Space invaders help

(Topic ID: 226375)

Space invaders help


By Bodypop

75 days ago



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  • 102 posts
  • 14 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 days ago by Bodypop
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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There are 102 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 66 days ago
Quoted from Bodypop:

Sound sorted and solenoids ,connector issue .getting very exciting !
So just the these score boards that were working when I got it and not a lot else
.
So would the fuse in driver board cause this ,even with light sequencing working ?
I’m not 100% which way to get the voltages on the scoreboards and ground

See section " 3n. When things don't work: High Voltage Section Problems " at the link below. Actually, you should read all the tech docs. These not only answer your questions, but there are also some upgrades that should be performed to these boards.
http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index3.htm

#52 65 days ago

So ,all voltage is there ,230 at rectifier
230 at sd board .but 230 at each side of fuse ?
The adjustment pot seems to only Finely adjust.
No volts at all at the tp2 on score boards

#53 65 days ago

You might have missed this in the text from the link I posted earlier:
If your high voltage section is showing really high voltage (like 230+ volts), often the 2N3584 and the 2N3440's have failed. The 2N3440's are easy to get. So what can be used to replace the hard to get 2N3584?

There is a replacement transistor, the BUX84. This transistor has a TO-220 style case (instead of a TO-66 case). You may need to enlarge the heat sink's base/emitter holes to make sure there is plenty of clearance for the new BUX84's base and emitter leads. You can also cut off the BUX84's collector (center) lead. You can do this because the BUX84's metal tab, which bolts to the circuit board, will provide the transistor's collector connection. Remember to also insulate the heat sink from the transistor's (collector) metal tab. Use a nylon washer between the transistor's metal tab and the heat sink. Also use a small piece of heat shrink tubing to go over the bolt that holds the transistor to the heat sink.

If you don't want to go through the hassle of repairing the HV, you can always replace the displays with LED aftermarket replacements. Then you don't need the HV section on the supply at all.

#54 65 days ago

The fuse on the SD board is not correct, and yes, that would cause your displays to not work if they are not getting 190vDC.

You should be replacing or rebuilding the SD board. You need to replace the filter caps if they are original and modify the fuse holder to use a standard size fuse. Replacement SD boards are common. You can go that route if you prefer.

#55 64 days ago

I’ve been told that the displays will still run with 230 volts but just not last as long ?

#56 64 days ago
Quoted from Bodypop:

I’ve been told that the displays will still run with 230 volts but just not last as long ?

The 230 volts you are seeing is before the regulator, which should adjust between 170VDC and 190VDC. Ideally you want to adjust this closer to 170VDC to prolong the life of the displays. If 230 was actually getting there, that's likely to burn out the displays quite quickly, but you said there was nothing at the HV test points on the displays, that's probably because the regulator section is kaputz. If your displays were getting overvoltaged for too long, they may be outgassed already. You might want to post some clear pictures of those displays, because if we can reasonably determine this you might want to make a different choice as to how to go about getting the game going. Original working gas displays are harder to come by, and often quite expensive.

#57 64 days ago

Got it mate thanks
I’ll get some pics of the displays soon and if you can judge on them that would be great
I’ve seen a few solenoid boards on eBay tested working ,so if displays are ok ,il throw one of them In
They were working at first but a bit of flicker on the main on
So there’s cheaper replacements if going down the led route ?
Il get the pics first ,my head hurts thinking lol

#58 64 days ago

I figured I would throw my experience with a Space Invaders I'm currently rebuilding in here as well.
When I first got mine and started testing things, my HV sections of the SDB did not work correct at all. Only one display did anything, and it didn't do it right.
I had to replace the Caps and the pot trimmer along with the headers on the board and repin connectors in the harness to get mine right.
Specifically I replaced C26, R35, RT1, Fuse clips and fuse, pin headers and re-pinned connectors.
I'm still using the original board, but with those components replaced.
It still has all 5 of the original displays in it and none are out-gassed or burned (surprisingly).
Once working, I was able to turn the pot trimmer down and got my displays stable at around 165v measured from TP2.
I'll also note that I upgraded some of the resistors on my display boards (the one attached to each display), from 1/4w to 1/2w and re-flowed the solder on most points and replaced the headers. Pretty sure I had a bad decoder chip on my Player 1 display as well that I socketed and replaced. The resistors were replaced as the old ones were Very black and a higher wattage should help with heat issues.
Sorry if that is a ton of information, but wanted to include anything I did in case you needed it.
Good Luck!

#59 64 days ago
Quoted from JDissen87:

I figured I would throw my experience with a Space Invaders I'm currently rebuilding in here as well.
...
Sorry if that is a ton of information, but wanted to include anything I did in case you needed it.
Good Luck!

