fear "me writing posts - writing posts and with a short offset in time You writing posts - writing posts" --- which writing belongs to which writing, I start writing then have to rewrite due to an new incoming post.
This is my last post for today - soon I will go to sleep. Till tomorrow. Greetings Rolf

Get some sleep Rolf. Thanks for your help. Going to take me some time to learn but I’m determined. This machine is not going to let “me” sleep.

#42 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Sometimes it's good to step back for a bit and think things over. Pins are pretty logical: good contact must be made, bad/poor contact avoided, etc. If something needs to be energized by another thing and isn't, it won't work. If you look at the link in post 30 and read down there is a part about reading schematics. Check that and try to follow some things thru on the schematic. Do something simple to start, like on the 6v. side (lites, on the left). Once you get the concept it's easier.

Dead on.

#44 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea_Wolf
post-35, post-38 --- I am somewhat lost - the "original problem (motor runs endlessly and the 1-2- and 3-4-Reset-Relay endlessy pulse)" - has the "original problem" dissapeared ? Do You have one or more problems when starting a new game ?
The Swinging-Target motor runs on 110VAC, has not a fuse on its own, its hooked-in at primary 10Amp fuse --- Danger !
The Spinning-Target (lane on the left, upwards) is delicate --- the the two halves of the plate (spinning) are weighted - one half is heavier so at rest this half is near the playfield surface. A little rod goes down through the playfield - the rod is hooked-on on a leaf switch --- lift the playfield and try manually.
What is the problem You would like to look at (by now) ? Greetings Rolf

Hi Rolf.
I still have the original problem and have possibly created a couple of new ones. For reference sake, i’ll Start with what the machine was like when I brought it home and what I have tinkered with and what it is currently doing.

When I first started the game up the score reels began to reset and Player 1 and player 4 reels reset perfectly and stopped but the Player 2 and 3 reels kept spinning (Player 2 10,000 point reel and the Player 3 10 Point reel). After turning the power off and back on, they then reset to Zero and stopped and the ball return kicker kicked the ball to the shooting lane, although the kicker sounded weak and it took 4 kicks to get it done. I played a couple of games and everything on the playfield seem to work like they are supposed to, including the Swinging Target in the middle. Then I tried to play another game and when I hit the start button, the 2 score reels that I had problems with before, started doing the same thing as before. They kept spinning. I stopped and read where someone on another thread mentioned that the switches on those 2 reels might be gapped too close causing them to keep running. I probably shouldn’t have but I gently adjusted the 2 switches outward so there was more of a gap and after doing so those 2 reels reset to Zero on the next startup just like they should but that’s when the score motor kept running and the 2 relays (1-2 player reset and 3-4 player reset) kept pulsing nonstop. From there I gently cleaned some switches on the cabinet floor that were possibly involved. Such as the Outhole relay switches, a few score motor switches that were pointed out in a schematic above and on the bonus relay. That’s probably where I added more problems. After that I manually stepped up a couple of the score reels with the power off by pushing the plunger on the coils so I could observe how those switches operate. After doing that I started a game up and everything reset like it is supposed to and no more running score motor or backbox relays. But when I played a ball I noticed now that the Swinging Target in the middle wasn’t moving, the spinner on the left lit up prematurely as did the Extra Ball light at the top. These are the newest problems I’m afraid I created myself,possibly when I cleaned the switches. Also, when the game did reset properly, the ball return kickout to the shooting lane is still struggling to do its job and I checked for obstruction and there is none. That’s where everything stands right now. I can and will take pictures when I get home if that’s needed. And unfortunately Rolf, I haven’t been able to bring any of your well thought out advice to light due to my ineptitude and impatience. Let me know what you think, and thanks again for your help.

#46 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea_Wolf
thanks for the description - the biggest problem by now is the "not running" Swinging Target motor - dead ? or no connection ? or mechanically blocked ?
I happen to have an Space Mission (see my collection) - I lifted the playfield and Yes, there is no fuse for this motor. Well, a couple of days before I made a bulls-eye hit - the ball banged to the swinging target - see https://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=2253&picno=14406&zoom=1 - the red target was in the middle - bang, the ball hit the target and the target moved backwards - AND got caught under the plastic cover (with text "Swinging Target") - hard to believe when looking at the ipdb-picture --- question: Is in Your pin the target caught by the plastic cover ? If Your answer is "No": In the (ipdb) schematics we see "wire-color-blue" and "wire-color-black" run to the solderlugs on the motor. Ask a friend for help - have the pin toggled-off, lift the playfield and secure it lifted. You stare at the axis of the motor - Your friend toggles on the pin then presses the Replay / Start-Button - the Start-up begins --- You stare at the axis of the motor - do You see a bit of movement, little bit of turning ?
If Your answer is "Yes": Toggle-off the pin and write - the motor should not be blocked mechanically for a long time.
If Your answer is "No": Toggle-off the pin, unplug the main power cord, then look at the (ipdb) manual, page-26 (ori-24), Game-Over-Relay, Switch "B", then look in Your pin (pin is toggled-off and the main power cord is unplugged !!!) at this switch --- wires soldered-on ? contact-points clean ? move one of the armature plates - move the other armature plate - do this several times - when switch "B" closes - TRUELY closed ?
Then hands off, plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - question: Does the swinging target swings ? Write about. Greetings Rolf