^ This is all good info. Typically I find it justifiable to repair the HV and maybe replace a display if only one is outgassed. Then you can get your original display set up and running for the cost of a handful of parts, at often under a $100. When you have to replace two or more displays and repair the HV, you get up near the cost of a digital display set. With a digital display set, you don't have to worry about another display outgassing in the future, and you don't have to repair the HV on the SDB. It just makes good economic sense for the long run. That's why I suggested looking at or testing the displays themselves first...so if you decided to go the route of digital displays you didn't waste time troubleshooting and replacing parts on the HV.

#60 64 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

^ This is all good info. Typically I find it justifiable to repair the HV and maybe replace a display if only one is outgassed. Then you can get your original display set up and running for the cost of a handful of parts, at often under a $100. When you have to replace two or more displays and repair the HV, you get up near the cost of a digital display set. With a digital display set, you don't have to worry about another display outgassing in the future, and you don't have to repair the HV on the SDB. It just makes good economic sense for the long run. That's why I suggested looking at or testing the displays themselves first...so if you decided to go the route of digital displays you didn't waste time troubleshooting and replacing parts on the HV.

I agree with this.
Going with some led displays over the old plasma gas ones will definitely help reduce issues on the SDB board (no HV section to worry about) and ease up on the rectifier board a bit at the same time. Finding used original displays does seem to be getting a bit difficult. Well, assuming you don't want displays that are burnt our starting to outgas. That being said, they are definitely still out there.
I looked at led displays for my game, but my displays worked (tested them all in another game) and I honestly just love the look of the originals. I've seen some of the led displays get close to the color and glow of an original, but I've yet to see one get it dead on.
If you aren't concerned about keeping it original or keeping the plasma displays, you could replace them with the new digital led displays fairly cheaply and help future proof your game a bit.

#61 64 days ago

So if I was to fit the led displays ,what do they run off ,
I’ve two other issues ,the sequenced lights and the roll over switches are registering
Anyway here’s some pics of the displays and sd board if anyone can say if they look bad thanks

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#62 64 days ago

Well you have cold solder joins for sure that need to be fixed. That is from the first picture you posted of the bottom of a display board. Top right looks like it needs a reflow to me. I would do the same check on every board you have in there to be honest.
Cold_solder (resized).png

Both of those capacitors need to be replaced for sure. Those both look original. The fuse clips look ok, but I would replace those too and drop a new fuse in.
SDB_Updates (resized).png

These are the resistors i was talking about (I'm pretty sure at least, I would need to double check later to be sure, but you can look it up as well, its a common thing mentioned to do to these boards) and yours don't look too bad. They are a little darker but not horribly so, so you'd probably be fine for now. Mine were boarder-line black and had shaded the board around them a few shades darker as well from the heat.
Display_board_resistor (resized).png

Beyond what I mentioned above, you probably will want to replace the headers on the Display boards and the SDB along with repinning the connectors. Remember to use the trifurcon connectors (not sure I spelled that right) when you can as they are the better replacement. All the parts to do that will not cost much as they are all fairly standard items. You can reference the rebuild guide that @vid1900 made for the SDB as well https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-quick-bally-driver-board-repair-bulletproofing
That is the guide I followed when I rebuild my SDB board and it has worked perfectly since then.

#63 64 days ago

If you rebuild the HV section on your SDB, do not set the voltage below 170volts. Yea, the displays will last longer, but you'll blow out the HV section again. Below 170v puts too much stress on the transistors in the HV section.

#64 64 days ago

looking at those pictures again, your header pins actually look pretty corroded. That could definitely cause issues.
display_headers (resized).png
I'd replace them, several sites sell the board parts, GPE (https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/default.asp) and BigDaddy (http://www.bigdaddy-enterprises.com) have kits you can purchase as well that will have all the parts or you can order individually.

#65 64 days ago

Cheers guys ,if one score board goes out ,does it put them all out ?
I tried removing one at a time to see if anything changed .it didn’t
So when the power leaves the sd board ,where does it go next? Mpu ? Or straight to the scoreboards .id like to rule those connectors out too .is j1 on the mpu for t he scoreboards ,are there certain pins for each score board or any of those block connectors that could cause it .
Just before I shell out for a sd board and rebuild the score boards
Would sanding them header pins help as a temp fix

#66 64 days ago

Do not send the header ouns, this removes the plating. They need to be replaced. Your going to need to repin the female connectors on the cable harnesses regardless if you use original displays or upgrade to digital LED displays.

The high voltage goes straight to the displays. Digital LED displays run off the 5V logic power already present in the harness connectors, this construction ignores the high voltage pins in the connectors. They are plug-n-play.

#67 64 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Do not send the header ouns, this removes the plating. They need to be replaced. Your going to need to repin the female connectors on the cable harnesses regardless if you use original displays or upgrade to digital LED displays.