Thanks Rolf. I’ll be home in 2 hours to go through each step you talked about. The strange thing is that the Swinging target worked good until I began tinkering with the game for other issues. I will first see if it’s stuck under the plastic. Another thing you mentioned that is interesting is the Game over relay. If you look at the picture of that relay that I posted above (post #23) you’ll notice that the 2 switches on the far left are really mangled. The previous owner must have taken a pair of pliers to them. I wonder how much of problem they may be creating. Let me know what you think about that and I’ll update in a few hours. I understand it’s much later in Switzerland so if I don’t hear back later from you I understand. Thanks again.

#48 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea_Wolf
I look at the picture in post-23 - I give letters to the switches - left to right: "A", "B", "C", "D", "E", "F" --- I look at the drawing of Game-Over-Relay in the ipdb-manual at page-26 (ori-24) - the switches are drawn "mirrored" --- Switch "A" and switch "B" in Your pin are really mangled - AND Switch-B is the one for the swinging target motor ...
Have the pin toggled-off AND the line-cord unplugged (Safety Reasons) --- use a stripe of fine sandpaper and fold the stripe - the upperside of the folded stripe is sandpaper and the lower side is sandpaper ---put the stripe inbetween the contactpoints (then actuate the armature so the switch is closed) - and move the stripe of sandpaper back and forth - clean the contactpoints. In the picture in post-23 the switch looks to be truely closed - I hope for luck and the switch works after cleaning - and we can live with the mangled switches. This is my last post for today, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

Awesome Rolf. That is great to know about what switch b does on the game over relay. I was hoping that the mangled switches were part of the problem. I’ll do what you said and update later. Thanks.

#49 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea_Wolf
I look at the picture in post-23 - I give letters to the switches - left to right: "A", "B", "C", "D", "E", "F" --- I look at the drawing of Game-Over-Relay in the ipdb-manual at page-26 (ori-24) - the switches are drawn "mirrored" --- Switch "A" and switch "B" in Your pin are really mangled - AND Switch-B is the one for the swinging target motor ...
Have the pin toggled-off AND the line-cord unplugged (Safety Reasons) --- use a stripe of fine sandpaper and fold the stripe - the upperside of the folded stripe is sandpaper and the lower side is sandpaper ---put the stripe inbetween the contactpoints (then actuate the armature so the switch is closed) - and move the stripe of sandpaper back and forth - clean the contactpoints. In the picture in post-23 the switch looks to be truely closed - I hope for luck and the switch works after cleaning - and we can live with the mangled switches. This is my last post for today, till tomorrow, greetings Rolf

You nailed it Rolf! I cleaned and slightly adjusted the mangled A and B switches and the Swinging Target started working again. Not only that but the score reels reset to zero and the score motor stops running as it should as well as the 2 relays in the back. My only issues left now are with the Extra Ball and 1000 point Spinner light coming on way too early. And of course the weak ball return kicker. I’ve learned the Set-up relay goes to those 2 things. I’ll wait for more advice but I’m thrilled. I can’t thank you and Currieddog enough for all the valuable advice. I’ve learned a lot in a short time thanks to you 2 and the others in this thread. Thanks HowardR and Cheddar!

#50 5 years ago

A pic of the beautiful patient.