Agreed, sanding those header pins is not a good idea. Once the plating is gone then they are done. Replace the wiring harness connector pins no matter what as they will be needed irrelevant of what displays you use.
As far as I know, the 170v or higher voltage goes from the SDB straight to the displays, it does not go through the MPU. Your data pins however will come from the MPU. You should be able to unplug displays and still have the others work, just DONT do that with the power on. So you can test with just a single display to make sure they work. Once you get power to the displays, you should get some neck glow to show that they are working even if they dont display any numbers.

#68 60 days ago

Quick update
Got score boards working ,pin on sd board in wrong place would you believe !
The red wire .
So all score boards working now ,we’ll bottom right flickers and third digit missing In all them
Still no flashing lights or roll over switches on playfield .
Any idea there ?

#69 60 days ago

Since you found one pin on the wrong place, I highly recommend checking every connector to verify the pin outs are correct.

It sounds like you may have dodged a bullet with that wire in the wrong spot.

#70 59 days ago

Yes did dodge a bullet I think ,though not convinced the sd board is working right ,if I’m still not getting the flashing lights
I’ve got one ordered anyway ,il go through those connections before fitting

#71 58 days ago

If the flashing lights you are referring to are in the head, those lights are controlled by the aux light board.

#72 57 days ago

Oh really ,thanks for that .gives me something to look at while I wait on the new sd board
One last question ,do you know where the roll over switches come from ?
None of them are working ,I went through them all yesterday and none are stuck on or off

#73 57 days ago
Quoted from Bodypop:

Oh really ,thanks for that .gives me something to look at while I wait on the new sd board
One last question ,do you know where the roll over switches come from ?
None of them are working ,I went through them all yesterday and none are stuck on or off

If none of the rollovers are working, they are stuck off, right? The 3 top rollover switches are in the same column, along with the targets. Are the targets working or not? A4J2-3 is the connector pin number for the entire column, so if none of the targets or rollovers are working, that would be the connector to check. White wire with blue stripe. Also, check each switch to see if this wire is making a bad connection somewhere. The switches are daisy chained so one bad wire can affect them all.

#74 57 days ago

Yes that’s right the targets aren’t working either
Il have a check at that .thanks

#75 57 days ago

Well targets are working now .still no rollovers though
A4j2-3 ? What board is that on

#76 57 days ago

Its a code. A4J2-3. Means board A4, connector J2, pin number 3

A2 P.S. = Power Supply and Regulator board.
A3 S.D. = Solenoid Driver/Voltage Regulator board.
A4 MPU = MPU board.
A5 L.D. = Lamp Driver board.
A1 Dsp = Display Driver boards connected to the score displays.
A8 Snd = Sound board.

You should read the tech guides, that's where you find all this great info . http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/ballyss/rep/index1.htm

#77 56 days ago

Thanks mate .got the rollovers working thanks
I have done some reading but it can get overwhelming .
Hopefully this thread will be of use to someone else at least too

So everything is now working except right sling shot solenoid (doesn’t work in test ,changed solenoid too )

Right hand side big bumper
(Works in test mode )

Third didgit from right on each score board
And those flashing lights

So some good progress

#78 50 days ago

Is there wiring diagram available for the aux board for the lighting
I got a new sd board and I’m still at the same stage
Something just doesn’t look right with aux wiring
Even some good photos of connectors would be a great help to finish this

Also any idea on the score boards ,third digit from left missing on all

#79 50 days ago
Quoted from Bodypop:

Also any idea on the score boards ,third digit from left missing on all

At MPU board connector J1, the 4th wire (green in color) from the top activates the third digit from the left at all displays. Sounds like you need to re-terminate that green wire at that MPU J1 connector.

Quoted from Bodypop:

Is there wiring diagram available for the aux board for the lighting

It's in the Space Invaders schematics you can download from ipdb.org - the page in question is attached below: The wire colors are represented by two digit codes. First digit (left) indicates the primary color, second digit (right) indicates the stripe/band color. So eg, a connector wire listed with "74" is an orange-green wire. I pasted the wire color code table at the bottom of that diagram.
SpaceInvadersAuxLampBoard.png

#80 49 days ago

Great stuff mate thank you
I should of said third digit from right ,I take it is one of the wires below the one you mentioned as I was moving that connector last night and changed a couple of connectors but haven’t hit on the right one yet

#81 49 days ago

That diagram and colours will be a great help,thanks for putting me The right direction and making it easy .

#82 49 days ago
Quoted from Bodypop:

I should of said third digit from right

Third digit from the right is the third wire (yellow) from the top.
Display digits are counted from right to left on these systems. So first digit from the right comes from the wire at MPU J1 pin 1. Sixth digit is the wire at MPU J1 pin 6, etc.

Download the manual and schematics from the documentation section here if you don't have them:
https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2252

#83 49 days ago

Make sure the contact is 100%.

#84 48 days ago

Cool I’ve got that didgit sorted

Just to go through these lights on back box now today when I’ve a chance

#85 48 days ago

This may or may not be helpful, but I just got the chaser lights working on my SI this weekend after a lot of repinning and such. It was actually some DeoxIT on the block connectors that finally sorted out the few missing chase lights I had.

#86 48 days ago

Definitely check the lamp power coming off the rectifier board going to the backbox/insert board.

#87 45 days ago

I tried some de oxit ,but hasn’t helped
I’ve also taken a step backwards
The solenoid is sticking on ,to on left sling shot now and I’ve lost sound .
When taking the left slingshot out of the equation another sticks on
I was messing with connectors again too
The right slingshot was sticking on when I got it ,I disconnected it ,but now it’s connected all this madness is happening
I’ve lost some of right side playfield lights too

#88 45 days ago

Deoxit can help, but in the long term is just a bandaid. It won't fix connectors that have lost their spring tension or plating either. You really should get the appropriate connectors and repin them all.

http://www.pinrepair.com/connect/

Take one problem at a time and slow down. It's like getting an old car...and with the miles of wiring, switches and things - you may have many problems to iron out and make it reliable.

#89 45 days ago

When you get your general illumination fixed the sound should return.
***EDIT: Disregard the above. Not accurate***

#90 45 days ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

When you get your general illumination fixed the sound should return.

The GI is AC voltage. Sound is run off DC voltage. Most "dead" Bally games of this series will have the GI working and nothing else, so why do you say this?

#91 45 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

The GI is AC voltage. Sound is run off DC voltage. Most "dead" Belly games of this series will have the GI working and nothing else, so why do you say this?

Oops. My mistake. I was thinking it used the GI to make a -12V.
I'll fix that above...

#92 44 days ago
Quoted from cody_chunn:

Oops. My mistake. I was thinking it used the GI to make a -12V.
I'll fix that above...

Made me a little crazy for a moment

#93 42 days ago

This has now made me a little crazy !
The flipping rotten dog replacement solenoid board is making the solenoids stick on !
I tried the old board in out of curiosity and the solenoids are ok .

#94 40 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

Deoxit can help, but in the long term is just a bandaid. It won't fix connectors that have lost their spring tension or plating either. You really should get the appropriate connectors and repin them all.
http://www.pinrepair.com/connect/
Take one problem at a time and slow down. It's like getting an old car...and with the miles of wiring, switches and things - you may have many problems to iron out and make it reliable.

This is absolutely correct. In my case I put some deoxit in while trying to figure out my own weird gremlins and found that it was that particular connector that was the reason for all my ghosts. I ordered all new connectors and pins from Great Plains and repinned everything over the weekend and now my SI is finished.

As for the OP it really sounds like a combination of switch and wiring issues. Having just finished chasing the ghosts out of my own machine I don’t envy him. However, I am willing to make myself available for video chat or a phone call if I can be of any assistance. I know I could have used the help lol. PM me if I can be of any assistance.

#95 40 days ago

It's one of those tedious jobs, but its cheap and makes troubleshooting any future repairs *easier* if you are not dealing with flaky intermittent connectors.

1 week later
#96 31 days ago

Thanks tenjuna !
I’m gonna get back at it soon .
Did u change every connector in there in back box and at power supply

#97 31 days ago
Quoted from Bodypop:

Thanks tenjuna !
I’m gonna get back at it soon .
Did u change every connector in there in back box and at power supply

When I had my Space Invaders, I replaced every connector on the rectifier and SDB. I also replaced the connector for power to the MPU. I also replaced the connectors to the score displays because they were flaky too.

Repinning and replacing all connectors is a.good idea, but not always necessary...but I do recommend at minimum replacing all critical power connectors.

#98 31 days ago
Quoted from wayout440:

When I had my Space Invaders, I replaced every connector on the rectifier and SDB. I also replaced the connector for power to the MPU. I also replaced the connectors to the score displays because they were flaky too.

I did this on a Silverball Mania, same generation of Bally, many issues went away after the job. It's just something that has to be done on these games.

#99 31 days ago

Yes, I ended up replacing every single connector and pin, it took so many hours lol. But it did fix quite a few very odd problems I was having.

4 weeks later
#100 2 days ago

Back at this again ,ive replaced all the mpu connectors and sd board connectors so far
I’m gonna attempt these block connectors next .is there a special tool needed to get the pins and sockets out ?
I’d like to use the blocks again
There seem to be a think orange wire missing from the block
After this I will tackle the connectors on the rectifier .anyone know what size or what they are called so I can order them

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