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#52 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea-Wolf
great - You cleaned an adjusted and most of the faults are fixed. I am not sure what exactly You mean on "Extraball / Spinner Light way too early". See the JPG: We are playing a ball - respectively use a finger to simulate where the ball rolls / hit. The Swinging Target swings and You could (/ can) hit the Swinging Target with a finger. I don't like to fumble on a Swinging Target - there is an alternative: See the "pink Z" - a standup leaf switch behind the rubber - there we get 50 points AND: The lights "my pink Y" turn on or turn off --- make the "my pink Y" lit. Now when You simulate "ball rolls through an 'lighted pink Y lane' ": You get what You get when hitting the Swinging Target.
See the lights below the Swinging Target "yellow 5000, milkywhite, milkywhite, red 5000, etc." Here the pin always steps one step to the right - whenever You hit the Swinging Target / "ball rolls through an 'lighted pink Y lane' ". You always get a bonus and 1000 or 5000 points.
This stepping the light does not reset when starting a new game - we have simply lighted the light lit at end of the game before.
When the stepped light is on a "red 5000": Two Invitation-Lights are lit: On the spinner NOW You get thousands of points --- on top of the playfield the middle lane is lighted "when the ball rolls through here You then get an Extraball". See the bottom of the JPG, my red dot: When You have the ball rolled trhough: "Same Player shoots again" is lit.
When on the stepped light below the Swinging Target You make an "A" or "B" or "C": The Invitation lights (my orange dots) on the left and on the right inform You: Here on the Eject-Holes You now can make double bonus. The ipdb manual has information to change "liberal" or "conservative".
Please give more details to the "problems in the pin". Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Thanks Rolf for your latest post. The problems that are left with the machine are 3 things.
1. The middle rollover lane at the top (which says Extra Ball when lit) lights up almost immediately after shooting a ball.
2. The 1000 point light under the Spinner on the left of playfield lights up almost immediately as well at the beginning of a game without me earning either light to come on. I also had a game last night where the left outlane ‘Special’ light came on almost immediately after I shot a ball up top. Something seems to be tripping these lights.
3. The ball return kickout to the shooter lane is weak. It fires but it doesn’t kick with much force and therefore it takes 4-5 pulses to finally get the ball to the shooter lane and it barely gets there.

Not sure how to address these issues.

Thanks for the diagram and explanation on the scoring.

#54 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Check this circuit for problem #1. And for the weak kickout, did you check the things I noted about that in past posts?
I had a problem with that upper extra ball RO coming on, along with it giving double-bonus on the side kickouts early, that turned out to be a short. This could be similar, so look carefully for things touching that shouldn't.
[quoted image]

Thanks, I will check that circuit when I get off work for the Extra Ball light coming on early. Also I did check the M/B switch on the outhole relay but I will check again and gently clean the switches again. The score motor switches have got me scared a little so I probably need to check again. I’m hesitant because I’m afraid to mess up anything down there. I will update this evening. Again, all help is greatly appreciated.

#56 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea_Wolf , currieddog
the following text I have written not knowing post-53, post-54.
Sea-Wolf - I was hoping for luck - You not knowing the ruleset - claiming "fault" what is normal when playing. Well, no luck.
The Outhole-Kicker, Ball-Release-Coil: See the manual in ipdb, page-16 (ori-14) Jones-Plug "wire-BLU-WH-4" on position right-6 on the size-20-jack - corrosion ?
The other problems: The ipdb-manual on page-15 (ori-13) informs me "Set-Up-Relay is mounted on the underneathside of the playfield". Have the pin toggled-off, lift the playfield and watch the Set-Up-Relay - You toggle-on and start a game --- does the Set-Up-Relay pulls-in ? It is allowed to pull-in when "JPG in post-51, one of the red dots below the swinging target IS LIT". And maybe it is allowed to pull-in on other position on stepped light. A bit complicated - schematics 16-17 / D-E: I see an Adj-Jack in the schematics involved. Does Your Set-Up-Relay pulls-in ?
Helpful for troubleshooting is the information (I do not know yet) - when You have a ball in play: Can You step on the stepped light below the Swinging Target ? Then toggle-off the main power switch - then toggle-on, start a new game ?
It would make troubleshooting easyer when You step that light to position "just a position to the right of yellow dot (JPG in post-51) --- this position I also can call "first milky-white dot on the pins "A". Having the light in that position - toggling-off, then toggling-on, start a new game - does Your Set-Up-Relay pulls-in ?
It is too late to wait for Your answer and then write another post ... This is my last post for today, greetings Rolf

Thanks Rolf. I will check the workings of the Set up relay and attempt to step up the light you mentioned below the Swinging Target, along with what Currieddog suggested. I’ll be home from work in a couple of hours and update soon. This game was pretty clean for the most part when I bought it other than the 2 mangled switches on the Game Over Relay but I think it also sat idle in the previous owner’s garage for a long time. Talk soon.

#58 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Loosen the two screws that are on the switch stack first and clean the contacts with 600# sandpaper and/or a swab with 91# rubbing alcohol. Hold the sides of the stack when re-tightening the screws to make sure that everything is lined up correctly.

I will nervously do.

#59 5 years ago
Quoted from currieddog:

Check this circuit for problem #1. And for the weak kickout, did you check the things I noted about that in past posts?
I had a problem with that upper extra ball RO coming on, along with it giving double-bonus on the side kickouts early, that turned out to be a short. This could be similar, so look carefully for things touching that shouldn't.
[quoted image]

Update: Currieddog, you were right about the Extra Ball rollover light. The A and B switches on that relay had been messed with, which I didn’t notice before. Adjusted them slightly and bam. Now the game is scoring and lighting perfectly. I did clean the switches you mentioned that might be a problem for the ball return kickout and it’s still weak. I’m going to clean and wax the playfield, install the new flippers and bulbs and take some pictures by this weekend. I’ll also show a video without the apron on of the ball return kicker. Much appreciation for you and Rolf. For 400 bucks and a short drive, I think I got a beauty, thanks to your guys help.

#61 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea_Wolf
where are You with the Ball Return Kicker - Ball-Release-Coil ?
Read here http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#other at end "Williams Magic City" ...
I first would try the test "You use two Jumper-Wires and make the Kicker to kick at Your will" --- when the kicking is still no good: You most likely have a mechanical problem. Greetings Rolf
[quoted image]

Thanks Rolf. The kicker is still weak but at times it does it’s job. I took the apron off and manually tripped the kickout switch and without the ball in the outhole it kicks strongly. But with the ball laying ‘IN’ in the outhole, the weight of the ball makes it struggle to kick it over the the shooter lane. Sometimes it kicks it over on the first try but most of the time it takes 3-4 try’s to kick it over and not with a lot of force. Leading me to think it’s mechanical but it’s not launching upward and the coil plunger moves freely. The game is working great on all other fronts thanks to yours and Currieddog’s help!

#63 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea_Wolf
the Space Mission is one of the pins "starting every new ball with one bonus given" - so testing is a bit more complicated --- see the pulling Outhole-Relay and the turning motor and the closing of SCM-3A (Bonus Step-up) and the closing of SCM-4A (Ball Release), JPG in post-60.
The idea (post-60) is "holding with one hand one Jumper-Wire on its insulation, holding with the other hand the second Jumper-Wire on its insulation - then make connection (touching the bare ends of the two Jumper-Wires) and look how good the kicking is".
Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - lift the playfield - install "my brown Jumper-Wire" - clip on at switch on Outhole-Relay - take the other end of the Jumper-Wire around stuff in the pin - take the other end through the open coin door out into the open - let it hang loose, free, not touching metal. Do the same with "my blue Jumper-Wire". These two Jumper-Wires shall not touch each other.
Take the playfield down, put the ball into the outhole, plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - wait until the first ball is kicked over to the shooter alley. Take the ball out, lift the playfield, sneak-in a stripe of paper in between the contactpoints on the Outhole-Switch below the Outhole - this switch shall be open forever. Take the playfield down, lay the ball into the outhole --- then do the "touching the bare ends of the two Jumper-Wires and look how the ball is kicked over" --- any better ? Greetings Rolf

Sounds good. I’ll do this when I get home tonight. Update tomorrow. Thanks Rolf.

#64 5 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Sounds good. I’ll do this when I get home tonight. Update tomorrow. Thanks Rolf.

Amazingly Rolf, ( and I’m sure you and Currieddog are laughing. I finally cleaned the switch contacts that you both pointed out. But doing it a 3rd time seemed to energize the kickout to where it’s supposed to be.) thanks you rotten pinheads

I’m assuming that this game sat idle long enough that it just sieged up enough to where it just needed a good cleaning. Great
Lesson for this newbie to learn. This game is ridiculously awesome. Close this case.

#65 5 years ago
Quoted from rolf_martin_062:

Hi Sea_Wolf
the Space Mission is one of the pins "starting every new ball with one bonus given" - so testing is a bit more complicated --- see the pulling Outhole-Relay and the turning motor and the closing of SCM-3A (Bonus Step-up) and the closing of SCM-4A (Ball Release), JPG in post-60.
The idea (post-60) is "holding with one hand one Jumper-Wire on its insulation, holding with the other hand the second Jumper-Wire on its insulation - then make connection (touching the bare ends of the two Jumper-Wires) and look how good the kicking is".
Toggle-off the pin and unplug the main power cord (Safety Reasons) - lift the playfield - install "my brown Jumper-Wire" - clip on at switch on Outhole-Relay - take the other end of the Jumper-Wire around stuff in the pin - take the other end through the open coin door out into the open - let it hang loose, free, not touching metal. Do the same with "my blue Jumper-Wire". These two Jumper-Wires shall not touch each other.
Take the playfield down, put the ball into the outhole, plug-in, toggle-on, start a game - wait until the first ball is kicked over to the shooter alley. Take the ball out, lift the playfield, sneak-in a stripe of paper in between the contactpoints on the Outhole-Switch below the Outhole - this switch shall be open forever. Take the playfield down, lay the ball into the outhole --- then do the "touching the bare ends of the two Jumper-Wires and look how the ball is kicked over" --- any better ? Greetings Rolf

Sorry i miss quoted Rolf. Read below, and thanks.

#66 5 years ago
Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

Sorry i misquoted Rolf. Read below, and thanks.

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